Millennium Line - Evergreen Extension | Completed

[Gordon]

I don't think that Translink has even decided what the service model will be for the Evergreen Line. As far as any Surrey Extension that could easily be Light Rail seeing that Daine Watts has said in the past that's what Surrey prefers adn sh is the head of the Mayor's Council.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Gordon

I don't think that Translink has even decided what the service model will be for the Evergreen Line. As far as any Surrey Extension that could easily be Light Rail seeing that Daine Watts has said in the past that's what Surrey prefers adn sh is the head of the Mayor's Council.

I thought the plan was still Skytrain to Guilford Mall (which was the only thing I was suggesting above). LRT down to South Surrey/White Rock would be ideal.

I didn't like Watts to start, but she seems to be the most capable/reasonable politician in the province these days. Now.. don't screw it up.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

The WCE I believe recovers 95% of its cost, which is pretty good! Also Translink has already ordered the new cars (one more for each train I believe) but Translink is now threatening to sell these cars when they arrive if they are not given the funding they are asking for.

Sell to who? Hopefully this is just fearmongering to put pressure on the province for funding.

Originally Posted by Metro-One

As for WarrenC12, I would never put the Expo line extension before the Evergreen Line. The Northeast sector is far better prepared for mass transit than the area the Expo line extension would serve. (Port Moody and Coquitlam are much more centralized than Surrey or Langley and have more developed cores).

Again, the North East sector has been begging for this line for decades now while the Broadway Corridor will have nothing but resistance towards a skytrain extension.

Justify based on current stats... that's all I'm saying. You're giving me the "build it and they will come" argument. How about the people that are already taking slow/inefficient forms of transit (buses in busy urban areas). Give them the express grade separated rapid transit. Of course I'm glossing over the fact that getting something built in the west side of Vancouver is no easy thing, but Translink has a duty to be fiscally responsible doesn't it? You could replace the less than 100% fare recovery 99 B Line with a 100% or more UBC M-Line extension. Can you say the same of the Evergreen?

Originally Posted by Metro-One

And as for the proposed E-line stations at the WCE stations, these are meant to act as hubs, for they are not only WCE stations but also local bus hubs, especially the one in Coquitlam, which services buses to Poco, Pitt Meadows and Maple Ridge. Also, this would allow people taking the WCE from Mission and Maple Ridge to access areas such as Metrotown, New West and Lougheed Town Centre just by transferring from the WCE to skytrain.

The problem is that the WCE is a commuter line for people who live in the valley and work downtown, nothing more. I say nothing more because they are limited with their contract with CN, which is not likely to change soon. It's a great service, but its purely commuter rail. I have a hard time believing there will be a lot of Metrotown type trips.

On a slightly related note, I see constant studies that seem to indicate that there are more intra-regional trips around Metro Vancouver, yet the first major project to address that need (Golden Ears Bridge), is so far a disappointment in usage. However, I also heard some people calling in to CKNW making clearly illogical arguments as to why they still take the PMB. You can lead a horse to water...

[TransitJack]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Sell to who? Hopefully this is just fearmongering to put pressure on the province for funding.



Justify based on current stats... that's all I'm saying. You're giving me the "build it and they will come" argument. How about the people that are already taking slow/inefficient forms of transit (buses in busy urban areas). Give them the express grade separated rapid transit. Of course I'm glossing over the fact that getting something built in the west side of Vancouver is no easy thing, but Translink has a duty to be fiscally responsible doesn't it? You could replace the less than 100% fare recovery 99 B Line with a 100% or more UBC M-Line extension. Can you say the same of the Evergreen?




The problem is that the WCE is a commuter line for people who live in the valley and work downtown, nothing more. I say nothing more because they are limited with their contract with CN, which is not likely to change soon. It's a great service, but its purely commuter rail. I have a hard time believing there will be a lot of Metrotown type trips.

On a slightly related note, I see constant studies that seem to indicate that there are more intra-regional trips around Metro Vancouver, yet the first major project to address that need (Golden Ears Bridge), is so far a disappointment in usage. However, I also heard some people calling in to CKNW making clearly illogical arguments as to why they still take the PMB. You can lead a horse to water...

The same cars for WCE are used all over, including Toronto's GO system.

The WCE is operated on CP tracks by CP crews, NOT CN.

[Metro-One]

Where do people keep getting this idea that the GEB is disappointing in usage? Last I heard it is essentially right on track of predictions, and this was during the slow season of summer!

Also, i noticed WarrenC12 failed to counter my points of the WCE stations acting as major bus hubs as well, so i guess he agrees with me there.

Also, it is a fact that the B line to Coquitlam is horrible and does little to get people out of their cars.

Again, those who are asking for it get it first over those who will fight it (Broadway Corridor)

And again, after all this Cambie Mess, do we really want to go underground along a major corridor again with memories still fresh!

The Evergreen Line gives the perfect amount of time to let memories fade.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Where do people keep getting this idea that the GEB is disappointing in usage? Last I heard it is essentially right on track of predictions, and this was during the slow season of summer!

