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  #5321  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2010, 5:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Henry_Man View Post
And I blame (for a significant role) LRSP to the C-Line being underbuilt. It's SO painfully obvious. The YVR is in Richmond's jurisdiction and Richmond itself has numerous malls along No.3 Rd (there's A LOT of ridership on the C-Line esp on the weekends as well, which isn't really the case on M/E-Lines). The failure of LRSP to see this is just outright ridiculous.

LRSP itself is epic fail and is a perfect example of politically-motivated regional planning.
Remember that the consensus is to avoid intense poputlation growth on a flood plain. The C-line is some way provides some limit to that. it does allow some densification, putting less pressure on Richmond's ALR, but metro wants to focus growth on the burrad peninsula and surrey/langley, not necessarily in richmond, ladner, etc.
     
     
  #5322  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2010, 5:24 PM
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^ Does anyone know what is the long-term plan for WCE? Does Translink hope to renegotiate for more trains per day? Longer trains? Or just the status quo?
     
     
  #5323  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2010, 5:42 PM
officedweller officedweller is offline
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Originally Posted by BCPhil View Post
I totally understand what you are saying. It is important to shape growth by using transit.

The problem is doing it only at one end doesn't help. If you want to build transit at one end to encourage people to take it, it needs to go somewhere.
...
Oh, yeah, I know that.

I'm just saying that we shouldn't adopt just one theory with respect to building the lines (i.e. just building where there's the highest demand).
You definitely need to complete both ends of the M-Line (at least to Arbutus in the west).

If the M-Line does go all the way to UBC (and I think it should be SkyTrain if it does, for the one seat ride) it would be nice to get a commitment from the City of Vancouver to densify all of the intermediate stations (and by densify I mean at least 6-15 storey mid-rises like those currently being built in central Broadway).

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Henry_Man View Post
I wouldn't bet a dime on the LRSP. It literally screwed up on the predictions of Richmond's growth. Remember that Richmond wasn't EVEN on LRSP? But when the C-line was built, it had 80,000-90,000 ridership per day right from the get go and now starting to hit 122,000? And I blame (for a significant role) LRSP to the C-Line being underbuilt. It's SO painfully obvious. The YVR is in Richmond's jurisdiction and Richmond itself has numerous malls along No.3 Rd (there's A LOT of ridership on the C-Line esp on the weekends as well, which isn't really the case on M/E-Lines). The failure of LRSP to see this is just outright ridiculous.

LRSP itself is epic fail and is a perfect example of politically-motivated regional planning.
I think the real "epic fail" will be when the "Big One" hits and half of Richmond liquifies, the dykes break and everyone complains, blames government and appeals for aid.
     
     
  #5324  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2010, 6:10 PM
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Originally Posted by The_Henry_Man View Post
I wouldn't bet a dime on the LRSP. It literally screwed up on the predictions of Richmond's growth. Remember that Richmond wasn't EVEN on LRSP? But when the C-line was built, it had 80,000-90,000 ridership per day right from the get go and now starting to hit 122,000? And I blame (for a significant role) LRSP to the C-Line being underbuilt. It's SO painfully obvious. The YVR is in Richmond's jurisdiction and Richmond itself has numerous malls along No.3 Rd (there's A LOT of ridership on the C-Line esp on the weekends as well, which isn't really the case on M/E-Lines).
...
To be fair, a big chunk of C-Line ridership comes from "unexpected" huge uses by people travelling within Vancouver zone. For instance, everytime I wait in Langara station platform, almost twice as much people waiting for northbound trains than southbound.
And Zewi figures that only at most 70000 trips could be from Richmond and suburban bus transfers

For evergreen line, I would not look too much into the current bus riderships in Tri-cities. If the extended skytrain proves to be great time-saver (compared with driving+parking) for residents there, I believe the ridership will again be unexpectedly high.
     
     
  #5325  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2010, 6:16 PM
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Originally Posted by officedweller View Post
I think the real "epic fail" will be when the "Big One" hits and half of Richmond liquifies, the dykes break and everyone complains, blames government and appeals for aid.
Let's not start that discussion again, shall we... IMO such "armchair geophysics" statements are worse than complete ignorance.

