NC LRT Advocacy Group

[Wooster]

There are a few that run down Centre - the #3 is the primary one along with the BRT, which is meant to serve as a pre-cursor to the LRT - which is funny because they are trying to establish this mobility pattern even though the planned route is different. Why not not run the BRT up and down Deerfoot???? it would be about as useful as the Nose Creek LRT route for people in North-Central Calgary!

The #2 runs primarily on 4th NW, th #5 is on Edmonton Trail.

I would think that you wouldn't need to run any buses on Centre Street anymore - the other two parallel routes would probably become redundant too. I imagine they would reconfigure the bus system into a more East-West orientation at intervals to serve as more of a feeder network into the LRT. That's how a corridor like Yonge Street works in Toronto.

[frinkprof]

^I agree with the principal argument you are making, however, I'll just some additional information for completeness.

In addition to the routes you mention, there are also a number of express buses that travel Centre Street, namely:

64, 62, 109, 116, 142. Route 17 also travels a small portion of Centre Street, between 8th Avenue North and downtown.

All these express buses (all but the 17) travel in peak time only though, and either of the Nose Creek or Centre Street alignments would eliminate their necessity.

Also, it should be mentioned that bus service would likely continue on Centre Street in the scenario of a Centre Street LRT alignment. However, this service would likely be very very minimal and only be there to provide the few more local trips there would be along the corridor, and/or fill in if there is a service disruption on the LRT line. Think of the current route 81 along MacLeod Trail.

[Wooster]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

Also, it should be mentioned that bus service would likely continue on Centre Street in the scenario of a Centre Street LRT alignment. However, this service would likely be very very minimal and only be there to provide the few more local trips there would be along the corridor, and/or fill in if there is a service disruption on the LRT line. Think of the current route 81 along MacLeod Trail.

Assuming a decent frequency of stops I see no reason for a bus other than perhaps in the middle of the night. The only bus that ever runs Yonge Street in Toronto is the vomit-comit, which only runs on the weekend nights after the subway stops operation around 1:20am. No reason to think Centre Street would function any differently.

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by Wooster

There are a few that run down Centre - the #3 is the primary one along with the BRT, which is meant to serve as a pre-cursor to the LRT - which is funny because they are trying to establish this mobility pattern even though the planned route is different. Why not not run the BRT up and down Deerfoot???? it would be about as useful as the Nose Creek LRT route for people in North-Central Calgary!

The #2 runs primarily on 4th NW, th #5 is on Edmonton Trail.

I would think that you wouldn't need to run any buses on Centre Street anymore - the other two parallel routes would probably become redundant too. I imagine they would reconfigure the bus system into a more East-West orientation at intervals to serve as more of a feeder network into the LRT. That's how a corridor like Yonge Street works in Toronto.

The #2 and #5 might still be needed depending on how the entire system was reworked. The distance between 4th NW and Centre Street is roughly comparable to Elbow Drive and the S LRT line. The #3 on Elbow is still very busy and, as previously mentioned, there is the 81 right on MacLeod.

Related to this topic, does any one remember the news release from some time back that specifically mentioned the bus ridership on Centre Street? If I recall it was something on the order of 30 000 riders a day just between the #3 and the #301.

[Wooster]

Originally Posted by Bassic Lab

The #2 and #5 might still be needed depending on how the entire system was reworked. The distance between 4th NW and Centre Street is roughly comparable to Elbow Drive and the S LRT line. The #3 on Elbow is still very busy and, as previously mentioned, there is the 81 right on MacLeod.

Related to this topic, does any one remember the news release from some time back that specifically mentioned the bus ridership on Centre Street? If I recall it was something on the order of 30 000 riders a day just between the #3 and the #301.

That's a good argument for the LRT - that's high ridership for a bus corridor - it would be even greater on LRT for sure.

Yeah, you may keep running the 2, I don't know.

[SubwayRev]

Originally Posted by Wooster

There are a few that run down Centre - the #3 is the primary one along with the BRT, which is meant to serve as a pre-cursor to the LRT - which is funny because they are trying to establish this mobility pattern even though the planned route is different. Why not not run the BRT up and down Deerfoot???? it would be about as useful as the Nose Creek LRT route for people in North-Central Calgary!
...

I think this is exactly right. Picture the ridership on the 301 in the North, if you had to get to Deerfoot to catch it. The stations would be so isolated and distant from anything. Just as any LRT station would be too.

[MasterG]

Originally Posted by SubwayRev

I think this is exactly right. Picture the ridership on the 301 in the North, if you had to get to Deerfoot to catch it. The stations would be so isolated and distant from anything. Just as any LRT station would be too.

