Ottawa Rapid Transit Network developments

[c_speed3108]

as good as it gets:

Ottawa's Union Station could see trains again
Last Updated: Thursday, January 14, 2010 | 9:32 AM ET
CBC News


The historic stone building was Ottawa's main railway station from 1912 to the mid-1960s. The historic stone building was Ottawa's main railway station from 1912 to the mid-1960s. (CBC)

A historical former Ottawa train station may welcome rail passengers again in coming years.

Ottawa Mayor Larry O'Brien told CBC News Wednesday that the city is looking to buy the downtown Union Train Station, which was Ottawa's main railway station from 1912 to the mid-1960s. The stately stone building would be used as one of the downtown stations for the city's proposed light rail transit line.

"It would be a very exciting addition," said O'Brien.

He added that the landmark on Wellington Street, across from the Chateau Laurier hotel, is "perfectly located." It is on the Rideau Canal, close to the Ottawa Convention Centre that is currently under construction, the Parliament Buildings and the Byward Market.

The building is owned by Public Works and Government Services Canada, which uses it as a government conference centre.

O'Brien said the city is currently in "preliminary stages" of discussion about the station. One idea has the city paying a dollar for the site, with the province kicking in $60 million to $70 million to pay for removal of asbestos and other improvements to the building.

[the capital urbanite]

I fail to see what the city would gain from this acquisition. What is the business case for it?

[MalcolmTucker]

^ More convention space, some office space, and another exit for the LRT platform?

Still, seems a bit odd and I don't think the government would be very warm to the proposal.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by the capital urbanite

I fail to see what the city would gain from this acquisition. What is the business case for it?

I totally agree. What would the building be used for? Surely not just as an LRT station access. With the NCC owning all the former railway lands leading to the station, how in the world would commuter or intercity trains get to it? I would rather have this building in the hands of the feds than the city, who would likely neglect it even more so.

This sounds like another one of O'Brien's hair-brain ideas, just like Expo 2017 and so many others. He just likes telling the press any idea that comes to mind at the moment.

[hunter]

Beyond the business case, or its viability as a train station, I doubt the NCC will sell it.

[adam-machiavelli]

This is a good first step. However, with just LRT, the building would be seriously under-used.

To be a proper transportation hub, these are just SOME of the other transit-related attributes that must be based in or near (within 100 metres) this building:

VIA Rail
High-Speed Intercity Rail
Regional Rail
Street-level light rail
OC Transpo buses
STO buses
Intercity buses
Regional buses
Airport Express Bus/Train
Rideau Canal Water Taxis
Private Vehicle Pick-up/Drop-off
Bicycle storage and accessibility
Full access for people with mobility difficulties
Outdoor and indoor pedestrian links to and from the Rideau Centre, DND HQ, Chateau Laurier, Westin, ByWard Market, and the new Ottawa Convention Centre.

If these connections are also added, this old train station will become a true transit hub!

[RTWAP]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The real basis of this project, cost savings not service improvement. Somehow, I find this amount very hard to believe. It certainly appears that earlier promises of improved bus service connecting to LRT is a figment of everybody's imagination.

I think that is a completely accurate statement ... in the short term. The problem is we don't have anywhere to go from here. We're at a dead-end with BRT and we need to turn around, backtrack and then forge a new direction. The first phase of that isn't about improving service right now, it's about providing the framework for service improvements in the future.

[Richard Eade]

Originally Posted by adam-machiavelli

This is a good first step. However, with just LRT, the building would be seriously under-used.

To be a proper transportation hub, these are just SOME of the other transit-related attributes that must be based in or near (within 100 metres) this building:

VIA Rail
High-Speed Intercity Rail
Regional Rail
Street-level light rail
OC Transpo buses
STO buses
Intercity buses
Regional buses
Airport Express Bus/Train
Rideau Canal Water Taxis
Private Vehicle Pick-up/Drop-off
Bicycle storage and accessibility
Full access for people with mobility difficulties
Outdoor and indoor pedestrian links to and from the Rideau Centre, DND HQ, Chateau Laurier, Westin, ByWard Market, and the new Ottawa Convention Centre.

If these connections are also added, this old train station will become a true transit hub!

