Provo MSA Development Thread

[urbanboy]

Most areas developed after the invention of the automobile are hodge-podge.

Hopefully our valleys won't be filled up with sprawl, but will redevelop and become more efficient, saving room to grow food. Hopefully our population doesn't grow like is projected; once we run out of oil we'll be sorry-out-of-luck and will need to grow our own food locally. That might even prove difficult if you don't live near a creek, river, or canal. With too many people, we might not have enough water to sustain everyone.

I just watched a very important film last night called "Collapse." I insist everyone on here watch it as soon as possible.

[jtrent77]

Originally Posted by urbanboy

Most areas developed after the invention of the automobile are hodge-podge.

Hopefully our valleys won't be filled up with sprawl, but will redevelop and become more efficient, saving room to grow food. Hopefully our population doesn't grow like is projected; once we run out of oil we'll be sorry-out-of-luck and will need to grow our own food locally. That might even prove difficult if you don't live near a creek, river, or canal. With too many people, we might not have enough water to sustain everyone.

I just watched a very important film last night called "Collapse." I insist everyone on here watch it as soon as possible.

When/if we do run out of oil (and I say if not because I think there is an unlimited supply, but rather if we stick with it long enough to run out) I am sure that man will provide a new method to provide energy to get from point a to point b. Necessity is the mother of invention after all. Plus we already have technologies that if further developed could do it--mag lev / electric trains; hydrogen fuel cells; etc. While these technologies are no where near at a level that will replace oil anytime soon, they can be further developed over time to be better and/or discover new alternatives. The problem is, we as a people have become lazy and will only force ourselves to find the new methods when required.

As far as someone "insisting" I do something....well that is usually a turn off completely.

[cololi]

There is only one person that can insist that I do anything and it isn't you UB.

[urbanboy]

Oh, all I meant by "insist" is: I strongly recommend.

[urbanboy]

Originally Posted by jtrent77

When/if we do run out of oil (and I say if not because I think there is an unlimited supply, but rather if we stick with it long enough to run out) I am sure that man will provide a new method to provide energy to get from point a to point b. Necessity is the mother of invention after all. Plus we already have technologies that if further developed could do it--mag lev / electric trains; hydrogen fuel cells; etc. While these technologies are no where near at a level that will replace oil anytime soon, they can be further developed over time to be better and/or discover new alternatives. The problem is, we as a people have become lazy and will only force ourselves to find the new methods when required.

As far as someone "insisting" I do something....well that is usually a turn off completely.

How can you make any of the things you mentioned without oil?

[TonyAnderson]

Originally Posted by Wasatch_One

....aaaand, Utah County will someday out-populate SL County because of its sheer size. Hopefully we don't pick on SL County at that time

I've wondered about that. Does it really have more room when looking at actual developable area? SL County still seems to have a lot of room when considering the west side, and parts of the south, plus perhaps more desire to develop up.

[i-215]

once we run out of oil we'll be sorry-out-of-luck and will need to grow our own food locally. That might even prove difficult if you don't live near a creek, river, or canal. With too many people, we might not have enough water to sustain everyone.

If THAT happens, the carrying capacity of the earth will drop to about 1/4 of what it is now. Everyone is toast.

Honestly, we've never run out of a resource. Once a fuel source becomes truly scarce, the price shoots through the roof and we switch to the next cheapest alternative. Oil is really cheap. When the day comes that it's really expensive, we'll switch.

We won't run out of oil overnight. It'll happen over decades, allowing a transition period to a new method.

[Future Mayor]

Originally Posted by TonyAnderson

I've wondered about that. Does it really have more room when looking at actual developable area? SL County still seems to have a lot of room when considering the west side, and parts of the south, plus perhaps more desire to develop up.

The area west of Lake Mountain and West Mountain (west of Payson) the Eagle Mtn, Genola, Goshan area is all part of Utah County. It goes much further west than SL County.

[TonyAnderson]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

The area west of Lake Mountain and West Mountain (west of Payson) the Eagle Mtn, Genola, Goshan area is all part of Utah County. It goes much further west than SL County.

I know, but the lake and mountains sort of equal it out it would seem

[delts145]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

The area west of Lake Mountain and West Mountain (west of Payson) the Eagle Mtn, Genola, Goshan area is all part of Utah County. It goes much further west than SL County.

I don't know the exact sq. mile radius, but it does blow my mind when I stand at a higher viewing point in Cedar Valley. It seems like it's own Salt Lake Valley unto itself. The benches also seem much more developable too. They have a very gradual slope, much more so than the benches along the Wasatch of much of Utah Valley. I would say that Cedar Valley is far more free for unimpeded development than Utah Valley. It always amazes me when I view Utah Valley from up above on the Timp. trail etc. You really get a perspective of how much of the Valley is gobbled up by Utah Lake.

[urbanboy]

Originally Posted by i-215

If THAT happens, the carrying capacity of the earth will drop to about 1/4 of what it is now. Everyone is toast.