People are allowed to build and live in Richmond, and buy insurance there, because the people who make those policies understand the actual risk level.

Any earthquake that is strong enough to liquefy Richmond soil will devastate the entire Metro region, and the survival rate of people and structures will be similar everywhere.

But you can rest assured that the Canada Line's pillars are resting on the same bedrock as those of the Millennium Line.
     
     
  #5326  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2010, 6:44 PM
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The Canada Line columns have spread footings with multiple pilings in an array that is intended to survive the Big One.

Here's an old post:

Quote:
From the Richmond News:

Quake won't topple Canada Line

By Nelson Bennett

Imagine you are riding the Canada Line rapid transit system when the earthquake hits.

It's a bad one - the same magnitude as the one that collapsed causeways and toppled buildings in Kobe, Japan in 1995.

You are on the Richmond segment, which is elevated five metres off the ground - ground that is prone to liquefaction during earthquakes.

You feel the train shake and sway, and you wonder if it will come off the tracks and plunge onto the cars below you on No. 3 Road.

The drivers of the cars below you wonder the same thing.

Roger Woodhead, engineer in charge of ensuring the Canada Line's design, says the swaying back and forth should be the worst thing that would happen during an earthquake.

"If a car did derail, it wouldn't go very far," said Woodhead.

The rail system is designed with concrete curbs to prevent cars from bouncing off the track, in the event they derail.

That's just one of the engineering methods used to mitigate the impact of a major tumbler, like the Kobe quake, which killed more than 5,000 people.

The earthquake damaged more than half of the city's bridges, collapsed elevated tracks for the famed Shinkansen fast train, and knocked over a huge span of the Hanshin Expressway - an elevated causeway built on concrete columns.

"I think the Kobe earthquake was a wakeup call," Woodhead said.

When they were given the task of designing the Canada Line, mitigating earthquake damage on the Richmond portion was one of the top things on the minds of engineers.

"It was one of the first things we looked at - what are we going to do as far as pilings in Richmond," Woodhead said. "There were 10 or 12 technical issues we had to deal with, and that was one of them."

Another challenge is boring a two-kilometre long tunnel underneath False Creek.

Richmond is an island built up over the millennia by silt deposited by the Fraser River. It has a subsurface three to 10 metres thick made up of water-saturated granular soils, says John Claque, a geologist with the Department of Earth Science at Simon Fraser University. On top of that is a layer of clay-like soil.

It's the subsurface of granular soil that liquefies during an earthquake.

"It's not like everything is going to slump into the sea," Claque said. "Not everything beneath Richmond is going to liquefy."

Liquefaction happens rapidly, but stops as soon as the ground stops shaking.

"It doesn't take very long - a minute or so," Claque said.

During liquefaction, the subsurface soils begin to flow, which can cause structural damage.

Much of the damage caused in Kobe was due to liquefaction.

Fortunately, the Kobe quake taught engineers some valuable lessons on mitigating the impact of earthquakes.

Roughly half of the Canada Line's 19 kilometres of track will be below ground, including a two-kilometre stretch running 35 metres deep beneath False Creek.

While the prospect of being trapped 35 metres down in a train during an earthquake might make the bravest person claustrophobic, it is probably one of the safer places to be, Canada Line officials say.

"Tunnels are very stable in an earthquake," Woodhead said. "You tend not to get very high forces underground."

Then again, the architects of the Shinkansen train in Japan were shocked to find parts of the train's tunnel collapsed.

One of the biggest challenges for Canada Line engineers was designing the North Arm bridge that will bring trains across the Fraser River from Vancouver to Richmond. The Middle Arm is a shorter span, so designing the bridge taking trains to the airport was not as challenging.

Below the silty soil that makes up Richmond is a sloping mountain of glacial till, which is relatively solid - solid enough to anchor the bridge with steel and concrete pilings.

On the Richmond side, engineers must go 45 metres down to anchor the pilings in till.


