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  #10521  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2009, 8:26 AM
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Transport politic - need to respod to blog post

A few forumers probably the Transport Politic, a widely read blog on transport issues in North America. They did a recent post on the Canada Line that is mainly negative on the merits of the P3 aspect. Some points are valid, but unfortunately IMO don't capture the success of the canada line. A lot of the links they use to highlight problems with the canada line come from very partisan sources, such as the doravright webiste.

I would be great if we were able to get a few posts up that help to give some balance to the arguement. The P3 does have its flaws, but they mix up a lot of the arguement (eg - limits set by the RFP, not by the P3 aspect) and I still think that we have a good system built.
     
     
  #10522  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2009, 5:06 PM
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I think the writer at the Transport Politic does ignore the fact that the line is doing quite well ridership-wise, yes.

But he brings up some pretty valid points about PPP, which as we all know around here, can be a contentious and politically charged issue. Very valid points about private operators abandoning projects in lean economic times, as they did with HSR in Taiwan, and he makes a decent point that public organizations can borrow at lower interest rates. I think the real issue most of us have, is the quality of the product. Not than much of an issue now, but 20-30 years down the line we may be looking back at PPPs as a very short-sighted move for projects like the Canada Line.

Either way, I'm glad the line was built.
     
     
  #10523  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2009, 5:51 PM
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The only thing that frustrates me is the quantity and routing of trains - I am satisfied with the other aspects of the line. IMO it should be a red flag that a brand new line already has some of the busiest stations on the network and that trains are already at crush load at certain hours. I hope that they are still in a 3- or 6-month evaluation period, and that the train schedule will be revisited after more ridership data has been collected.
     
     
  #10524  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2009, 6:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kylemacmac View Post
I think the writer at the Transport Politic does ignore the fact that the line is doing quite well ridership-wise, yes.

But he brings up some pretty valid points about PPP, which as we all know around here, can be a contentious and politically charged issue. Very valid points about private operators abandoning projects in lean economic times, as they did with HSR in Taiwan, and he makes a decent point that public organizations can borrow at lower interest rates. I think the real issue most of us have, is the quality of the product. Not than much of an issue now, but 20-30 years down the line we may be looking back at PPPs as a very short-sighted move for projects like the Canada Line.

Either way, I'm glad the line was built.
On the other hand, in the less than 30 year period InTransitBC will still be involved in the project. They won't realize full profit potential until the completion of the contract at that time. If for some reason they cut corners or slack off, the payments stop. And if cracks start showing up in the system in the next 20 years, SNC Lavalin will be losing on their $700 million investment. Being tied to the project for 30 years to realize their profit encourages them to build it right.

Under the normal public funding/bid model, private companies out to make money are still involved. But they are not tied to the long term success of a project. They get all their money up front, and have to put zero into it. What would SNC Lavalin care if Canada Line fell apart 10 years from now if they already made all their profits.

I use the Skybridge as an example. It's only 20 or so years old and cracks are forming in it and pieces have fallen off. It was a project a company bid on, meaning they had to have the lowest bid, and because they are a company, turn a profit. After the bridge was project was finished, they got their cash and walked away.

Another example is home building. We have appartment buildings, which like a P3 is a long term investment by the developer. We have many old apartment buildings that are over 30 and 40 years old, which have had hardly a problem in that time. On the other hand, we have thousands of condos built in the 90s, where they were build and forget, and now they leak. The developer made all their money up front, so who cared if they leaked 10 years down the road. If for example, you got the mortgage straight from the developer for a condo, instead of a bank, that way the developer wouldn't realize max profit until the amortization period was over, imagine how much better they would be built.

If private companies and contractors are going to be involved in building infrastructure, which they always will be at some level (Skytrain uses Bombardier Technology, not the people of BC's Technology), then I'm all for the idea of tying them to the project for a long long time to guarantee it's built right.

In a perfect world we wouldn't need a P3 because contractors would be honorable and build products that last, but alas, this isn't a perfect world. I would prefer it if there wasn't a need for a P3 and the public could realize the full profit potential of this project (and over the long term it will make money), but companies are self centered and concerned about themselves. A P3 puts the contractors interests inline with the publics: a successful, long lasting transit system.
     
     
  #10525  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2009, 7:09 PM
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Well said BCPhil!

Somehow there is this blanket assumption out there that publicly run systems (health care, public transit, etc), don't involve private companies or profit making at any level. It's simply not true.
     
     
  #10526  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2009, 9:13 PM
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http://www.bclocalnews.com/news/70395682.html

Highlights:

A forecast that the $2-billion Canada Line will lose money until 2025 is no surprise, according to TransLink officials.

B.C.'s Comptroller General, in her review of TransLink, noted the newly opened line's costs will exceed its revenues by $14 to $21 million a year for most years until then.

TransLink spokesman Ken Hardie said that's partly because TransLink has accelerated the repayment of its $545-million share of the cost of building the Canada Line.
The financing of the line linking Richmond, Vancouver and the airport was fronted by private partner InTransitBC.

"We're going to pay it off sooner and own it sooner," Hardie said.

It's also normal for a new rapid transit line to be subsidized for years before approaching breakeven, he said.

The original two SkyTrain lines now make money, but fares recover only 55 per cent of the broader cost of transit service.

The Comptroller General also noted the direct Canada Line revenues don't count additional revenue TransLink may attract in part because the line makes the system as a whole more attractive.

