Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by officedweller

I recall one of the issues about having a full length walk-through train is that the carhouse / maintenance facility at Edmonds cannot accommodate a full 80m train (so they need to be able to split up easily / remotely, which articulated cars cannot do).
Given the space constraints at Edmonds - that would probably mean a new carhouse / maintenance facility elsewhere at huge cost.

...

This also reminds me of the Bombardier facility across Southridge Dr from Edmonds OMC. Isn't this still owned by the BC Govt?

Google Map view:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s...122.956796&spn=0.00607,0.021973&t=h&z=16

Zooming in, you can see the tracks beside the building, the tracks leading into the building, the unused track on the SkyTrain bridge over Southridge, and the broken connection from the north side of the bridge to Edmonds OMC.

If the BC Govt still owns the building & land, why not reuse the building as the "Southridge OMC" for maintaining 3-car train sets.

If the building can't be rehabbed for use as an OMC, why not build a new "Southridge OMC" for maintaining 3-car train sets there, leaving Edmonds OMC for maintaining the original fleet.

If the decision is made to stick with the current train sets, but storage space is needed, clear this site & use it for open air train storage.

Perhaps TransLink can use this site to build a storage yard that is decked over & has a few floors of TransLink office space overhead.

[mooks28]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

This also reminds me of the Bombardier facility across Southridge Dr from Edmonds OMC. Isn't this still owned by the BC Govt?

It isn't. I believe it's Mac & Jac? Some kind of textile company of some sort, I think.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by mooks28

It isn't. I believe it's Mac & Jac? Some kind of textile company of some sort, I think.

I wouldn't be surprised if they are leasing the space. Few manufacturers (of anything) want to sink their precious capital into buildings when leasing could be cheaper.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Anyways, they really should include the M-Line extension to Cambie as part of the Evergreen Line project (or at least fast track that portion of the M-Line extension). Would this portion also be among the cheapest portions of the M-Line extension for a good chunk of it would be built as an elevated guideway?

Some of that route is already built as storage by VCC-Clark, so there isn't too much guideway needed to reach Finning. If tunneled from Finning, it would be what, 2 km or maybe 2.5 km. The big expense would be in procuring a TBM. Oh, look! They'll be getting a TBM in 2011 for a related project. :-) Then all they would need is a property near City Hall in which to build a portal pit, which could be covered over & used as a bus loop afterward.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

Perhaps the new Evergreen OMC should be built for maintaining 3-car (A-C-B) train sets, and let Edmonds continue maintaining the shorter train sets.

If Edmonds OMC becomes obsolete a few decades from now, build a bigger & better OMC in Surrey.

Evergreen isn't getting an OMC. If anything it's getting a storage yard. No operations centre (trains will be controlled from Edmonds), no maintenance facility.

******
I think the Bombardier research centre building was sold.

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Anyways, they really should include the M-Line extension to Cambie as part of the Evergreen Line project (or at least fast track that portion of the M-Line extension). Would this portion also be among the cheapest portions of the M-Line extension for a good chunk of it would be built as an elevated guideway?

For some reason (not sure why) the plans for the Vancouver West segment through the Finning lands show an underground station for Finning Station (cut and cover), then the bored tunnel starts in the hill under Prince Edward St. I don't see why it can't be elevated - probably due to aesthetics.

**********

May as well toss in another issue:

The Evergreen Line is part of the "T-Line" provided for under the Livable Region Strategic Plan. The Vancouver West segment of the M-Line would also be part of the T-Line, but only to, say, Arbutus or Granville - not all the way to UBC.

To plow through the UBC Line before the Evergereen Line would probably require an amendment to the Livable Region Strategic Plan (just ike the SE corridor would have required for Evergreen) - and that requires the unanimous consent of all Metro Vancouver municipalities (I doubt the Tri-Cities would agree).

The new Regional Growth Strategy, however, does indicate a rapid transit link to UBC (rail or bus), but that hasn't yet been passed by Metro Vancouver.

[Rusty Gull]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

I dont think you quite understand how the proposal and implementation stages of a mega project work... Especially in a society such as ours.

I do understand.

But you have to do the heaviest lifting for the projects with the biggest pay-off.

How do you think the Canada Line was built? Reputations were won and lost. Alliances were broken. Hell, some politicians broke ranks, and some political parties split. There was blood everywhere.

And yet, it did become a reality in the end, and the region is better off for it.

On the other hand, you don't just forge ahead with a megaproject just because it has the fewest number of Nimbies against it.

[mooks28]

Yeah. Democracy's a pain, ain't it?

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by mooks28

Yeah. Democracy's a pain, ain't it?

Or Churchill's famous dictum:
"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."
(from a House of Commons speech on Nov. 11, 1947)

[WarrenC12]

Well, it took a whole week, but it looks like I'm banned from the blog, lol.

I had to take a stand for all of us reasonable people out there.

