Canada Line | Completed

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

I am surprised there are not LED screens in some of the underground skytrain stations. People stand and stare at the wall while waiting for the train all day!

In Japan it is crazy, they even place ads on the stairs! (literally on the rising portion of each step)

I've seen this here too. In Stadiums.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by Zassk

The M-line is ridiculously gold-plated. Everything about it screams reckless NDP spending. We will never get another line like that again. If you think the Evergreen or UBC stations will live up to the existing M-line stations, then I think you are living in a dream land.

As I said before, I would happily accept getting 3 stations at C-line quality rather than 2 stations at M-line quality for the same price.

Wasn't the entire line built for $1.167B

Hardly reckless spending, no matter what government was running the show.

[mr.x]

^ and it came in under budget too, though it was like a year late for opening.

[CLC]

Look like this Wednesday would be high chance to reach 100,000

Jill Drews VANCOUVER (NEWS1130) | Monday, October 26th, 2009 2:22 pm

Extra Canada Line service on Wednesday evening

VANCOUVER (NEWS1130) - Extra transit service is being added to help over 50,000 U2 fans get to BC Place Wednesday evening for one of the most anticipated rock shows of the year. TransLink says SkyTrain and Canada Line will run at rush hour levels before and after the concert, SeaBus will run on a 15-minute schedule and more buses will run on key routes.

Portable fare boxes will also be set up outside Stadium-Chinatown, Yaletown-Roundhouse and Vancouver City Centre SkyTrain stations for those who want to pre-buy the return fare

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Wasn't the entire line built for $1.167B

Hardly reckless spending, no matter what government was running the show.

Well, in those early-2000's dollars, wasn't the Canada Line originally priced at $1.2B too, before the bubble boom caused construction costs to soar? Infrastructure costs more now.

The Millennium Line had a very cheap right-of-way to follow comparatively, less stations, no bridges, no OMC, and bought less initial train capacity. It would of course be cheaper than Canada Line. But the fact remains that the stations specifically were gold-plated, and I doubt that'll happen on future lines.

[Millennium2002]

It is true that the Millennium Line has that "gold-plated" look with more unique designs than elsewhere. For me, at least, it still seems like a good investment to do such designs in some cases as it enhances the station's appearance. Every time I ride past these stations I still continually admire how each of them looks different from the other, unlike the majority of Expo Line stations.

On the other hand... the underground Canada Line stations don't really scream "unique" to me. They all have similar tiling patterns... and the cream + green + grey colours chosen don't really say quality either. It seems unfair but people's eyes and minds do work that way sometimes... and that also has to be taken into some consideration. I also wish for a little bit more variety... especially in Yaletown and Waterfront as the two don't match up with their surroundings.

The elevated stations have a similar issue. Again... the Richmond branch and Marine Dr Stations are almost identical quadruplets. I know that cost played a much bigger factor when they built this project but that shouldn't mean that there's no ability to change a few things here and there. Even a different roof would make everything look better... but instead each one has exactly the same roof. Not particularly appealing I'd say.

I'm probably guessing that people do not want to talk about the trains. To be honest, they're alright... the only nitpick I have is that it lacks commonality with the rest of the fleet... due to the larger size. Oh well.

One last nitpick. I've always hated how the trains slow down on Cambie St beside the QEP. They made those curves wayy too sharp. It'd be better if they just tunnelled their way through.

[CBeats]

Originally Posted by allan_kuan

One last nitpick. I've always hated how the trains slow down on Cambie St beside the QEP. They made those curves wayy too sharp. It'd be better if they just tunnelled their way through.

The reason for not tunneling under the park has been discussed extensively. However, they could have lessened the sharpness of the corners by cut-and-covering across the boulevard before and after curves, if you know what I mean. Although this would obviously destroy the boulevard around that bend because traffic would have to follow the cut-and-cover curve wherever it didn't go. I wouldn't have really minded though, but I don't live in the area. Those screeches are so lound and embarrassing and the trains go so painfully slow there that I think it would have been worth it to "dull" the sharpness of the bends around QEP.

[mr.x]

From what I've heard, the provincial government had no intention of building the Canada Line until the late Jack Poole, the chairman of the 2010 bid committee, and very close friend of Gordon Campbell suggested building some sort of rail link.