This is a good point, a BRT would be very similar, probably cost a whole lot less too haha

[fusili]

Originally Posted by MasterG

This is a good point, a BRT would be very similar, probably cost a whole lot less too haha

Maybe we should just run a BRT up Nosecreek, a metro under Centre Street and a tram under Edmonton Trail and call it a day. And a funicular up the embankment from Sunnyside to Crescent Heights. And a zip line from the Bow to the Stronghold climbing wall.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by Bassic Lab

If I recall it was something on the order of 30 000 riders a day just between the #3 and the #301.

I don't know what it is, but I gave on the 301 because I couldn't take it and have a good clue when I would get downtown. They are stuffed before they reach Centre Street and don't significantly empty until BVS. Most days the earliest I could actually be certain I would get on the bus is around 8:45.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by SubwayRev

I think this is exactly right. Picture the ridership on the 301 in the North, if you had to get to Deerfoot to catch it. The stations would be so isolated and distant from anything. Just as any LRT station would be too.

I don't think many people are riding the 301 from South of 64th Ave. If only for not being able to get on the bus. I don't see any scenario in which the 3 doesn't remain unchanged.

[Doug]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

I wouldn't jump to that conclusion based on the South LRT - the area east of the LRT and McLeod Trail is a limitless wasteland - no matter what you build there is another block of blight, that makes it difficult to impossible to build a livable community.

In the North you have a golf course that has been for sale in the past and you have an industrial area with extremely defined barriers that is much smaller and could be redeveloped much more decisively. On one side there is Deerfoot Trail and on the other Nose Creek, there isn't another dozen blocks of warehouses. A new community also benefits from the proximity to other nearby residential communities with schools, recreation and the like.

I believe that Fox Hollow sits on land leased from the City. When it first opened in the mid 80's, it was definately leased land (side note, Fox Hollow has at one tiime owned by Larry Ryckman). The Fox Hollow lands combined with the adjacent Spring Gardens transit garage and maintenance depot would provide a huge area for redevelopment even if the Greenview Indsutrial park were not redeveloped. I could see a restored Nose Creek and an east-west link to Confederation Park making the area desirable. Over and above the noise issues from Deerfoot, the 32nd connector and the CPR line, various parts of the Nose Creek Valley have been used as landfill in the past so there could be vast stretches that cannot be built upon.

Regardless, no amount of densification along Centre could possibly make up for the incremental $1-2B for a subway vs. a surface alignment.

[Northski]

The capital costs of the Canada Line in vancouver was 100million/km, I would expected the center street alignment to have a similar cost per km. The center street alignment is 13km long. Giving an estimated cost of 1.3 billion(2006 dollars). If you guess that a nose hill creek alignment can be built for 60million/km which is significantly less than west lrt you get a capital cost of 960million for the 16km addition to the NE line. The total length of the Nosehill route with the existing NE LRT would be 20kms.

Since the center street alignment would be central to the corridor and travel times would be much better for North of beddingtion trail as the distance would be shorter, I would guess the route to have 2-3 times the ridership.

Supposing that the 8th ave subway is built, can 7th ave handle two lines at 1.5 million calgarians? If not the cost of putting 7th ave into a second subway will have to be added to the cost of the nose hill alignment(~450million).

The north central corridor review failed to taken into consideration ridership, travel time, and the capacity of the 7th ave transit mall when it recommend the nosehill alignment.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by Northski

The north central corridor review failed to taken into consideration ridership, travel time, and the capacity of the 7th ave transit mall when it recommend the nosehill alignment.

Not to mention redevelopment potential (both residential and commercial), and commuting habits from the 301 BRT.

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by Northski

The capital costs of the Canada Line in vancouver was 100million/km, I would expected the center street alignment to have a similar cost per km. The center street alignment is 13km long. Giving an estimated cost of 1.3 billion(2006 dollars). If you guess that a nose hill creek alignment can be built for 60million/km which is significantly less than west lrt you get a capital cost of 960million for the 16km addition to the NE line. The total length of the Nosehill route with the existing NE LRT would be 20kms.

Since the center street alignment would be central to the corridor and travel times would be much better for North of beddingtion trail as the distance would be shorter, I would guess the route to have 2-3 times the ridership.

Supposing that the 8th ave subway is built, can 7th ave handle two lines at 1.5 million calgarians? If not the cost of putting 7th ave into a second subway will have to be added to the cost of the nose hill alignment(~450million).

The north central corridor review failed to taken into consideration ridership, travel time, and the capacity of the 7th ave transit mall when it recommend the nosehill alignment.

To be fair most, if not all, of the time saving achieved from the more direct Centre Street route would be eaten up by more frequent stops, while the Nose Creek alignment would likely cost significantly less than 60 million/kilometer.

The argument should be made on 7th Ave capacity and the transformative effect on North Central Calgary that can both be benefited from the Centre Street alignment.

[Koolfire]

Originally Posted by Bassic Lab

To be fair most, if not all, of the time saving achieved from the more direct Centre Street route would be eaten up by more frequent stops, while the Nose Creek alignment would likely cost significantly less than 60 million/kilometer.

