Millennium Line - Evergreen Extension | Completed

[Lover Fighter]

I have a quick question regarding the proposed Evergreen Route. I understand where the line will exit the tunnel in Port Moody, but where exactly will it enter in Coquitlam (near Burquitlam Plaza)?

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by cabotp

In the long term LRT would never be able to handle the ridership numbers that we will see in the future along this line. If we had built the entire thing as LRT. I can guarantee in 15-20 years people would be screaming about how over congested it is.

It is always cheaper to spend the capital cost up front. Than it is to try and rebuild later on when the cost of materials and labour is always going to be higher.

Also LRT does not have the potential of beat ALRT in terms of PPHPD. Which is why ALRT is better for the future.

Also with LRT you would have to pay someone a wage to drive the train. If need to suddenly had trains to the line, because of an increase in demand. They can't with LRT because the driver is at home. But with ALRT just send the train out and be done with it.

...or it's possible LRT won't even achieve the ridership that SkyTrain would, given its inferior speed and frequencies...and the high capacity seen on SkyTrain would never be needed.

Why can't Trasolini just stfu?

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by mr.x

.
Why can't Trasolini just stfu?

Yeah. Anyone with anyforesight can tell that area - the Northeast Quadrant -is going to get BIG over time. It's already sprouting highrise towers, has a major shopping mall (the nucleus of a town centre) and will see burgeoning growth in the future. On top of that, there's a WCE station linked in with one or more Evergreen Line Stations. Spend the money up front, do it right, rather than going half-way and being nickelled and dimed to death with future damage control.

[CLC]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Vancouver NEVER should have built the MLine as SkyTrain nor should have been Canada Line. The both should have been LRT with tunnelled sections where needed. LRT could easily have handled the load and would have saved a money and would have been easier to extend where tunneling is not required {ie MLine Alma to UBC} and yet provide reliable rapid transit. Unfortunatly this is all academic and we are stuck with what we have.
SkyTrain is expensive tech but Evergreen must now be SkyTrain so it can interline with the Columbia to Lougheed MLine to double capacity down the MLine down Broadway to Alma.

My experience with LRT is that it is NEVER a "reliable rapid" transit in non-grade-separated urban area. I don't even want to mention about crash accident aspect that certainly will happen almost everyday in Vancouver street traffic.
Though I agree that light rail technology certainly can theoretically handle the same load as our medium capacity light metro (Skytrain/Canada Line). Calgary C-train itself seems pretty successful but it is still far from the most used light rail system per km in the world, e.g Hong kong light rail track is 12 km shorter than Calgary but has least 370000 riders per day last year

[GeeCee]

It was posted a few pages back, but don't forget that the Preliminary Design Public Consultation begins on Monday (Oct 5). http://evergreenline.gov.bc.ca/public_consultation.htm

We should make our voices heard. In particular, it's important that someone attend the meeting at Old Orchard Hall if possible. I know there's definitely some short-sighted feelings against the line along some of the nearby residents. I'd attend that one but I'm not able to due to having school that night.

Wednesday,
October 21 Port Moody 6 p.m. – 9 p.m. Old Orchard Hall
(646 Bentley Road, Port Moody)

[BCPhil]

I think saving the $400 million to go with LRT through the NW corridor is too much of a sacrifice for the savings. You are saving $400 million which could result in almost double the travel times, and likely less than half the ridership. As well, LRT has higher operating costs per passenger.

If we didn't have to dig a tunnel or deal with the heavy traffic at Lougheed/North, Clarke/Como Lake, Barnet/St Johns, Lougheed/Barnet/Pinetree LRT might actually work. But Traffic at those intersections has a hard enough time flowing on the best of days and will slow down LRT.

Even going with LRT will result in a lot natural grade separation along the route through Port Moody and along the CPR (unfortunately it only avoids one problem intersection, at Ioco). With that much natural grade separation, plus the need for a tunnel, plus the need for elevated sections near Lougheed (and probably Pinetree), LRT as it would be built is so close to just being Skytrain anyway. I think the savings are being over exaggerated and would be no where near $400 million cheaper.

If we went with LRT, it would either be painfully slow and mostly unused (like the 97B line) OR it would be crazy overbuilt and expensive for LRT, Like Link in Seattle, and be as close as you can get to automated ALRT without being it.

And even with a tunnel under Clarke, the grade will be pretty steep. I think the LIM motors of Skytrain will handle it much better than anything else available (it's one of the reasons we went with LIM motors in this mountainous city).

[mr.x]

^ the thing is the savings won't be even $400-million, but rather $150-million....lies, lies, and more lies from Trasolini.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by mr.x

^ the thing is the savings won't be even $400-million, but rather $150-million....lies, lies, and more lies from Trasolini.

Agreed. I totally think saving $400 million is a pipe dream for LRT. If they actually managed to build a system in that area for that price, it would be near impossible to use. We would just end up with a billion dollar light rail system that's slow and drives residents crazy with loud signal bells.

C-Train is great in Calgary, but we would end up with an over priced Seattle Link LRT for the evergreen line with tunnels and elevated portions.

[The_Henry_Man]

Originally Posted by mr.x

^ the thing is the savings won't be even $400-million, but rather $150-million....lies, lies, and more lies from Trasolini.

Trasolini, YOU LIE!!!