The report found most of TransLink's cost pressures are being driven by bus system expansion, particularly into areas with low ridership, not the launch of the Canada Line.

"TransLink's debt has more than tripled since 2005," the report noted.

The report noted the Canada Line was pushed ahead of TransLink's priority to build the Evergreen Line first.

"The provincial priority was to participate in the Canada Line, in part because they felt it had a stronger business case and because of the desire to have the line available for the Olympics," the report said. "Given the provincial and federal funding availability, TransLink proceeded with the Canada Line."
     
     
  #10527  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2009, 9:40 PM
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Excellent points BCPhil.
     
     
  #10528  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2009, 10:03 PM
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Great post BCPhil. I never thought of it in ways you have pointed out. In Mr. X's article, does this mean that TransLink is going to own it sooner...
     
     
  #10529  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2009, 10:19 PM
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While Translink has kept the mouth shut about C-Line ridership figure after first week of October, there is a new figure on Seattle Link ridership: 16,100 per weekday in October.
Source: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2010272103_airportlink14m.html

daily breakdown: http://www.bettertransport.info/pitf/LinkBoardingsEstimateSummary.10.09.pdf
     
     
  #10530  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2009, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by CLC View Post
While Translink has kept the mouth shut about C-Line ridership figure after first week of October, there is a new figure on Seattle Link ridership: 16,100 per weekday in October.
Just out of curiosity, anyone know the Skytrain ridership number for, say, the first 6 months of the Skytrain in 1985-86? 16,100 seems pathetically small.
     
     
  #10531  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2009, 1:02 AM
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Hopefully this won't ever happen with our close-to-the-surface tunnels:

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/727602--thousands-caught-in-commuter-chaos?bn=1#article
Quote:
TTC repair crews are working hard to fix a section of the Yonge subway line pierced by a road saw in time for tomorrow's rush hour.
     
     
  #10532  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2009, 1:04 AM
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Hehe, I saw that on CTV Toronto News. HUGE lineups, they were using 50 shuttle buses in lieu of the train, which holds 1200 people.

Lots of people mad Especially since it was just announced they'll be having a fare hike!
     
     
  #10533  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2009, 1:20 AM
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7 minutes is beyond decent for airport rail. Trofirhen, I like to remind you that RER B in Paris from Charles de Gaulle runs every 10-15 minutes. BART from San Francisco Airport also has the same frequency.
Well.. I'm planning to go to San Jose next year on a trip, and I've book a hotel near the light rail line, and thought.. hey, that line connects the airport, the hotel, and the place I need to go.. how convenient, eh?

And now I just found out that.. the light rail line runs every 30 minutes on weekends and off-peak weekdays... is that even considered a mass transit? or just some infrequent bus route on rail..?
     
     
  #10534  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2009, 1:30 AM
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mezzanine mezzanine is offline
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Originally Posted by nname View Post
Well.. I'm planning to go to San Jose next year on a trip, and I've book a hotel near the light rail line, and thought.. hey, that line connects the airport, the hotel, and the place I need to go.. how convenient, eh?

And now I just found out that.. the light rail line runs every 30 minutes on weekends and off-peak weekdays... is that even considered a mass transit? or just some infrequent bus route on rail..?
Interesting post on the Transport politic blog about San Jose's LRT system:

http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/...al-of-its-struggling-light-rail-network/

Quote:
More than 20 years after its first segment opened, the VTA Santa Clara County light rail system has yet to provoke a significant change in the land use patters of San Jose and its surroundings. Rather, the project has yet to attract major investment in areas around stations and it has done little to reinforce the tenuous status of downtown San Jose as the region’s center. ... The problem is that the failures of this rail system aren’t the lines or vehicles themselves but rather the physical form of the city.
....
VTA’s difficulties are made manifest by the system’s low ridership: despite the fact that the system now offers 42 miles of service heading in all directions from downtown, it only transports about 30,000 users a day. Per mile, it attracts the lowest ridership of all modern light rail system in the U.S.
Also of note, Portland's new green line LRT also runs at 30 min intervals weekday evenings.
     
     
  #10535  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2009, 1:42 AM
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I understand that the Santa Clara LRT has a lot of street running sections, so the speed is excruciatingly slow.
     
     
  #10536  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2009, 2:43 AM
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Translink really has to increase the King Ed bus frequency further. There are too many people waiting after getting off the C-Line.
     
     
  #10537  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2009, 2:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooks28 View Post
Just out of curiosity, anyone know the Skytrain ridership number for, say, the first 6 months of the Skytrain in 1985-86? 16,100 seems pathetically small.
I believe it was something like 40,000.
     
     
  #10538  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2009, 2:51 AM
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Originally Posted by whatnext View Post
Translink really has to increase the King Ed bus frequency further. There are too many people waiting after getting off the C-Line.
They need to do that on all routes, not just the 25. The 49 is quite severe: expect being passed heading westbound after Victoria Dr. even at 10:00.
     
     
  #10539  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2009, 2:53 AM
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Today was my first time on the Canada Line during rush hour, i was on the southbound train at 4.30 at Waterfront....man, oh man was it packed.
     
     
  #10540  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2009, 3:07 AM
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Originally Posted by mr.x View Post
Today was my first time on the Canada Line during rush hour, i was on the southbound train at 4.30 at Waterfront....man, oh man was it packed.
I still find it far less packed than the 98 B-Line (on avg)
     
     
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