VIA Rail
Not going to happen. The existing VIA Station will remain. There are no remaining surface routes to the old Station and it is prohibitive to tunnel everything.
High-Speed Intercity Rail
Not going to happen. This might be better at the airport.
Regional Rail
Not going to happen unless the electrified LRT becomes regional.
Street-level light rail
Possible if a Rideau/Elgin Streetcar is created.
OC Transpo buses
Doubtful unless all (most, any way) OC Transpo buses are routed along Rideau which would be a nightmare for Rideau.
STO buses
Maybe, depending on the re-organization that happens with RapiBus.
Intercity buses
Probably not since there really isn't a convenient link to/from the 417. Not enough storage area for buses.
Regional buses
Maybe a stop along the way for CR or similar buses, but there is very little surface space for it.
Airport Express Bus/Train
This will be coming along the O-Train line so should have connection through subway.
Rideau Canal Water Taxis
I think these might be too inefficient to actually run.
Private Vehicle Pick-up/Drop-off
There is a turn-around off Colonol By Drive, but unless you are taking over the sidewalk in front of the building, I think this is too inconvenient.
Bicycle storage and accessibility
This is already possible under the Plaza Bridge.
Full access for people with mobility difficulties
Should already be there since it is a Government Conference Centre.
Outdoor and indoor pedestrian links to and from the Rideau Centre, DND HQ, Chateau Laurier, Westin, ByWard Market, and the new Ottawa Convention Centre.
Probably possible, at a cost.

[Kitchissippi]

That building would make a great civic and cultural hub. The city lacks visibility in the core with City Hall tucked away in a corner. Just opening the grand halls to the public would create a awesome meeting place and "living room" for the city. Throw in some public wifi hotspot, too

Some of the stuff they could put there:

A real visitors centre, where you can book hotels, buy tickets to any events, etc. The NCC's visitor centre does not do these things, and mostly focuses on the federal attractions.

Civic exhibition and presentation space/public information centre. People don't go to city hall for public sessions or the city art gallery because it is not very easy to get to.

Move the one-stop service centre there where you can pay your city bills, renew your drivers license or health card, get bus passes, etc.

A food court. Sounds banal, but there really isn't a great one in Ottawa. It would be nice to have one with access and views to the canal.

[RTWAP]

Originally Posted by hunter

Beyond the business case, or its viability as a train station, I doubt the NCC will sell it.

Luckily, the NCC doesn't own it. PWGSC does.

Originally Posted by adam-machiavelli

This is a good first step. However, with just LRT, the building would be seriously under-used.

To be a proper transportation hub, these are just SOME of the other transit-related attributes that must be based in or near (within 100 metres) this building:

VIA Rail
High-Speed Intercity Rail
Regional Rail
Street-level light rail
OC Transpo buses
STO buses
Intercity buses
Regional buses
Airport Express Bus/Train
Rideau Canal Water Taxis
Private Vehicle Pick-up/Drop-off
Bicycle storage and accessibility
Full access for people with mobility difficulties
Outdoor and indoor pedestrian links to and from the Rideau Centre, DND HQ, Chateau Laurier, Westin, ByWard Market, and the new Ottawa Convention Centre.

If these connections are also added, this old train station will become a true transit hub!

I can't see Via or High Speed Rail going there, unless we just go ahead an buy a friggin' tunneling machine and run it non-stop for a decade or two (not a bad plan IMHO).

I'd love to see street-level light rail converge to there. Something like this.



The green line along Carling could conceivable go as far as Lincoln Fields.

The blue line would serve Bank from Billings Bridge north, and then Elgin downtown. It also provides a rail link in close proximity to the Museum of Nature.

The red line would serve Rideau/Montreal Road (a target for intensification), as well as the Montfort and the possible community that Canlands wants to develop at the old Rockliffe base. I'm not sure where it would terminate, either continuing to a future LRT station at 174/Montreal Road, or turning south to the Blair Road station.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by RTWAP

I think that is a completely accurate statement ... in the short term. The problem is we don't have anywhere to go from here. We're at a dead-end with BRT and we need to turn around, backtrack and then forge a new direction. The first phase of that isn't about improving service right now, it's about providing the framework for service improvements in the future.