Somebody from Translink was on CKNW a few days ago saying that usage was lower than predicted. Something like 25,000 crossings per day I think. Not totally out of line, but definitely a slow start. Certainly the opposite start compared to the C-Line. I think the estimates are typically lowballed so they can see success more easily.

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Also, i noticed WarrenC12 failed to counter my points of the WCE stations acting as major bus hubs as well, so i guess he agrees with me there.

Skytrain stations naturally become bus hubs no matter where they are, I don't get your point. Isn't it a bus hub for the WCE now?

Again you are on the "build it and they will use it" track. Which is fine, but it's still a —. See: the first 5 years of the M-Line. If I was betting, I' put money on the sure thing.

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Also, it is a fact that the B line to Coquitlam is horrible and does little to get people out of their cars.

That's neither here nor there. What is bad about it compared to any other B-Line or bus route in Metro Van? It shows me people in the NE sector are not willing to make sacrifices to ride transit. Frequency is good right? What else can you ask for with a bus?

I'm not against Evergreen per se, just playing devil's advocate in a world where Translink has extremely limited funds for transit expansion.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

The problem is that the WCE is a commuter line for people who live in the valley and work downtown, nothing more. I say nothing more because they are limited with their contract with CN, which is not likely to change soon. It's a great service, but its purely commuter rail. I have a hard time believing there will be a lot of Metrotown type trips.

I think what he meant was that people could commute much easier to Metrotown, for work, not just shopping. The Metrotown area has quite a few offices (and Metrotower III was still going up last time I looked at the hole). With WCE + Evergreen Line, people in Maple Ridge or Mission could commute rather quickly by using WCE into Port Moody, then taking Skytrain to business centers around Metrotown and Brentwood, and students could live at home and attend class at SFU or BCIT much more easily. It would also cut down on commute times if you miss your WCE train (sleep in, stay at work late), as you can Skytrain all the way out to Coquitlam Center, and take buses from there to the burbs (it would probably cut significant time off the Train Bus if you were only going as far as Pitt Meadows or Maple Ridge).

And the 97B line is pretty horrible. It's rather slow, it's busy during peak hours, but infrequent the rest of the day, and makes a lot of stops. It's hardly worthy of the term B line. The Evergreen line would give people out there a much faster alternative to driving. Driving from Coquitlam isn't that bad because you don't have to contend with any bridges, so most people still drive. If it was a bit faster a lot of people would switch as the REAL problem with driving from Coquitlam is parking downtown.

[Metro-One]

That's neither here nor there. What is bad about it compared to any other B-Line or bus route in Metro Van? It shows me people in the NE sector are not willing to make sacrifices to ride transit. Frequency is good right? What else can you ask for with a bus?

The problem with it is it is insanely indirect, it zig zags all over the place and it takes about 40 minutes or more on a journey that only takes about 15 minutes (sometimes less) by car. To me, that is not a B-line.

Skytrain stations naturally become bus hubs no matter where they are, I don't get your point. Isn't it a bus hub for the WCE now?

I was referring to one of your earlier posts today where you stated you think it is useless to have skytrain stations at WCE stations, I was just pointing out the those WCE stations were also bus hubs, very important ones, so the station locations make sense.

Again you are on the "build it and they will use it" track. Which is fine, but it's still a —. See: the first 5 years of the M-Line. If I was betting, I' put money on the sure thing.

the reason why the M-line failed to meet its projected riderships is because those projections were made with its 2 missing parts in mind (the Evergreen Line and the extension to UBC) and in reality the current ridership levels of the M-Line are an amazing success given that those two missing parts are, well, still missing!


I fully support the extension to UBC (anyone here knows that!) but i just feel it is much wiser to continue with this branch first, given the facts that it is welcomed by the communities, is much further along in funding and design, and will allow memories to fade along Cambie so we are not met with such hostility along the Broadway Corridor.

Again, to me, it is a political no brainer.

[DKaz]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

The problem is that the WCE is a commuter line for people who live in the valley and work downtown, nothing more. I say nothing more because they are limited with their contract with CN, which is not likely to change soon. It's a great service, but its purely commuter rail. I have a hard time believing there will be a lot of Metrotown type trips.

I know quite a number of people who live in Mission/Abby/Maple Ridge/Pitt Meadows who work in Burnaby/New West. Taking the WCE to Port Moody and then transferring to Skytrain to their destinations would be hands down the fastest way to get to work. I could also imagine them doing two way all-day WCE TrainBus service from Coquitlam to Mission when the trains aren't running.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

the reason why the M-line failed to meet its projected riderships is because those projections were made with its 2 missing parts in mind (the Evergreen Line and the extension to UBC) and in reality the current ridership levels of the M-Line are an amazing success given that those two missing parts are, well, still missing!


I fully support the extension to UBC (anyone here knows that!) but i just feel it is much wiser to continue with this branch first, given the facts that it is welcomed by the communities, is much further along in funding and design, and will allow memories to fade along Cambie so we are not met with such hostility along the Broadway Corridor.

Again, to me, it is a political no brainer.