The argument should be made on 7th Ave capacity and the transformative effect on North Central Calgary that can both be benefited from the Centre Street alignment.

The amount of stations you have would be pretty even. There is an additional 2 stops if you interline with NE (Zoo and Bridgeland) and Aurora Business park gets a stop that wouldn't if you go Centre St. If you go Centre st, there wouldn't be more then 6 on Centre (8th, 16th, 32nd/40th, North of Mcknight, North of 64th and Beddington).

[Dado]

Are the Nose Creek and Centre Street alignments a mutually exclusive choice?

Why not use the Nose Creek alignment to serve the airport and development in Harvest Hills while the Centre Street alignment could terminate around Beddington Trail or Harvest Hills Business Park (with an interchange station of course)? Another possibility is to run the Nose Creek LRT further up Symons Valley along Beddington Trail and run the Centre Street LRT into Harvest Hills. This would serve the more distant suburbs of the north with a quasi-commuter rail service while serving the communities along Centre Street with something somewhat more tram-like.

It would even be possible to run a Nose Creek-based LRT service into Harvest Hills initially and convert it to a Centre Street-based low-floor LRT service later - just make sure the station platforms are made with modular blocks that can be removed to lower them and/or that the tracks can be raised within the station.

[Wooster]

I could see a surface streetcar running to about 64th avenue up centre street as a compromise if the Nose Creek alignment is ultimately chosen. To me though, it's much better to just bite the bullet and do Centre Street underground - leave nose creek as the heavy rail commuter line from Airdrie and the HSR. The long term benefit far, far outweighs the short term capital cost. Hopefully (like Canada Line) this line could be primarily funded by senior levels of government, particularly the federal government who has contributed as of late to Canada's other large Canadian cities. Time for Calgary to push for its share.

[outoftheice]

As Wooster mentioned, the key to this issue is that all the development opportunities that the Nose Creek Valley offers can be exploited by the proposed regional heavy-rail link to Airdrie. This is the biggest reason why a Nose Creek LRT doesn't make sense to me. If you base your future projections off of the current transportation plans being used, one day Nose Creek will have an LRT line, a regional heavy rail line, and a high speed inter-city rail line all running parallel to each other up a valley where very few people currently live. Enough if certain areas of the Nose Creek Valley are redeveloped, how much rail service does one area need?? Putting the LRT up Nose Creek also by-passes the 100,000 residents that live along the Centre Street corridor between downtown and Beddington Trail and feeds even more train traffic onto the 7th Ave transit mall. Build the LRT up Centre Street as a subway and link it up to the SE LRT downtown to avoid putting any more trains onto already congested infrastructure. Use the right-of-way currently set aside for the LRT to build a seperate right-of-way for regional rail up Nose Creek. Stick to the UK model of train service (short train-sets, frequent service) for the regional rail and use that to service future developments along Nose Creek. Will this option cost more in the long-run? Yes. But will this option provide the city with the greatest long term benefit? Yes. Time for Calgary to acknowledge it's a city of 1,000,000+ people and spend properly on transit.

[MonctonGoldenFlames]

Originally Posted by outoftheice

If you base your future projections off of the current transportation plans being used, one day Nose Creek will have an LRT line, a regional heavy rail line, and a high speed inter-city rail line all running parallel to each other up a valley where very few people currently live. Enough if certain areas of the Nose Creek Valley are redeveloped, how much rail service does one area need??

sure, if this scenario plays out, the nose creek will have plenty of rail lines, but realistically, only one of the 3 will actually offer the type of frequency that people can rely on for daily needs...the lrt.

the commuter rail wouldn't even run on an hourly basis. the 'go train' from barrie to union station for example only runs hourly during the day, so i see no way an airdrie to calgary route would require nearly that frequency. hardly anything you would call efficient inner city transit.

the hsr is not even an option for inner city transport. although, if the nose creek is the chosen alignment for lrt, it would make a beautiful connection/transfer point at the 'airport' hsr/lrt station area. i really see this a huge benefit to going nose creek.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by Wooster

I could see a surface streetcar running to about 64th avenue up centre street as a compromise if the Nose Creek alignment is ultimately chosen. To me though, it's much better to just bite the bullet and do Centre Street underground - leave nose creek as the heavy rail commuter line from Airdrie and the HSR.

A commuter rail service wouldn't run with enough frequency and not only will HSR never be built it certainly wouldn't have multiple stops along nose creek.

Centre Street as an urban corridor is actually an area that can be efficiently served by bus at all hours, a trolley used to run as far as the 78th Ave bus loop in Huntington Hills until 1975 it was abandoned because conventional buses were more practical and less disruptive to other traffic and the overhead catenary too vulnerable to damage.