[Zassk]

The QE curve will seem ok once the 33rd Ave station is built in the middle of it. I am bugged more by some of the other slowdowns on the line, even though they are less severe, they just seem unnecessary.

[racc]

Originally Posted by Zassk

The Millennium Line had a very cheap right-of-way to follow comparatively, less stations, no bridges, no OMC, and bought less initial train capacity. It would of course be cheaper than Canada Line. But the fact remains that the stations specifically were gold-plated, and I doubt that'll happen on future lines.

The stations are nice but they are hardly gold plated. For that, check out the Moscow stations. I suspect there is actually gold plating in them. I believe the total cost for the stations was around $110 million, a small portion of the budget. The extra cost to make them look nice was a very small portion of the entire budget. The stations on the Millennium Line are also 80m as opposed to 50m. The capacity on the line is much greater than that of the Canada Line.

[deasine]

The slowdowns are intentional and have been already explained over and over again.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by racc

The stations on the Millennium Line are also 80m as opposed to 50m. The capacity on the line is much greater than that of the Canada Line.

I was unable to reconcile this statement in my head. Can you explain your reasoning?

I assume that both lines can have the same theoretical maximum frequency, so any difference in capacity will be in train sizes. Here is what I came up with -

Canada Line - 50m platforms allow for 3 x ROTEM trains, assuming the addition of 15m C-cars, which gives us train lengths of about 52m.

Millennium Line - 80m platforms allow for 4 x MKII trains or 6 x MKI trains, which are 70-72m in length. With some shoehorning, theoretically we could use 5 x MKII if we could obtain C-cars of 15m, or 7 x MKI trains, either of which would be around 85m in length.

The 5 x MKII train would hold 650 passengers.

The 7 x MKI train would hold 560 passengers.

The 3 x ROTEM train would hold 600 passengers.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by Zassk

I was unable to reconcile this statement in my head. Can you explain your reasoning?

Not capacity in terms of vehicles. With the way that the Millennium Line is built today, without interlining with the Expo Line, your capacity on the Millennium Line is similiar to that of the Expo Line. The Millennium Line is built to Expo Line standards and the platforms on the Millennium Line can be further expanded to I believe 100 metres (i.e. length of the Lougheed SkyTrain Station platform including glass separators).

[ryanmaccdn]

Ignore the numbers and I'd still say the M Line has a higher capacity in terms of platform loads/general infrastructure.

Only a handful of stations are center platform based, and you could take any of the M-Line stations and it could beat Vancouver City Center in terms of capacity.

Plus the E/M lines could easily be retooled to increase capacity far past stated limits.

I know there are alot of variables.. but im sure you could come up with some interesting numbers here.

- Use the 3rd platform at Lougheed to create a shuttle and make M line a single route line.
- Expand key stations to 100M platforms.
- Create A-C-C-C-B car trains (C- car trains would be high occupant load vehicles/mostly standing very little seating)
- Reduce headways of 90 seconds (upgrade control systems/install barrier doors on platforms/other ideas.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by Zassk

I was unable to reconcile this statement in my head. Can you explain your reasoning?

I assume that both lines can have the same theoretical maximum frequency, so any difference in capacity will be in train sizes. Here is what I came up with -

Canada Line - 50m platforms allow for 3 x ROTEM trains, assuming the addition of 15m C-cars, which gives us train lengths of about 52m.

Millennium Line - 80m platforms allow for 4 x MKII trains or 6 x MKI trains, which are 70-72m in length. With some shoehorning, theoretically we could use 5 x MKII if we could obtain C-cars of 15m, or 7 x MKI trains, either of which would be around 85m in length.

The 5 x MKII train would hold 650 passengers.

The 7 x MKI train would hold 560 passengers.

The 3 x ROTEM train would hold 600 passengers.

Capacity of vehicles don't say much alone, rather it's the combination of the capacity of the vehicles and the station designs.

True numbers:

Expo Line
- ultimate design capacity: 30,000 passengers per hour per direction

Millennium Line
- ultimate design capacity: 30,000 passengers per hour per direction

Canada Line
- ultimate design capacity: ~15,000 passengers per hour per direction



The Canada Line is significantly smaller than SkyTrain. While trains are wider, it is overrated when put to real numbers and it's offset by the much shorter platform lengths.