[WarrenC12]

Somewhat off topic, but I was in Istanbul last week and saw some street level LRT systems up close and personal. In that city, they worked great, but I could see numerous problems in Vancouver. We simply don't have the culture for it, especially along Broadway.

Cars shared the road with it, but everybody got the F out of the way when the metro was running. It did have some dedicated lane space as well, but only when cars had 2+ lanes for themselves. I foresee nothing but delays and accidents if something similar was slapped in the middle of broadway.

[usog]

Originally Posted by The_Henry_Man

Trasolini, YOU LIE!!!

Anyways, I think the biggest thing is that that guy is pretty damn short-sighted. The capacity on an LRT would be much less than even the partial abortion that was the Canada Line, and the travel times would be longer. What he's pretty much doing is deferring an eventually much larger cost of expansion when it gets to that due to the small capacity upon future generations, in order to look good as the Mayor that brought rapid transit to the tri-cities.

[mr.x]

^ but then, these LRT advocates come up with examples such as the Hong Kong Island streetcar which has a ridership of something like 270,000/passengers per day over a ~12-km route i believe.....which is apples and oranges.

[NucksFanInVan]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

Even going with LRT will result in a lot natural grade separation along the route through Port Moody and along the CPR (unfortunately it only avoids one problem intersection, at Ioco). With that much natural grade separation, plus the need for a tunnel, plus the need for elevated sections near Lougheed (and probably Pinetree), LRT as it would be built is so close to just being Skytrain anyway. I think the savings are being over exaggerated and would be no where near $400 million cheaper.

Not sure I agree with your logic here. To play devil's advocate for a mo:
If Evergreen were almost as grade-separated as our other Skytrain why wouldn't this grade separation (plus a good timing and traffic integration plan) let us reach a significant fraction of grade-separated capacity?

I think they should suck it up and build the thing right the first time. Failing that, IF (and this is a big if) they can build so it is easily expandable to fully-integrated Skytrain operation 20 years down the road I don't see why we couldn't save a bit of money and build an interim system now.

Of course, I really don't think the savings in building it as an interim system would be very significant, for all the reasons you guys have already pointed out. And, it makes no sense at all to have 11 km of otherwise grade-separated system with two or three at-grade crossings.

But back to the main question: if we could save say $200M - $400M and build something that could be easily expanded to integrated skytrain operation once ridership justified the additional cost, would you support?

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by NucksFanInVan

Not sure I agree with your logic here. To play devil's advocate for a mo:
If Evergreen were almost as grade-separated as our other Skytrain why wouldn't this grade separation (plus a good timing and traffic integration plan) let us reach a significant fraction of grade-separated capacity?

You would still be dealing with trains that have drivers. There are certain safety concerns that prevent you from having a system where fast trains operate with high frequency. If LRT is going to be grade separated and fast, it won't be frequent like Skytrain is (one of the reasons Skytrain is popular here) and thus can't match the capacity.

But in case my point wasn't coming across, I support Skytrain on the Evergreen line wholeheartedly. I was just saying that by shoehorning in LRT into the NW corridor, you aren't actually building that much less infrastructure than Skytrain requires. So what I was saying is that the savings won't be $400 million.

My reasoning is that at grade Skytrain construction down the CPR corridor isn't that much more expensive than at grade LRT in the same area.

Throw in the cost of the tunnel and the cost of elevated sections near both ends and reconfiguring other major intersections for signal priority, and you are soooooooooo close to just having Skytrain. My statement is if you are that close, why not go all the way? In the end, LRT might save $150 million, why not spend that to have a fully automated, integrated, fast, high capacity system that in the long term is cheaper to run per passenger (by a lot).

Evergreen Line LRT would just be as close as you could get to actual Skytrain, just with LRT slapped on the name for the same cost with none of the benefits.

[CLC]

Originally Posted by mr.x

^ but then, these LRT advocates come up with examples such as the Hong Kong Island streetcar which has a ridership of something like 270,000/passengers per day over a ~12-km route i believe.....which is apples and oranges.

Hong Kong Island "streetcar" is the opposite of what one expects from rapid transit, though it normally operates like 20km/h it is successful because of extreme frequency and ultra-low fare.

[Metro-One]

I cant even read these threads anymore, they are becoming far to depressing.

Bottom Line


DO IT ONCE! DO IT RIGHT!

[deasine]

They can BS all the want, but it's going to be built as SkyTrain.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by CLC

Hong Kong Island "streetcar" is the opposite of what one expects from rapid transit, though it normally operates like 20km/h it is successful because of extreme frequency and ultra-low fare.

lol, well you ask them - they do love a slow commute so that they can gaze at storefronts.

[metroXpress]

Originally Posted by deasine

They can BS all the want, but it's going to be built as SkyTrain.

Gald that you posted this at the bottom of the page...really lighten up my day.

I personally think that we should have a thread for LRT news regarding the Evergreen Line and keep this one SKYTRAIN ONLY!!

Then, we wouldn't have to suffer from those articles

[metroXpress]

Originally Posted by mr.x

lol, well you ask them - they do love a slow commute so that they can gaze at storefronts.

window shopping eh?

BOSS: "Why are you late today?"
WORKER: "Well, our RAPID TRASIT STREETCAR LINE was unexpectedly slow today...did some window shopping while I was on it. It was moving like 20km/h"
BOSS: "I bet the bus is faster than that!"
WORKER: "They cancelled all the bus service on the streetcar route. They want us to use the new line, sir"
BOSS: " "