Our friend zweisystem accused me of "libel" for saying there's no wonder he's been banned from other local forums and blogs with his myopic view and unrelenting hatred for Translink and Skytrain in particular. Typically truth is a valid defense against libel, but not in his world. It's the only blog where each post is held up until he can compose a direct reply... a very fascist style of operation. Oh well.

[Metro-One]

Haha, Well they definitely have an agenda, and one has to eliminate those who oppose it first! hehe.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Well, it took a whole week, but it looks like I'm banned from the blog, lol.

I had to take a stand for all of us reasonable people out there.

Our friend zweisystem accused me of "libel" for saying there's no wonder he's been banned from other local forums and blogs with his myopic view and unrelenting hatred for Translink and Skytrain in particular. Typically truth is a valid defense against libel, but not in his world. It's the only blog where each post is held up until he can compose a direct reply... a very fascist style of operation. Oh well.

For some people, this would be a badge of honour; or perhaps a "Ban of Honour"

[mooks28]

Yeah, there is something weird about that whole blog. I find it really weird that every second or third post references nazis. I don't care how bad you think Translink or Skytrain or anything else is, that's just beyond contempt.

And he wonders why no one pays the slightest bit of attention to him; the most ineffective campaigner ever.

[trofirhen]

While realizing that any project as large in scope as a rail transit extension nearly half-way across the city is $$hugely expensive, disruptive to those living near or along it, and forces questions as to what form it should take, the recent posts on this thread have lapsed into ideological nail-biting and throat-cutting.

Please; given that the objective of this thread is to explore - and hopefully find and settle on - a way to extend the Millenium Line west to UBC most effectively, could we not back off from the politics, ideologies, and hostilities, and get back to "nuts and bolts," as this thread is designed to do?

How and when are we going to extend the rail line to UBC is the question, so please, people, let's focus on that, if possible. Thank you

[Rusty Gull]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Please; given that the objective of this thread is to explore - and hopefully find and settle on - a way to extend the Millenium Line west to UBC most effectively, could we not back off from the politics, ideologies, and hostilities, and get back to "nuts and bolts," as this thread is designed to do?

Trofirhen, I agree that this feud has become personal. But, to echo the kids in the schoolyard: "They started it".

But seriously. I support UBC Skytrain AND Rail to the Valley. To me, both represent the greater good - sustainable modes of transport that move people efficiently and get people out of their cars.

I would have never thought that Malcolm, Stephen and company would be so adamantly opposed to SkyTrain (especially SkyTrain to UBC) that they would blame it for our society's ills. But that's exactly what happens on a number of blogs, websites and public forums every day. I've never seen so few voices take up so much of the public debate. Frankly, the rest of us are just too busy with our lives to keep up with them.

This same gang has chosen to take the low road with their name-calling and personal attacks, and have hijacked the transportation agenda in Metro Vancouver, so I commend the folks on this forum who have chosen to fight back.

[PaperTiger]

Let me chime in with my two cents, and they may not be popular.

Skytrain to UBC makes absolutely no sense. At best UBC should be served by a light rail connection. Before I get throttled I will explain why, and I think other people may have made some of these point before but here goes:

1) The Province has finite resources, and a dollar spent on the UBC line is a dollar taken from somewhere else. We can say they should “do it all” until we are blue in the face, but it won’t change the fact that they simply cannot afford to do all the projects that need doing.

2) The areas that this train would run through are some of the fiercest NIMBY’s in the city, if not the world (seriously). Have we forgotten the “Crème de la Crème” comments with regard to running light rail down Arbutus? And this was an existing rail corridor. The Nimby factor has impacts in two ways:

a. First, it will mean that if it does go ahead it will be using the absolutely most expensive construction method possible, thereby stealing even more dollars from other needed projects.

b. Second, they will prevent the kind of high density development needed to make this kind of investment justifiable. When planning for transit oriented communities Planners use a 500m radius as a rule of thumb. In order to make a train like this successful, you want as many people as possible living and working within that radius, which means if not towers at least midrise development five blocks north and south of the station which puts you smack in the middle of the single family ‘hoods that line the Broadway corridor. Never going to happen.

If we compare that to some of the other options for this investment, (Evergreen to Port Coquitlam, Skytrain to Guilford, Light rail for the rest of the valley) it just doesn’t make sense. With those other projects you have the ability to truly shape land use patterns and capture a lot more of the region’s population growth in transit oriented developments, rather than serving existing single family neighbourhoods that will never be anything else.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by PaperTiger

Let me chime in with my two cents, and they may not be popular. Skytrain to UBC makes absolutely no sense.

I think you are ignoring the elephant in the room, which is UBC itself. This line is not just about density on Broadway. It is about the traffic to and from the destination at the far end of Broadway. If we can increase density along the line, that is really just icing on the cake. The essential issue is UBC itself. As a transit destination, UBC rivals all of the Evergreen communities combined.

