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  #121  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2009, 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by MonctonGoldenFlames View Post
the hsr is not even an option for inner city transport. although, if the nose creek is the chosen alignment for lrt, it would make a beautiful connection/transfer point at the 'airport' hsr/lrt station area. i really see this a huge benefit to going nose creek.
That would NEVER be allowed to happen, the paranoid schizophrenics at the Edmonton Regional Airports Authority wouldn't stand for it.

These guys piss themselves at the possibility of people flying out of the Muni, a high speed rail link to YYC would be out of the question.
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  #122  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2009, 12:18 AM
outoftheice outoftheice is offline
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Originally Posted by MonctonGoldenFlames View Post
sure, if this scenario plays out, the nose creek will have plenty of rail lines, but realistically, only one of the 3 will actually offer the type of frequency that people can rely on for daily needs...the lrt.

the commuter rail wouldn't even run on an hourly basis. the 'go train' from barrie to union station for example only runs hourly during the day, so i see no way an airdrie to calgary route would require nearly that frequency. hardly anything you would call efficient inner city transit.

the hsr is not even an option for inner city transport. although, if the nose creek is the chosen alignment for lrt, it would make a beautiful connection/transfer point at the 'airport' hsr/lrt station area. i really see this a huge benefit to going nose creek.
I'm not too sure why people so easily dismiss commuter rail as a viable transportation option... the model used in the GTA is just one of many. I'll agree that if Calgary models the Go Train, than yes, commuter rail won't work as a transportation option in the Nose Creek Valley. However 12 car, bi-level trains are not the only way to go. I was in Manchester for work this summer. Their commuter rail consisted of 2 or 3 car train-sets (essentially the same size, if not slightly smaller than our current LRTs). The average frequency of service was every 30-45 minutes... with more frequent service during the rush hour periods. From my understanding, the only reason this model wasn't feasible in the GTA is that the majority of the track used by Go Transit is also shared with CN and VIA rail and as a result, traffic volumes limited the frequencies that could be offered.... same issue in Montreal. If the Calgary region constructed a seperate right-of-way for it's commuter rail network (made possible by moving the LRT out of Nose Creek) there is no reason why this 'UK Model' of commuter rail couldn't provide an effective transporation option to new developments along Nose Creek.

As far as a link to the airport, I think Calgary needs to think big on this one. Instead of some sort of airport to LRT link in Nose Creek, I would argue that the airport should serve as a terminus for a commuter rail line using the 'UK Model' of shorter train-sets running on their own right-of-way. The 30-45 minute service frequency is perfect for an airport. As in the UK, the trains could be properly equipped for airport service and offer luggage racks through-out the cars. In my scenario, trains would depart the airport station heading west. They would make their first stop at the proposed High Speed Rail station located approximately where Airport Trail meets the CPR tracks. At this station passengers could connect to the HSR train or commuter rail trains headed towards Airdrie and points north. The train would then continue towards a downtown central station. It is here that passengers could connect to the LRT network, and the proposed south and east commuter rail lines. The train would then continue west out of downtown and serve Cochrane. Eventually this service could be extended further west to service Canmore and Banff.

One of the biggest advantages to this proposal would be that same train service would be available between the airport and the downtown core. (Which I think is key for any airport link to succeed). It would also mean that same train service would eventually be available from the airport to Banff and I think that is also critical. But more importantly, this proposal would mean that the airport would be accessible to the majority of people in the entire Calgary region via one connection. To me, it is just as important for people living in Okotoks to be able to access the airport via rail than the people living in Sundance. I would be interested to know why an airport link wasn't included in the recent transportation plan unveiled by the Calgary Regional Partnership. To me it just makes sense!
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  #123  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2009, 1:33 AM
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There will be no dedicated right-of-way for commuter rail along Nose Creek.

Too costly and not necessary,

Passenger rail is also never going to return to Banff in the utilitarian sense, the Laggan subdivision which runs from Calgary to Field BC, through Banff is MUCH too congested and any conventional passenger service would be much to unreliable to be of any value.