Building a bridge in sandy soil wasn't the only challenge. Because ships use the North Arm, engineers had to design the North Arm Bridge with only two piers, set 180 metres apart. Typically, they would have used more piers set closer together to give the bridge added strength.

"The challenge is to be able to build a bridge there and not interfere with the shipping channel," said InTransit public affairs vice-president Steve Crombie.

Having only two piers means they each must bear a heavier load. Moreover, because of the bridge's proximity to the airport, engineers were restricted in how high they could go with cable stay towers. These towers, like the ones on the Alex Fraser bridge, rise high above the bridge and strengthen it by applying upward pressure with steel cables.

They added strength to the bridge by running braided steel cables along its length.

"It holds it tight, basically, and takes the load," Woodhead said.

Half of the Canada Line will be elevated, coming out of the ground around 64th Avenue in Vancouver, and continuing above-ground for the entire Richmond segment, and for a portion of the airport segment.

There will be 250 concrete guideway columns, each one of which will have four to eight concrete and steel pilings. The pilings will be driven 12 metres down into what Woodhead describes as "fairly compact sand."

The tendency during an earthquake would be for the elevated causeway to bend in one direction, as the ground slips underneath. That slipping would pull pilings on one side upwards, and push the ones on the other side deeper into the ground.
To prevent that, Canada Line engineers came up with pilings that essentially have roots, like a tree. These "expanded base pilings" have a concrete bulb at the end.

This bulb - acting like a deeply buried root - would prevent the pilings on one side from being pulled up, and the ones on the other side from being pushed deeper.

The worst thing that could happen is that one of the concrete guideways could actually snap.

"I guess the column could break," Woodhead said, "but they're very heavily reinforced (with steel)."

As for the pilings themselves, there are doubly reinforced steel casings inside. They are also narrower than usual. Smaller diameters make it easier for liquefying soil to flow around the pilings, which decreases pressure on them.

This was discovered when computer modeling was done to test the design.

"Instead of this material pushing the piles over, it flows around them," Woodhead said.

Asked what the chances are that a train will be knocked off the elevated guideway during an earthquake, Woodhead said: "zero."

published on 12/15/2006
     
     
  #5327  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2010, 6:55 PM
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Well... that's umm, good to know.
     
     
  #5328  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2010, 9:47 PM
The_Henry_Man The_Henry_Man is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mezzanine View Post
Remember that the consensus is to avoid intense poputlation growth on a flood plain. The C-line is some way provides some limit to that. it does allow some densification, putting less pressure on Richmond's ALR, but metro wants to focus growth on the burrad peninsula and surrey/langley, not necessarily in richmond, ladner, etc.
But you have to be realistic at the same time. There's still substantial population growth in Richmond for the past decade and today, whether you like it or not. To totally neglect this fact is pure ignorance and almost borders stupidity.

But all-in-all, I would say the C-Line is the most successful transit project ever since the original Expo Line's construction and opening, despite some of the flaws that we talked about to death.
     
     
  #5329  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2010, 9:55 PM
The_Henry_Man The_Henry_Man is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CLC View Post
To be fair, a big chunk of C-Line ridership comes from "unexpected" huge uses by people travelling within Vancouver zone. For instance, everytime I wait in Langara station platform, almost twice as much people waiting for northbound trains than southbound.
And Zewi figures that only at most 70000 trips could be from Richmond and suburban bus transfers

For evergreen line, I would not look too much into the current bus riderships in Tri-cities. If the extended skytrain proves to be great time-saver (compared with driving+parking) for residents there, I believe the ridership will again be unexpectedly high.
Obviously Zwei probably has never been to Richmond before. These pictures are taken by me during a typical afternoon rush hour, at around 1730h. I know it's not scientific and that train's frequency is less than the ones on E/M-Lines, but the passenger load is definitely better than the current M-Line right now. I still don't really comprehend at people's gross underestimation of ridership from local buses and Skytrain in Richmond. Richmond-Brighouse is without doubt one of 10 most heavily used stations on the entire Skytrain system.





     
     
  #5330  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2010, 9:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Henry_Man View Post
Obviously Zwei probably has never been to Richmond before.
He probably hasn't been outside in years..
     