I think this emphasis on cost savings is worrisome, even more so than the lack of immediate service improvements offered by Phase 1. We have seen the bus route rationalization plan already and this goes far beyond redirecting bus routes to LRT stations. This in itself should save money. I really don't understand why service cuts are being wrapped around this project. Why should we spend billions if the end result is a worse transit system?

The point of building new rapid transit is to make the system better. It should not be specifically to have a return on investment to the taxpayer.

I don't understand why the feds and the province would fund a plan that in the end just infuses that money whether directly or indirectly into general civic tax coffers. This is ridiculous and objectionable.

I also have a hard time buying that any sort of plan should involve actual backtracking. You don't see this with the Toronto plan or the Vancouver plan or the Calgary plan or anywhere else. Toronto is hitting the wall with its Go Transit system, but they are not backtracking. They are also going to change technology but the end result will be faster more frequent service and even in the transition, they will be adding more trains. An ongoing rationale improvement in service, no backtracking. Calgary will soon reach capacity downtown but its tunnel plan will also deliver real new and faster service. We have challenges downtown, but I can't understand why our plan cannot deliver steady real improvements to Ottawa transit riders. If it isn't , we are not being creative enough in the manner in which it is being implemented or the plan simply fails to improve service at all. So, we end laying track on most of the Transitway over a period of 20 years. This is not a service improvement, and this an awfully long time to be backtracking. This all suggests that the Transitways were short-sighted. But even if it was, why then are we continuing to follow the same process again in building more Transitways designed to be converted to LRT in the future. Sounds like the same backtracking in our children's or grandchildren's lifetime.

Does it really provide a framework for service improvements in the future? How? I cannot for the life of me see how the Carling or Montreal Road streetcar or Gatineau LRT will ever be able to use that tunnel without significantly compromising service frequencies. It won't be able to handle anything more than the currently planned east-west and north-south routes and with the Taj Mahal terminal stations, how likely are we ever going to see extensions further into the suburbs? Not in my lifetime, that is for sure. Just look at what Calgary is doing, building a new LRT line to the western fringe of the city, all in one go. Yet still no downtown tunnel and they use only one street downtown for its trains. Yes, we need to plan for a tunnel and be able to move forward with it, but a plan that doesn't deliver real service improvements for 20 or 30 or 40 years is a bad plan.

[RTWAP]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

That building would make a great civic and cultural hub. The city lacks visibility in the core with City Hall tucked away in a corner. Just opening the grand halls to the public would create a awesome meeting place and "living room" for the city. Throw in some public wifi hotspot, too

Some of the stuff they could put there:

A real visitors centre, where you can book hotels, buy tickets to any events, etc. The NCC's visitor centre does not do these things, and mostly focuses on the federal attractions.

Civic exhibition and presentation space/public information centre. People don't go to city hall for public sessions or the city art gallery because it is not very easy to get to.

Move the one-stop service centre there where you can pay your city bills, renew your drivers license or health card, get bus passes, etc.

A food court. Sounds banal, but there really isn't a great one in Ottawa. It would be nice to have one with access and views to the canal.

Great ideas. I especially like that last one. "Food on the go from around the world" would be a great theme. Have a proper English fish&chips place (wrapped in newspaper), a baguetterie. Have each place be small, but make each one look like it's been transplanted from Tokyo or Paris or wherever. If anyone has done the passport tour at the Children's Museum in Gatineau then they'll have a sense of what I'm talking about.

[RTWAP]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I think this emphasis on cost savings is worrisome, even more so than the lack of immediate service improvements offered by Phase 1. We have seen the bus route rationalization plan already and this goes far beyond redirecting bus routes to LRT stations. This in itself should save money. I really don't understand why service cuts are being wrapped around this project. Why should we spend billions if the end result is a worse transit system?

I don't think the emphasis on cost-savings. I think the intention is to grow the transit system quite a bit, but to do that it needs to be affordable. Growing our current capacity by 50%, with the framework we have right now, is impossible.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The point of building new rapid transit is to make the system better. It should not be specifically to have a return on investment to the taxpayer.

Things get worse before they get better. Widening a road results in construction delays. This is like that, but over a longer time frame.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I don't understand why the feds and the province would fund a plan that in the end just infuses that money whether directly or indirectly into general civic tax coffers. This is ridiculous and objectionable.

Because with their assistance we have built a transit system that is very expensive to operate and very hard to upgrade?