I completely agree that improved transit links are required to the airport, but that is FAR too logical to get fair hearing from this city council, it is criminal given the proximity of the LRT to the airport already.
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  #124  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2009, 6:10 AM
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Originally Posted by outoftheice View Post
I'm not too sure why people so easily dismiss commuter rail as a viable transportation option... the model used in the GTA is just one of many. I'll agree that if Calgary models the Go Train, than yes, commuter rail won't work as a transportation option in the Nose Creek Valley.
i don't dismiss commuter rail as a viable option. what i do dismiss about it is it's ability to act as lrt does in the nose creek corridor.

commuter rail, under my proposal, would have a station in airdrie, a station at 96 avenue (airport essentially) and downtown calgary. the nclrt is run in the nose creek corridor, and would have a station at 96 ave. hsr, when it is eventually, if ever built, will have a station at 96 ave as proposed.

96 ave could be considered a 'union station of the north end' if all 3 rail lines are built this way. add to that, a people mover to the airport, and a brt route that could connect the nelrt, 96 ave station and the nwlrt. throw on top of that, the opportunity to terminate a centre st brt at the 96 ave station, and you have one collective terminus for inner and inter city passenger movements, uniting the entire north side of calgary.

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  #125  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2009, 6:24 AM
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A commuter rail service wouldn't run with enough frequency and not only will HSR never be built it certainly wouldn't have multiple stops along nose creek.

Centre Street as an urban corridor is actually an area that can be efficiently served by bus at all hours, a trolley used to run as far as the 78th Ave bus loop in Huntington Hills until 1975 it was abandoned because conventional buses were more practical and less disruptive to other traffic and the overhead catenary too vulnerable to damage.
I never suggested that Commuter service would run frequently - it would be purely commuter service for northern suburban communities and airdie - it would just be aligned on the Nose Creek Corridor logically - same with HSR. The centre street alignment should handle the high frequency service because that's were the populations is, pun intended, centred.

In terms of the technology, I'm firmly convinced that underground LRT is the way to go - very similar to what Toronto is doing on the Eglinton Avenue Corridor through the central portion of that line. They're doing about a 30km line for about $3billion, 10km of which is underground. Vancouver's Canada Line is also a good recent precedent (also one that has less corridor redevelopment potential compared to Centre Street).

As for streetcar, there's a very good reason why a lot of cities are returning to streetcars versus buses for key routes. The quality of ridership experience is simply not comparable. Just speaking from my own perspective as an example, I am far more likely to go out of my way to visit a community in Toronto that's served by a streetcar line rather than simply a bus - I actively avoid taking buses. In terms of reurbanization potential, LRT or streetcars are far more effective in inducing urbanization relative to bus lines, no matter how great the bus service is. There's a permanence and tangibility to the creation of a rail-based rapid transit line that development and population gravitates to. In my TOD research, I've yet to find many, if any really good TOD best practices that have occured with a bus or BRT infrastructure.

Having said that, I think a surface streetcar is a distant second best alternative for northcentral calgary compared to an underground route. There's no reason that Centre Street couldn't look an awful lot like many sections of Yonge street in Toronto, which has become a very strong spine based on the presence of the Yonge Subway line.
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  #126  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2009, 10:48 AM
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Street cars are returning to favor thanks to green washing any form of transportation that happens to be electric because electricity is generated by magic and not dirty hydrocarbons, coal or scary radioactive stuff.

And while you might like street cars they traditionally do not fall under the umbrella of "rail bias" which is more associated with speed than anything else.

Centre Street is an environment tailor made for bus service - which was determined almost forty years ago. It has a level of traffic that makes street cars disruptive and impractical, it has a population that supports high levels of non-peak transit utilization, it is an unbroken strip of residential and commercial activity along a relatively short distance and as one of few arteries into downtown will be see bus traffic no matter what.

TOD doesn't really come into this because TOD can be done virtually anywhere, there is no inherent need for intensification as part and parcel of TOD, that is just ideologically driven meddling and usually counter-productive as it only serves to raise public opposition and create gridlock.

The most successful TOD's in the world were established along rapid transit links serving far flung airports not parachuting thousands of people into established communities. A cluster of skyscrapers among farmers fields might look ridiculous but it works.