Honestly, we've never run out of a resource. Once a fuel source becomes truly scarce, the price shoots through the roof and we switch to the next cheapest alternative. Oil is really cheap. When the day comes that it's really expensive, we'll switch.

We won't run out of oil overnight. It'll happen over decades, allowing a transition period to a new method.

switch to what? please answer.

Also, oil production is on a bell curve; we're already past peak oil, and oil production is declining much faster than it's incline. The fact that there are more automobiles/industrialized vehicles in the market, and more production manufacturing processes that rely on oil today than there were durring the incline of oil production means the decline would not only be faster, but it will also be more hard hitting. I'm concerned we as a community are unprepared for this.

[Future Mayor]

Maybe we will be switching to a technology that hasn't been developed yet. Just because we don't know what we will switch to doesn't mean that it won't happen.

While I am no proponent for continued sprawl, we don't know definitively, either way, exactly how much oil is truly out there. We could be, just as you said UB on the down slope of the curve, or we could simply be scratching the surface.

We need to develop new and cleaner technologies, and I feel that those will come over a period of time. Looking back 10 years the Prius was one of only a few Hybrid cars available, now just 10 years later ever car company has one if not multiple hybrid cars, and others are developing hydro cars and electric cars.

[urbanboy]

I don't mean to burst your optimistic bubble , but I'm pretty certain the earth has been fully explored. the Sadi Arabian peninsula, which had the largest oil reserve, has already moved to off shore drilling. Off shore drilling is a very risky and expensive process. It is a gamble; most of the time this type of drilling is not cost effective. Having so much faith in the unknown seems a little irresponsible.

[scottharding]

Originally Posted by poodledoodledude

ok-- i'll bite....

scott, as per your comment above: isnt' that the pot calling the kettle black? as you see utah county, so sees the rest of the nation about utah...INCLUDING salt lake. i get so tired...SO TIRED...of salt lake people "bashing" us utah county folk-- as if we are some "off-the-wall-back-woods, red-necked-nut-jobs-who-don't-wear-shoes-to-the-store" type of people. again, as you see provo, the rest of the nation thinks the same about salt lake.

in case you haven't noticed, i'll point it out for you: salt lake is NO san francisco, portland, or seattle...hell, it's not even a las vegas, denver, miami, or st. louis. does that mean salt lake is BAD?! is it HIDEOUS?! of course not....most adults learn to appreciate salt lake for what it IS...rather than what it is NOT....

it might help you if you do the same for provo/utah county. appreciate it for what it IS, rather than what it is NOT. yes, we are NO salt lake. either is ogden...either is price, moab, or st. george. each community has it's own strengths. salt lake is my capital city. i don't live there, but it's a face for utah=all of US!! what happens in salt lake is important for ALL OF US IN UTAH...not just salt lakers.

i enjoy salt lake. but, it's not the ONLY place where you find fun, good, things to do. i bet you had NO idea, that the worlds largest dinosaur museum was 20 mins from your front door. where?! in UTAH COUNTY!!! i also bet, that you have NO idea the june sucker fish is found no where else in the WORLD, but ONLY found in utah lake-- in UTAH COUNTY!! i also bet that you wouldn't know that one of the worlds PREMIERE hang gliding places on earth is on the south slopes in northern UTAH COUNTY!!! did you also know, that because of UTAH COUNTY's lake, UTAH LAKE, the indigenous fish (june sucker) saved the lives of THOUSANDS of souls when the mormon settlers first arrived here? did you also realize, that utah county...yes, UTAH COUNTY has the most symmetrical mountain range in the world? also, that Utah County has been on about every top ten business friendly list you can think of for the past 10 YEARS?! ...can't be too hideous of it's pushing 550,000 people, and one of the FASTEST growing counties in the country.

bash it all you want, but utah county is here to stay, and help ALL of utah progress. what's good for one city, is good for out state.

please, please, PLEASE, get out of the "city" and come down and spend some time with the rest of us and you may be surprised that there are some good folks down here, in this "hideous" place of UTAH COUNTY, which i'm PROUD to call home.

poodledoodledude

Taken me a couple of days to check in again. I know the conversation has steered away, but I want to rebuttle. Not to argue, but to clarify.

I don't see where from my post you got the notion that I think Salt Lake county is in much better shape than Utah county. Nor did I ever call Utah County folk rednecks. I said they have a suburban mentality. That doesn't make them back-woods hicks, it makes them typical of the demographic that dominates Utah County's population.
I'm very familiar with Utah County. I am well aware that the largest dinoraur museum as at Thanksgiving Point. I'm aware of what Point of the Mountain offers. It's interesting that you mention the Sucker Fish of Utah Lake in the midst of the debate over a bridge running over Utah Lake.
yes, I know that Utah County has some good things. I mentioned in my post that I think Downtown Provo and the UVU area are both very nice places. But my point was that, like so many cities that sprawled over the last several decades, there are areas that are poorly planned and very undesirable, despite being the centers of a populated area. State Street and Center street in Orem are optimum examples. Utah County is going to continue to grow at a pace that is way ahead of the national average, no doubt. And with that growth coming, why not improve the cities that exist, rather than continue to sprawl out in all directions, at the cost of the beauty of the area. I think Utah Lake is Utah Counties defining natural characteristic, and to run a bridge over it and build neighborhoods on all sides is a mistake.
My opinion.
Salt Lake City (not the county) despite it's many flaws, has developed a mentality of becoming better from within. It aspires to be a world-class city, however far from that it may be at this time. I think that's a good thing, a notion that citizens can rally around and participate in. But it requires recognizing the difference between smart growth and sprawl.