We just built a line to the next-largest employment centre in Metro after UBC (i.e. YVR), replacing the next-biggest transit corridor after Broadway (i.e. Granville), even though some stations along that line will never be densified. Many Expo station neighbourhoods stayed low-density to this day, for that matter. NIMBY's don't mean a line isn't built.

[Rothwell]

Originally Posted by PaperTiger

Let me chime in with my two cents, and they may not be popular.

Skytrain to UBC makes absolutely no sense. At best UBC should be served by a light rail connection. Before I get throttled I will explain why, and I think other people may have made some of these point before but here goes:

1) The Province has finite resources, and a dollar spent on the UBC line is a dollar taken from somewhere else. We can say they should “do it all” until we are blue in the face, but it won’t change the fact that they simply cannot afford to do all the projects that need doing.

2) The areas that this train would run through are some of the fiercest NIMBY’s in the city, if not the world (seriously). Have we forgotten the “Crème de la Crème” comments with regard to running light rail down Arbutus? And this was an existing rail corridor. The Nimby factor has impacts in two ways:

a. First, it will mean that if it does go ahead it will be using the absolutely most expensive construction method possible, thereby stealing even more dollars from other needed projects.

b. Second, they will prevent the kind of high density development needed to make this kind of investment justifiable. When planning for transit oriented communities Planners use a 500m radius as a rule of thumb. In order to make a train like this successful, you want as many people as possible living and working within that radius, which means if not towers at least midrise development five blocks north and south of the station which puts you smack in the middle of the single family ‘hoods that line the Broadway corridor. Never going to happen.

If we compare that to some of the other options for this investment, (Evergreen to Port Coquitlam, Skytrain to Guilford, Light rail for the rest of the valley) it just doesn’t make sense. With those other projects you have the ability to truly shape land use patterns and capture a lot more of the region’s population growth in transit oriented developments, rather than serving existing single family neighbourhoods that will never be anything else.

/thread

[PaperTiger]

Originally Posted by Zassk

I think you are ignoring the elephant in the room, which is UBC itself. This line is not just about density on Broadway. It is about the traffic to and from the destination at the far end of Broadway. If we can increase density along the line, that is really just icing on the cake. The essential issue is UBC itself. As a transit destination, UBC rivals all of the Evergreen communities combined.

We just built a line to the next-largest employment centre in Metro after UBC (i.e. YVR), replacing the next-biggest transit corridor after Broadway (i.e. Granville), even though some stations along that line will never be densified. Many Expo station neighbourhoods stayed low-density to this day, for that matter. NIMBY's don't mean a line isn't built.

We built a 300 million largely at-grade spur line to YVR off a Richmond line that intends to add 120,000 people around 4 (soon to be 5) Richmond stations. If you remove that 300 million the Richmond line would only have cost 1.6 billion vs. the UBC line's 2.8 billion, (and we all know it is going to be way more than 2.8 billion).

The only Expo line stations that have stayed low density are Nanaimo and to a lesser degree Broadway, which coincidently are both in established neighbourhoods in the CoV.

We have to really look at what are goals are, get people who are taking transit anyway out to UBC faster, or shape a region over the next 20 years that is more affordable and sustainable by guiding land use in place that have really capacity to grow. And by grow I mean accommodate the tens of thousands of people that move to Metro Vancouver every year, not just throw up a couple of dozen high priced condo buildings on the endowment lands.

I’m not saying don’t increase capacity to UBC, I’m just saying do it in a cost effective way. Not every line needs to be a Mercedes, sometimes a Kia will suffice.

[Alex Mackinnon]

So what you're saying is Finning isn't going to be dense relatively soon? Main isn't rebuilding? Cambie hasn't seen a lot of redevelopment? Heather/Oak doesn't have scores of offices and the ever expanding hospital? Granville doesn't have constantly developing high end condos? Arbutus isn't seeing a large volume of 5 and 6 floor developments?

Honestly the only areas that aren't already working up to higher density are McDonald, Alma and Sasamat. Oddly enough though they still tend to be busier than any bus stop I've seen in the valley. Heck, when the busses stack its not uncommon for one of these stops to be able to crush load an empty 60' bus.

[Zassk]

^Add to that list UBC itself, which is growing by leaps and bounds (both in population and jobs), and has a huge potential for further growth. So what if 3 stations in the middle have low growth prospects? We're talking about the busiest transit corridor in the province after Expo Line itself. We already convinced the people along this corridor to switch to transit. There is no uncertainty about ridership or revenues. The business case is solid.

I don't see how we can build a "Kia" line along Broadway that will improve on the existing bus service. The road is narrow and congested. The only way to improve transit on that route is by grade separation - whether you run Rotems or Mark II's or LRT's or buses or horsedrawn wagons on it. Grade separation means either 1) elevated, 2) underground, or 3) a transit-dedicated parallel road.