Quote:
There's no reason that Centre Street couldn't look an awful lot like many sections of Yonge street in Toronto,
There is no particular reason it should either, the cost would be absurd and it would be intensely unpopular.
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  #127  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2009, 2:52 PM
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^ The Portland Streetcar experience would belay your thought on rail bias, at least on the redevelopment and renewal front.
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  #128  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2009, 9:35 PM
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The most successful TOD's in the world were established along rapid transit links serving far flung airports not parachuting thousands of people into established communities. A cluster of skyscrapers among farmers fields might look ridiculous but it works.
And a great formula for creating donut cities. It may be good for the commute, but terrible for non-work related trips. And greenfield TOD is terrible for commercial development. Centre street is not just about residential development, it also could support significant commercial development.
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  #129  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2009, 10:17 PM
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"donut cities" are just the natural organization of cities, it isn't good, it isn't bad, it just is.

And people generally don't WANT to take transit for non-commuting trips, not enough freedom or flexibility even in perfect circumstances. That isn't a fault of the development, transit or individual behaviour.
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  #130  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2009, 10:28 PM
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^ The Portland Streetcar experience would belay your thought on rail bias, at least on the redevelopment and renewal front.
Rail Bias is "oh, I would never take the bus" - not a prejudice against trains.

I quite like the Portland system, particularly from an infrastructure perspective as the Skoda hardware is interoperable with the LRT track and catenary which potentially allows for some interesting things that couldn't be done with street car or LRT alone.

I just don't think Centre Street is the right place for a street car.
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  #131  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2009, 10:43 PM
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That would NEVER be allowed to happen, the paranoid schizophrenics at the Edmonton Regional Airports Authority wouldn't stand for it.

These guys piss themselves at the possibility of people flying out of the Muni, a high speed rail link to YYC would be out of the question.
Aww so sweet .

I'm sorry but we don't want to have our stupid height limit any longer that has halted so much of our urban development.

And I'm also sorry we don't want to have to spend money on something so underutilized in such a prime, central piece of land that could be a great urban community rather than a barely used airport. Nobody uses it anymore because it makes sense to use YEG.

My...how silly of us Edmontonians to think such crazy ways!
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  #132  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2009, 11:02 PM
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I would be happy to pickup the discussion of the insanity of the airport situation in Edmonton and Leduc with you again, just not here.

But do you not agree that the Edmonton Regional Airports Authority would take an extraordinarily negative view of Edmonton being connected to YYC by HSR.
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  #133  
Old Posted Dec 12, 2009, 3:08 AM
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RE: Centre Street as Yonge Street: I agree that this comparison may be a bit of an extreme and as a result may turn people off the idea of a Centre Street subway. That being said, the City has already targeted Centre Street for redevelopment by designating it as an urban corridor in Plan It: Calgary. So new levels of density are coming, the question is how much and when. While bus service along Centre Street may be adequate, I don't think bus service ever serves as a catalyst for development. Something is going to have to stimulate the development that the City wants to see along Centre Street... I think a Centre Street subway is the way to make that happen... with the additional benefit of bringing the LRT to the doorstep of thousands of Calgarians. Ultimately, I hope that the comparison that we will be able to make is to compare Centre Street with Bloor Street W in Toronto. Bloor Street W is served by the subway and is a continuous urban corridor primarily composed of mixed-use 2-4 story buildings with some taller ones mixed in for good measure. I think Centre Street could easily evolve into the Bloor Street of Calgary with very limited opposition.