     
  #5331  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2010, 9:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zassk View Post
Let's not start that discussion again, shall we... IMO such "armchair geophysics" statements are worse than complete ignorance.

People are allowed to build and live in Richmond, and buy insurance there, because the people who make those policies understand the actual risk level.

Any earthquake that is strong enough to liquefy Richmond soil will devastate the entire Metro region, and the survival rate of people and structures will be similar everywhere.

But you can rest assured that the Canada Line's pillars are resting on the same bedrock as those of the Millennium Line.
You totally reflect my sentiments. Amen!!!
     
     
  #5332  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2010, 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by GeeCee View Post
He probably hasn't been outside in years..
He's getting slammed pretty good on his own blog, again. Frankly I'm surprised that some of these comments were allowed. I can only imagine what he continues to disallow:

http://railforthevalley.wordpress.com/20...heir-cars-at-home-yet-surprise-surprise/

I particularly enjoy how all numbers are false unless he pulls them out of his —. $10M for a Rotem C-car on the Canada Line.
     
     
  #5333  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2010, 10:16 PM
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From the Buzzer:

Quote:
Temporary T signage now up at downtown Canada Line stations


T wayfinding signage up at the Waterfront Canada Line entrance on Granville Street.

If you’re interested, more T wayfinding signage has gone up on Canada Line stations in downtown Vancouver. Woo!

Just note that these are temporary signs for the Games period, since permanent T signage for the Canada Line still has to be worked out with ProTrans BC, the private operator of the Line.
     
     
  #5334  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2010, 10:16 PM
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That is friggin awesome. ALL HAIL THE T!
     
     
  #5335  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2010, 10:19 PM
The_Henry_Man The_Henry_Man is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zassk View Post
Vancouver getting the "lion's share of rapid transit" is a little misleading. Only a third of Expo Line, a quarter of Millennium Line, and about half of Canada Line lie within the City of Vancouver. If any jurisdiction has received generous rapid transit relative to its population and jobs, it is Burnaby, and one could also point a finger at New West, although New West's driving infrastructure is so awful that one could easily justify an investment in transit there. My point is, we cannot say that the City of Vancouver has received an unfair amount of km-of-rapid-transit-per-capita. It is just one out of many privileged jurisdictions in the Metro area.
The COV has to be the most hypocritical bunch of all municipal governments in the Lower Mainland. They made and call the most shots on the need to densify and advocate for TOD, but they made the least progress on densification and redevelopment of properties close to Skytrain stations. This still really baffles me to this day. . I think this in itself is partly contributing to suburban sprawl.

The only areas in COV that I consider to be remotely a properly densified area with condos outside of the downtown core are Joyce-Collingwood and Kerrisdale. The areas I would hope to see become a second Brentwood Town Centre would be Commercial-Broadway (they should really concentrate more public and rental housing in this area) and Oakridge areas.
     
     
  #5336  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2010, 10:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WarrenC12 View Post
He's getting slammed pretty good on his own blog, again. Frankly I'm surprised that some of these comments were allowed. I can only imagine what he continues to disallow:

http://railforthevalley.wordpress.com/20...heir-cars-at-home-yet-surprise-surprise/

I particularly enjoy how all numbers are false unless he pulls them out of his —. $10M for a Rotem C-car on the Canada Line.
$10-million for a Rotem C-car??? At that price, we would have been able to paint the trains properly, use the more expensive exterior sliding doors instead of pocket doors, nicer seat covers, a LIVE train map, LCD screens, more bars and handles, a faster and more powerful train motor, a better heater and air con....and you could probably add a lot more extras.

The Canada Line cars cost us $5-million each.
     
     
  #5337  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2010, 10:56 PM
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And golden handle bars!

I still don't understand why people, particularly him, care so much.

It's kind of sad if you have to make up huge lies about a transit system. I guess, maybe, there are some major transit geeks out there
     
     
  #5338  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2010, 10:59 PM
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Originally Posted by mr.x View Post
The Canada Line cars cost us $5-million each.
And those are the ones with motors.
     