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I also have a hard time buying that any sort of plan should involve actual backtracking. You don't see this with the Toronto plan or the Vancouver plan or the Calgary plan or anywhere else. Toronto is hitting the wall with its Go Transit system, but they are not backtracking. They are also going to change technology but the end result will be faster more frequent service and even in the transition, they will be adding more trains. An ongoing rationale improvement in service, no backtracking. Calgary will soon reach capacity downtown but its tunnel plan will also deliver real new and faster service. We have challenges downtown, but I can't understand why our plan cannot deliver steady real improvements to Ottawa transit riders. If it isn't , we are not being creative enough in the manner in which it is being implemented or the plan simply fails to improve service at all. So, we end laying track on most of the Transitway over a period of 20 years. This is not a service improvement, and this an awfully long time to be backtracking. This all suggests that the Transitways were short-sighted. But even if it was, why then are we continuing to follow the same process again in building more Transitways designed to be converted to LRT in the future. Sounds like the same backtracking in our children's or grandchildren's lifetime.

Have any of those systems tried to use on-street buses as the core of their network? Express buses are a great thing for those that use them. But If we keep adding express buses for each new housing area then the entire system will get unworkable. We could just tell the new areas that they're out of luck, but that's not exactly fair is it? So we need to go to a system that is more sustainable (in both senses) and more equitable.

A fast and reliable network core connected to local buses is sustainable and equitable. But it will not always provide a service improvement compared to current conditions. But the point is, current conditions will continue to get worse. Would you prefer we keep adding buses until the gridlock is much worse, and then start the 5-7 year process of conversion?

With respect to future conversions, I'll just point out that the greatest expenses are the downtown tunnel (which won't need to be paid for again) and the maintenance yard. Once we have a viable core system, we can expand it incrementally as needed. That means every time the feds or province have cash to throw around (every election?) we'll have a project for them to fund. Maybe even two or three.

Looking ahead, the only expensive conversion should be connecting Tunney's to Lincoln Fields. Once that's done, the rest of the BRT corridors should be much easier to convert. The rationale for going LRT instead of Metro was to facilitate that conversion.

[Franky]

Originally Posted by RTWAP

That means every time the feds or province have cash to throw around (every election?) we'll have a project for them to fund. Maybe even two or three.

So LRT is a make work, waste money project. Makes sense. This is bureaucratic thinking and it needs to change. We have SERIOUS problems with sewers and I'm sure there are other pressing needs we should be getting money for. Building legacy tunnels (so deep it's not even funny) and buying pretty buildings just isn't what the city needs. I hope Watson is serious about revisiting the boondoggle, I certainly don't want to pay for it and a good chunk of the population doesn't either.

[rakerman]

"Ottawa's Union Station could see trains again"

- Great to hear, but not exactly a huge surprise given the alignment they were already showing for Rideau Station



(from Downtown Ottawa Transit Tunnel (DOTT) Planning and Environmental Assessment Study)

[flight_from_kamakura]

though i doubt that a) obrien is serious about this; b) obrien will be around all that much longer; and c) obrien's successors would go in for a scheme like this, the city could conceivably wrangle that sucker away from a reluctant public works with a pretty simple eminent domain move. if this crazy tunnel scheme really does go ahead, it might be worth badgering the feds into considering some sort of via extension too. that'd be money well spent, that's for sure.

[waterloowarrior]

^ The City can't expropriate federal land, otherwise we wouldn't have to worry about the Parkway issue or the Bayshore to Moodie Transitway

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by RTWAP

I can't see Via or High Speed Rail going there, unless we just go ahead an buy a friggin' tunneling machine and run it non-stop for a decade or two (not a bad plan IMHO).

Remember my proposal a while back which suggested converting the existing Transitway corridor to a commuter/VIA corridor? Although it would require keeping the LRT corridor separate from the existing Transitway as far as Hurdman...which is not the approved plan. Otherwise it would require the AVTC and Colonel By Drive in order to reach the existing rail corridor at surface level.

Non-stop for a decade or two? The distance from the existing rail corridor to the station is about 3 km.

[Richard Eade]

Originally Posted by RTWAP

...The green line along Carling could conceivable go as far as Lincoln Fields.