RE: 96th Ave Transportation Hub: Very interesting proposal. The only point that I would make is that this idea still does not exclude a Centre Street subway. Between Mcknight Blvd and 64th Ave N, Centre Street comes quite close to the CPR right-of-way. Perhaps approaching 64th Ave, it would make sense to have the subway curve off of Centre Street and return to a surface right-of-way along the CPR tracks. It would then follow the route the City has proposed complete with the station at 96th Ave. I think this would be a good compromise as it would still allow for the idea of an airport transportation hub at 96th Ave and still have a subway along the key area of Centre Street for re-development (between downtown and 40th Ave N as mentioned in Plan It. It would also take some of the cost off the price of the project as it would remove some the cost of constructing a subway between 64th Ave and Beddington Trail. It could be win-win.
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  #134  
Old Posted Dec 12, 2009, 3:13 AM
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...The quality of ridership experience is simply not comparable. Just speaking from my own perspective as an example, I am far more likely to go out of my way to visit a community in Toronto that's served by a streetcar line rather than simply a bus - I actively avoid taking buses.
This brings up a point I've been wondering about. I've never been on a streetcar. Can you specify what makes the ridership experience better? Will I get home faster? Will the ride be more comfortable? Will the thing show up more reliably than a bus? Will I wait for less time for one? Anything I'm missing?
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  #135  
Old Posted Dec 12, 2009, 3:29 AM
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This brings up a point I've been wondering about. I've never been on a streetcar. Can you specify what makes the ridership experience better? Will I get home faster? Will the ride be more comfortable? Will the thing show up more reliably than a bus? Will I wait for less time for one? Anything I'm missing?
Well, from a mobility point, streetcars aren't any different from buses if they are run in mix traffic - they are just big buses, potentially very big (60m for a coupled unit). The ride is a bit better, smoother acceleration, no bouncing around. The big benefit comes due to people's prejudices against buses, a bus route with the exact same level of service will generate lower choice ridership, and induce less redevelopment. Streetcars will run faster than buses if you do all door boarding, offboard proof of payment fares, but you can implement those with a bus too.

Unfortunately Centre Street is only 4 lanes so we don't have the option of exclusive lanes without a major change in traffic.

I would say at this point since the NCLRT is a long ways off, and you don't want to make any moves that cause path dependency, once the West LRT is built and the full 301 isn't needed any more perhaps the Centre Street 301 should be replaced with a truer BRT service. Proof of payment, all door boarding, better buses, maybe even double articulation. If you build ridership that way, you might be able to justify a subway in 20 years, or it might prove to be all that is needed.
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  #136  
Old Posted Dec 12, 2009, 3:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Ferreth View Post
This brings up a point I've been wondering about. I've never been on a streetcar. Can you specify what makes the ridership experience better? Will I get home faster? Will the ride be more comfortable? Will the thing show up more reliably than a bus? Will I wait for less time for one? Anything I'm missing?
It is all about permanence. You can move beside a bus route and two years later the bus is rerouted. They can't move the rails. If you are a developer and you go try and get a loan for development and say "our housing development is adjacent to a bus route" the bank will give you a funny look. If you say "our development is adjacent to a rail station" you will get your loan.

Also, if you have ever traveled to cities with rail systems, like metros or trams and used them, did you ever wonder why you used the train and not the bus? In many cases, the bus might actually be faster, if it is a direct route. But you use the train because it is really easy to understand- it goes where the rails go. Ask most Calgarians where the LRT goes and they can tell you. Ask any Calgarian where the #1, or #3 (two of the highest frequency buses) and anyone, except those who use it, will have no idea where they go. It is all about legibility.
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  #137  
Old Posted Dec 12, 2009, 4:01 AM
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RE: Centre Street as Yonge Street: I agree that this comparison may be a bit of an extreme and as a result may turn people off the idea of a Centre Street subway.
I mean a comparison between some of the more recent infill along Yonge Street such as around Yonge and St. Clair - not Yonge and Dundas.

This sort of thing - six-ish storey main street building types:
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=toronto&oe...zItwnjPIOcZSMzB-g&cbp=12,145.48,,0,-8.17

Instead of the current:
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=calgary&oe...U00jdJb5EM4KuDXItA&cbp=12,177.73,,0,7.21

Which would you rather live near?
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  #138  
Old Posted Dec 12, 2009, 4:07 AM
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This brings up a point I've been wondering about. I've never been on a streetcar. Can you specify what makes the ridership experience better? Will I get home faster? Will the ride be more comfortable? Will the thing show up more reliably than a bus? Will I wait for less time for one? Anything I'm missing?
Here's 36 reasons:

From "The Infrastructurist"

Not all these reasons are directly relevant to a Canadian experience, but most are pretty bang on.