With further upgrades, it is believed that Expo and M-Line capacities could be increased to 40,000 pphpd. But the Canada Line is maxed out at 15,000 unless the line shuts down for a year or two and undergoes a major and very expensive overhaul.


For vehicle capacity, these are the accurate numbers:

Mark I (80 passengers per car)
- 8-car train: 640-passengers (requires platform extension)
- 7-car train: 560-passengers (requires platform extension)
- 6-car train: 480-passengers
- 5-car train: 400-passengers
- 4-car train: 320-passengers

Mark II (130 passengers per car)
- 7-car train: 910-passengers (requires platform extension)
- 6-car train: 780-passengers (requires platform extension)
- 5-car train: 650-passengers
- 4-car train: 520-passengers
- 3-car train: 390-passengers
- 2-car train: 260-passengers

Rotem Canada Line (167 passengers per car)
- 3-car train: 501-passengers (requires platform extension)
- 2-car train: 334-passengers
(do not use crush load car capacity of 200 passengers, it is not realistic)

[Millennium2002]

Originally Posted by Zassk

The QE curve will seem ok once the 33rd Ave station is built in the middle of it. I am bugged more by some of the other slowdowns on the line, even though they are less severe, they just seem unnecessary.

Maybe. Even then... that particular area (33rd Ave + Cambie) has one of the sharpest turns in the whole Canada Line. You can hear the train going very slow and it's still making huge grinding sounds.

[Metro-One]

Rotem Canada Line (167 passengers per car)
- 3-car train: 501-passengers (requires platform extension)
- 2-car train: 334-passengers
(do not use crush load car capacity of 200 passengers, it is not realistic)

According to those numbers, with the 3 car design the capacity of the line, running every 90 seconds from Bridgeport to Waterfront, is 20,040 phpd, which is doable for that means 3 minute headways along the two spurs.

So essentially the C-line can operate at the current E/M line capacities, which is pretty good considering the E/M lines will need greater capacities considering they are the main lines in the system.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

According to those numbers, with the 3 car design the capacity of the line, running every 90 seconds from Bridgeport to Waterfront, is 20,040 phpd, which is doable for that means 3 minute headways along the two spurs.

So essentially the C-line can operate at the current E/M line capacities, which is pretty good considering the E/M lines will need greater capacities considering they are the main lines in the system.

Never trust mr. x's numbers when it comes to criticizing the Canada Line.

Expo still needs the greatest capacity. Based on the experiences of the C line forking, I don't think that would be the best idea for a future E/M line fork into PoCo. Certain locations would see poor service which would hardly be an upgrade on a bus, if at all.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by allan_kuan

Maybe. Even then... that particular area (33rd Ave + Cambie) has one of the sharpest turns in the whole Canada Line. You can hear the train going very slow and it's still making huge grinding sounds.

Still nothing compared to the ear-drum piercing screech of the TTC Spadina line subway southbound from St. George to Museum.

[BCPhil]

I think if you compare the cost of "Gold plated" M-Line stations with the cookie cutter stations on the Expo line, I would bet that adjusted for inflation, the cost of a station like Production Way is only a million or 2 more than the cost of Royal Oak. They all have near the same amount of concrete and steel, some just have more wood, or glass, or tiles than others.

I think it comes down to perception, and what kind of perception the in power government wants to create. Do they want to create a perception that they spared no expense bring this creation to life, or do they want a perception that they are utilitarian and saving our hard earned money for better things.

Both cost the same, but which will get you more votes in the next election? The perception of opulence or thrift? I think that was a guiding principle behind the Canada line, I think they tried to walk a tight rope between the two.

If they built the stations with grandiose designs then people would be out protesting Gordo for burning our money and blaming the Olympics for making us want to show off.

On the other hand, you make it look like you tighten the purse stings too much and you get the same people out protesting the fact Gordo is a cheapskate and is funneling money into the Olympics instead of infrastructure projects.

It comes down to which kind of protests do you want your opposition to organize.



Also, if Expo Line is extended South towards Newton, many South Surrey and White Rock Commuters would probably be re-routed to it, taking some strain off the Canada Line.