The blue line would serve Bank from Billings Bridge north, and then Elgin downtown. It also provides a rail link in close proximity to the Museum of Nature.

The red line would serve Rideau/Montreal Road (a target for intensification), as well as the Montfort and the possible community that Canlands wants to develop at the old Rockliffe base. I'm not sure where it would terminate, either continuing to a future LRT station at 174/Montreal Road, or turning south to the Blair Road station.

I would prefer to see the surface lines travel more on pedestrian oriented roads, like Corso Italia and Somerset. Also, I couldn't see any big need to remove car capacity from Bronson since it seems to be one of the main roads heading downtown. Since Gladstone isn't really much in that area, I just moved the line to McLeod to access the Museum directly.



I think I swapped the blue and green, but you will get the point.

And, just for fun, I put the terminus in the new park beside the station. It doesn't matter if we own the building or not; this should work.

[lrt's friend]

I don't think the emphasis on cost-savings. I think the intention is to grow the transit system quite a bit, but to do that it needs to be affordable. Growing our current capacity by 50%, with the framework we have right now, is impossible.

First of all, I am not advocating the status quo. Second, I am not the one who said that we will be saving $100M per year in operating costs starting when the tunnel opens. When you see statements like this and proposed bus route rationalizations, how can we not come to the conclusion, that we will end up with a smaller transit system? It is not unreasonable to predict if this happens, there will also be fewer riders. I am not coming up with this from thin air. The saving figure has been published and the service rationalization has been discussed here.

Things get worse before they get better. Widening a road results in construction delays. This is like that, but over a longer time frame.

A much longer time frame. I think it is not unreasonable to expect some benefits sooner.

Because with their assistance we have built a transit system that is very expensive to operate and very hard to upgrade?

I think the Transitways have been a great success and they have improved the efficiency of the transit system. The Transitways are clearly upgradeable as almost all the rapid transit extensions in the future will be bus Transitways. It is even possible to upgrade the downtown section for far less than $2.1B by building a bus tunnel. Your argument does not really hold water. We seem to want a gold plated solution where the benefits are way off in the far distant future. I want to make it perfectly clear, that I am not necessarily advocating a bus tunnel, but to show that there are cheaper solutions where more of our money can be spent in actually delivering better service, attract more riders and generate more fares.

Have any of those systems tried to use on-street buses as the core of their network? Express buses are a great thing for those that use them. But If we keep adding express buses for each new housing area then the entire system will get unworkable. We could just tell the new areas that they're out of luck, but that's not exactly fair is it? So we need to go to a system that is more sustainable (in both senses) and more equitable.

A fast and reliable network core connected to local buses is sustainable and equitable. But it will not always provide a service improvement compared to current conditions. But the point is, current conditions will continue to get worse. Would you prefer we keep adding buses until the gridlock is much worse, and then start the 5-7 year process of conversion?

Well, we have also discarded surface LRT used in all of those cities. Even downtown Calgary still has a lot of buses from parts of the city not served by LRT at present. Ottawa is proposing to eliminate almost all those buses except those routes serving centretown neighbourhoods. Only our transit planners would come up with a plan requiring people from the west and south to transfer to a LRT route serving only the east end.

With respect to future conversions, I'll just point out that the greatest expenses are the downtown tunnel (which won't need to be paid for again) and the maintenance yard. Once we have a viable core system, we can expand it incrementally as needed. That means every time the feds or province have cash to throw around (every election?) we'll have a project for them to fund. Maybe even two or three.

Looking ahead, the only expensive conversion should be connecting Tunney's to Lincoln Fields. Once that's done, the rest of the BRT corridors should be much easier to convert. The rationale for going LRT instead of Metro was to facilitate that conversion.

Do you really believe what you say? The western route has proven to be very difficult. The path forward is going to be full of NIMBYs, which will jack up the costs at every turn. We have deliberately imposed ridiculous restrictions on extending LRT to suburbs and plan on overbuilding terminal stations that in themselves will discourage extension. By comparison, extending bus Transitways will be relatively easy. Even corridors where LRT would be easy to build, we have decided to build busways instead. You say once the core system is built, we can extend it. I don't see it happening as the money will be spent on Transitway extensions instead. You bring up the Maintenance Yard? Will we not need other Maintenance yards as we expand the system? I think so.