http://www.infrastructurist.com/2009/06/03/36-reasons-that-streetcars-are-better-than-buses/
  1. New streetcar lines always, always, get more passengers than the bus routes they replace.
  2. Buses, are susceptible to every pothole and height irregularity in the pavement (and in Chicago we have plenty). Streetcars ride on smooth, jointless steel rails that rarely develop bumps.
  3. Streetcars don’t feel “low status” to transit riders. Buses often do.
  4. Mapmakers almost always include streetcar lines on their city maps, and almost never put any bus route in ink. New investment follows the lines on the map.
  5. The upfront costs are higher for streetcars than buses–but that is more than made up over time in lower operating and maintenance costs. In transit you get what you pay for.
  6. There is a compelling “coolness” and “newness” factor attached to streetcars.
  7. Streetcars feel safer from a crime point of view.
  8. Steel wheel on steel rail is inherently more efficient than rubber tire on pavement. Electric streetcars can accelerate more quickly than buses.
  9. Streetcars don’t smell like diesel.
  10. Streetcars accelerate and decelerate smoothly because they’re electrically propelled. Internal-combustion engines acting through a transmission simply cannot surge with the same smoothness.
  11. The current length limit for a bus is 60 feet, but streetcars can go longer, since they are locked into the rails and won’t be swinging all around the streets, smashing into cars.
  12. Streetcars have an air of nostalgia.
  13. New streetcar and light rail lines usually come with an upgraded street experience from better stops, landscaping, new roadbeds, and better sidewalks, to name a few. Of course, your federal transit dollar is paying for these modernizations, so why wouldn’t cities try to get them!
  14. Perhaps the most over looked and significant difference between street cars and buses is permanence. You’ll notice that development will follow a train station, but rarely a bus stop. Rails don’t pick up and move any time soon. Once a trolley system is in place, business and investors can count on them for decades. Buses come and go.
  15. Streetcars are light and potentially 100% green. Potentially they could be powered by 100% solar and/or wind power. Even powered with regular power plant-derived electricity, they are still 95% cleaner than diesel buses. [Source? -Ed.]
  16. Streetcars stop less. Because of the increased infrastructure for stops, transit planners don’t place stops at EVERY BLOCK, like they do with buses (SEPTA in Philly is terrible for this). Instead, blocks are a quarter to a half mile apart, so any point is no more than an eigth to a quarter mile from a stop.
  17. People will travel longer distances on streetcars. At one point, in the 1930s, a person could travel to Boston from Washington solely on trolleys, with only two short gaps in the routes.
  18. Buses are noisy. I ride them every day in Chicago, and I am constantly amazed at how loud a diesel bus engine is–even on our latest-model buses [and] the valve chatter is an irritant to the nervous system. By comparison, streetcars are virtually silent.
  19. Technological advances already make the current generation definitely NOT your grandfather’s streetcar. Low floors are standard, for easy-on easy-off curbside boarding. Wide doors allow passengers to enter or exit quickly. So streetcar stops take less time than buses.
  20. Passengers can take comfort from seeing the rails stretching out far ahead of them, while ever fearing that the bus could take a wrong turn at the next corner and divert them off course.
  21. Once purchased (albeit at high cost) streetcars are cheaper to maintain and last way the hell longer (case in point, streetcars discarded in the US in the 40’s, snapped up by the Yugoslavs, which are still running).
  22. Streetcar tracks are cheaper to maintain than the roadways they displace.
  23. People get notably more excited about the proposed extension of the streetcar system and expect revitalization of the neighborhoods around the planned stops.
  24. Streetcars create more walkable streets. This is because streetcars, as mentioned above, are more attractive to riders than buses, which in turns prompt to more mass transit usage in general, which in turns prompts to more walking–a virtuous cycle that creates more attractive city streets.
  25. Most European cities and countries kept investing in public transit during the decades when America was DISinvesting. Now I look across the pond and see dozens of European cities extending or building new rail transit systems, including many streetcar lines, and conclude: ‘They probably know what they are doing; we should do some of that too.’
  26. You know exactly where a streetcar is going – but have you ever tried looking at a bus route map?
  27. Streetcars are faster than buses or trackless trolleys (aside from 2 lines in Philly, do any other cities run trackless trolleys, or trolley buses anymore?) because trams tend to have dedicated lanes. Even if they don’t, if they operate on streets with multiple lanes, people stay out of the tram lane, because it’s harder to drive a car along tram tracks (the wheels pull to one side or the other as they fall into the groove).