     
  #5339  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2010, 12:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Zassk View Post
^ Does anyone know what is the long-term plan for WCE? Does Translink hope to renegotiate for more trains per day? Longer trains? Or just the status quo?
Renegotiations are due in 2014... they may decide to maintain status quo or add one trip. I'm hoping they start doing two way Trainbus trips to start then start adding more trains and especially a reverse peak-hour train trip or two in the AM and PM.

Code:
Fall 2010 WCE Schedule (when new cars come in service)
Mission   Coquitlam Vancouver      Coquitlam Mission
                    Arrive  Depart
5:27      6:10      6:40    -      -         -       5-CAR WCE
5:57      6:40      7:10    -      -         -       8-CAR WCE
6:27      7:10      7:40    -      -         -       10-CAR WCE
6:57      7:40      8:10    -      -         -       10-CAR WCE
7:27      8:10      8:40    -      -         -       8-CAR WCE
9:27      10:34     11:22   -      -         -       TRAINBUS
10:27     11:34     12:22   -      -         -       TRAINBUS
-          -        -       12:55  13:37     14:39   TRAINBUS
-          -        -       13:25  14:07     15:09   TRAINBUS
-          -        -       15:50  16:17     17:03   8-CAR WCE
-          -        -       16:20  16:47     17:33   8-CAR WCE
-          -        -       16:50  17:17     18:03   10-CAR WCE
-          -        -       17:30  17:57     18:43   10-CAR WCE
-          -        -       18:20  18:47     19:33   5-CAR WCE
-          -        -       19:00  19:42     20:42   TRAINBUS
-          -        -       19:30  20:12     21:12   TRAINBUS
-          -        -       20:00  20:42     21:42   TRAINBUS
Code:
Fall 2014 WCE Schedule
Mission   Coquitlam Vancouver      Coquitlam Mission
                    Arrive  Depart
-          -        -       -      6:19      7:19(A) TRAINBUS
-          -        -       -      7:19      8:19(A) TRAINBUS
5:27      6:10      6:40    -      -         -       5-CAR WCE
5:57      6:40      7:10    -      -         -       7-CAR WCE
6:17      7:00      7:30    -      -         -       7-CAR WCE
6:37      7:10      7:50    -      -         -       7-CAR WCE
6:57      7:40      8:10    -      -         -       7-CAR WCE
7:27      8:10      8:40    -      -         -       7-CAR WCE
8:27(M)   9:34      -       -      -         -       TRAINBUS
9:27(M)   10:34     -       -      -         -       TRAINBUS
10:27     11:34     -       -      -         -       TRAINBUS
11:27     12:34     -       -      13:07     14:09   TRAINBUS
-          -        -       -      14:07     15:09(A)TRAINBUS
13:27     14:34     -       -      15:07     16:09(A)TRAINBUS
-         -         -       15:50  16:17     17:03   7-CAR WCE
-         -         -       16:15  16:42     17:28   7-CAR WCE
-         -         -       16:40  17:07     17:53   7-CAR WCE
-         -         -       17:05  17:32     18:18   7-CAR WCE
-         -         -       17:30  17:57     18:43   7-CAR WCE
-         -         -       18:20  18:47     19:33   5-CAR WCE
16:57(M)  18:04     -       -      -         -       TRAINBUS
17:57(M)  19:04     -       -      19:42     20:42   TRAINBUS
-         -         -       -      20:42     21:42   TRAINBUS
-         -         -       -      22:42     23:42   TRAINBUS (C)
-         -         -       -      24:42     25:42   TRAINBUS (F)

(A) To Abbotsford Greyhound Depot via Downtown Abbotsford
    Exchange (Park & Ride), arrives 20 minutes later.
(M) From Abbotsford Greyhound Depot via Downtown Abbotsford
    Exchange, departs 25 minutes prior.
(C) Friday, Saturday, and Canucks games only.
(F) Friday and Saturday only.
*shrugs*
     
     
  #5340  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2010, 1:25 AM
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I will gladly pay a vehicle levy to pay for this endorsement:



Take transit, sucka!
     
     
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