[delts145]

Scott, I think you have to kind of take it city by city in Utah Valley. It's pretty much the same in Salt Lake Valley also. There are certain cities, which are really doing some obvious improvements from within. Then there are others who seem hell bent on ignoring the need to do anything, but race toward a future devoid of historical or urban charm. I think we're seeing a long list of accomplishments developing in Provo. Alpine, has initiated many charming projects, and will continue to move forward as it can afford. I'm sure Future Mayor will tell you that Payson continues to make steady progress with preservation and restoration of their downtown core, as is Pleasant Grove. Fortunately, most of Utah Valley's cities have historical downtowns. As the valley continues to grow, it would seem that more and more emphasis is being placed on investing in those historical cores. I've seen good progress in certain cities over the past ten years, and in others the going is slower, but it is happening all over.
Also, no one can deny that the transportation picture in Utah Valley is changing rapidly. Honestly, I've never had a problem with getting around, at least in the northern end of the Valley. I do have to travel frequently between the different cities thoroughout the northern end of Utah County, and it has never been difficult. There have been occasions around Lehi, if your in certain areas during rush hours that are jammed, but that is being resolved as we are writing these posts. New and improved transportation and additional options such as FrontRunner are coming quickly.

Unlike many metros I have lived in, unsightly trash and personal property upkeep is not nearly as problematic in Utah Valley. People seem to be more tidy on the whole. My one concern is that of the over proliferation of powerlines. I know that this is a problem everywhere, but it is particularly noticeable in Utah Valley, where the jawdropping vistas need to be unimpeded.

[Erector]

Having just read the latest issue of the Utah Economic and Business Review, which is spotlighting agricultural activity along the Wasatch Front, there is a map that shows developable agricultural land in each Wasatch Front county. Just giving it the eye test, it appears that Utah County has more available farm land for future development than Salt Lake currently has land that is developed.

I remember working on the Envision Utah project back in the mid-nineties, Utah County was by far the biggest headache for long range planning of pretty much any county in the state.

[urbanboy]

I guess they don't believe in the long term...they must have been expecting a second coming or something like that.

It's really sad to me that most people only see farmland as potential development ie. subdivisions and big-box churches/retailers. I see the potential for our community to sustain itself by growing our own food.

[Future Mayor]

I'm am striving to implement programs that will allow for the continued preservation of many of the orchards that call southern Utah County home and large portions of Prime agricultural land in the area. Not all the land is ideal for farming but there are areas that have better agricultural soil than others and I will do whatever I can through ordinances and long range planning to allow those area to remain commercial viable for agriculture.

[Erector]

Originally Posted by urbanboy

I guess they don't believe in the long term...they must have been expecting a second coming or something like that.

It's really sad to me that most people only see farmland as potential development ie. subdivisions and big-box churches/retailers. I see the potential for our community to sustain itself by growing our own food.

I would agree with some of what you said. In long range planning you don't take into consideration any given parcel and say, "we will set this aside for an Urban Gardening Project." Instead you take the worst case scenario and assume that Bob the farmer will pass on, and his kids will sell off all 120 acres of farmland for maximum profit. Now the plan is how do we as a regional planning office see getting infrastructure, ie roads, and utilities to Bob's former farm land. Envision Utah tried to take into account, right of way's for mass transit, freeway's, and percentage of land set aside for parks and open space. The only solution to open space and parks, is on the shoulders of the individual municipalities forcing the developers to set aside a percentage of their project for open space and parks. To some extent it is working, but for the most part, the planners have their hands tied because the elected officials feel that if they support these restrictions, then their jobs could be in jeapardy. If the communities can make land swaps or just purchase this open space then great, but most of the time the smaller cities and towns need the development for tax revenue. That is one of the major problems with so many small incorporated communities in Utah County.

[Erector]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

I'm am striving to implement programs that will allow for the continued preservation of many of the orchards that call southern Utah County home and large portions of Prime agricultural land in the area. Not all the land is ideal for farming but there are areas that have better agricultural soil than others and I will do whatever I can through ordinances and long range planning to allow those area to remain commercial viable for agriculture.

Good luck with your preservation program, I think it would be fantastic if Payson is willing to invest in this orchard land. There is a town in Georgia, Collins IIRC, that did the same thing. They purchased 40 plus acres of peach orchard that was nearly bought up by a power provider for a sub-station. It is now protected and the citizens of the town have a harvest fesival where they come out and pick the fruit every August. The citizens purchase what they harvest as to allow the town's park's department to provide on going care for the trees.