  28. In buses you’re still jostled by every pothole and sway at every bus stop. I thought bus rapid transit would be a significant improvement - there’s still a bit of sway and they concrete was not installed as smoothly as line of steel rail.
  29. With buses transit planners are pushed by funding formulas to capture every pocket of riders thus you can get a very wiggly route – something that’s less practical on a fixed rail system
  30. Buses lurch unpredictably from side to side as they weave in and out of traffic and as they move from the traffic lane to the curb lane to pick up passengers. In streetcars turns occur at the same location on every trip, so that even standees can more or less relax knowing the car is not going to perform any unpredictable lateral maneuvers.
  31. Most streetcar riders don’t consciously think about the differences between a bus ride and a streetcar ride. But their unconscious minds–the spinal cord, the solar plexus, the inner ear and the seat of the pants–quickly tally the differences and deliver an impressionistic conclusion: The streetcar ride is physiologically less stressful.
  32. An internal-combustion engine is constantly engaged in hammering itself to death and buses tend to vibrate themselves into a sort of metallurgical dishevelment. Interior fittings–window frames, handrails, floor coverings, seats–tend to work loose and make the interior look frowzy and uncared-for. By age 12 the bus is a piece of junk and has to be retired. A streetcar the same age is barely into its adolescence.
  33. Streetcar stops are typically given more attention than most bus routes and the information system is more advanced. In Portland, the shelters even have VMS diplays that tell you the times of the next two streetcar arrivals. This valuable information gives people the option to wait, do something else to pass the time, or walk to their destination.
  34. One great advantage of streetcars is that the infrastructure serves as an orienting and wayfinding device. The track alerts folks to the route and leads them to stops. Because they are a permanent feature of the streetscape, the routing is predictable and stable (unlike bus routes). So unlike a bus, a streetcar informs and helps citizens to formulate an image of their city, even if folks don’t ride it. It is a feature of their public realm. Because of this, these streets get greater public attention.
  35. When you ride one of the remaining historic cars in Toronto or San Francisco you can tell they’re “old” in the sense of “out of style,” but when you look around the interior everything still seems shipshape, nothing rattles, the windows open and close without binding. The rider experiences a sense of solid quality associated with Grandma’s solid-oak dining table and 1847 Rodgers Brothers silver. And that makes everybody feel good. Unlike, say, an aging bus.
  36. For those of you who cannot see the difference between a bus and a streetcar, I suggest riding a streetcar when you get the chance. Then, if you can locate a bus that more or less follows the same route, give that a try. Compare the two experiences.
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  #139  
Old Posted Dec 12, 2009, 5:50 AM
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Originally Posted by outoftheice View Post
Perhaps approaching 64th Ave, it would make sense to have the subway curve off of Centre Street and return to a surface right-of-way along the CPR tracks. It would then follow the route the City has proposed complete with the station at 96th Ave. I think this would be a good compromise as it would still allow for the idea of an airport transportation hub at 96th Ave and still have a subway along the key area of Centre Street for re-development (between downtown and 40th Ave N as mentioned in Plan It. It would also take some of the cost off the price of the project as it would remove some the cost of constructing a subway between 64th Ave and Beddington Trail. It could be win-win.
Approaching 64th the ROW of Centre st widens significantly to the point you could build on the surface/trench north of 64th. However, the line wound have to turn back into a subway north of Beddington Blvd as the ROW narrows again. However you could go to the east along Beddington Blvd and head back towards the CPR tracks/Nose Creek.

Heading back towards CPR tracks around 64th would require the line to go under 64th as there isn't any space anywhere. So it might be a wash cost of going above ground but longer route versus shorter but tunneled.
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Old Posted Dec 12, 2009, 5:35 PM
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fusili fusili is offline
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Thanks for the post Wooster. Great points raised. All forms of transportation have different advantages- walking, bicycling, driving, carpooling, bus, BRT, streetcar, LRT, commuter rail- and different functions. Saying that any one is superior to all others is ignoring the different roles they serve.
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