I agree. I would like to see the UBC extension built more than anything else, and I don't go to UBC (never have) and don't live near there. I just think it will help the whole region grow as there is a lot of medium density land along Broadway that is ready for redevelopment. If you want to beat urban sprawl then you have to offer attractive homes near where people want to live, not sort of half way.

But I think a key piece to moving the UBC extension forward is to get the Evergreen line done. The Evergreen line has the most people behind it, very few opposers (almost no opposers who can actually do anything to stop it) and the most ground work done. And skipping the Evergreen line would cast too much suspicion on Translink, the Mayors, and the Province. As much as the UBC Extension would be more of a success, it is also more of a political hot potato. But I would fast pace UBC Extension behind Evergreen line. As soon as Evergreen tunnelling is done, start work on Broadway. It will be cheaper to keep those people working constantly than having to renegotiate contracts and hire new contractors. Long term, stable work always costs less per hour than short term contract work.

The tracks on the Evergreen Line are also needed for the UBC extension because the extension is going to need more trains than currently operate on the Millennium line, and those trains wouldn't be able to join the Expo line (already a lot of trains there) and might cause problems turning them around at Lougheed. You sort of need the Evergreen line as room to send trains so they have a place to turn around. Logistically speaking, you sort of need Evergreen to make the UBC Extension work well.

But I do think they should tack on extending the Millennium line to Broadway City Hall as part of the Evergreen Project as bringing people that far on a single ride from Coquitlam would be a huge ridership draw, not only for Evergreen, but the whole system.

[mrjauk]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

But I do think they should tack on extending the Millennium line to Broadway City Hall as part of the Evergreen Project as bringing people that far on a single ride from Coquitlam would be a huge ridership draw, not only for Evergreen, but the whole system.

The reason why the M-line failed to meet its projected riderships is because those projections were made with its 2 missing parts in mind (the Evergreen Line and the extension to UBC) and in reality the current ridership levels of the M-Line are an amazing success given that those two missing parts are, well, still missing!

I agree with both of these statements. The second is by Metro-one, I believe. Once the Millennium Line is completely built out, it will increase the ridership dramatically. I do hope, however, that concurrent with the building of the Evergreen Line, that the M-Line is extended from VCC/Clark to Broadway City Hall.

As for platform lengths, you will need 80m platforms at least for the whole M-Line, particularly when it's built out to UBC. Man, I can't wait for that day!

[paradigm4]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I thought the plan was still Skytrain to Guilford Mall (which was the only thing I was suggesting above). LRT down to South Surrey/White Rock would be ideal.

I didn't like Watts to start, but she seems to be the most capable/reasonable politician in the province these days. Now.. don't screw it up.

That was the plan by Falcon, who is now long gone. The majority of residents, as evidenced by Watts, support the cheaper alternative of LRT. We would get a much larger rail network for the same cost, and light rail would actually work pretty well with our suburban street grid (massive street blocks, as opposed to lights every 80m or so in Vancouver).

As for the Expo extension to Guildford over the Evergreen Line, that would just be a ridiculous waste of money. Adding two or three stations to Expo for almost one billion dollars?! There's very few riders it would capture from such an extension that aren't already feeding onto SkyTrain anyways. Besides, the City is not prepared for increased density in Guildford - the focus is now on building the City Centre where SkyTrain already goes.

A comprehensive rapid bus network around the South Fraser region, connecting our communities rather than feeding to Vancouver would be the most popular service TransLink could introduce out here. I also suspect a rapid bus connecting Guildford with Coquitlam City Centre across a new Port Mann would attract a big ridership (course that's not in the plans).

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Where do people keep getting this idea that the GEB is disappointing in usage? Last I heard it is essentially right on track of predictions, and this was during the slow season of summer!

Also, it is a fact that the B line to Coquitlam is horrible and does little to get people out of their cars.

I heard the GEB is slightly over predictions.

The B-Line in Coquitlam is an infrequent milk run that only travels that particular corridor because that was determined to be the future Evergreen corridor. It was meant to build demand, but obviously hasn't really worked. If the B-Line was more like the others - higher frequencies, few stops, express type service - it would be more popular.

Originally Posted by BCPhil

But I do think they should tack on extending the Millennium line to Broadway City Hall as part of the Evergreen Project as bringing people that far on a single ride from Coquitlam would be a huge ridership draw, not only for Evergreen, but the whole system.

Originally Posted by mrjauk

I do hope, however, that concurrent with the building of the Evergreen Line, that the M-Line is extended from VCC/Clark to Broadway City Hall.

Interesting that you are both calling for the same thing - an MLine extension to City Hall as part of the Evergreen project. Considering there's already funding issues, how plausible do you think it is that 1/3 of the UBC Line could be built in conjunction with the tunneling for Evergreen?

[mooks28]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I'm not against Evergreen per se, just playing devil's advocate in a world where Translink has extremely limited funds for transit expansion.

Don't forget the politics. Coquitlam has been screaming for a Skytrain extension that way since the mid-1980s. Add to that the reaction of people out in the burbs who want Skytrain passed over in favour of NIMBY west-side Vancouverites and you have a recipe for the utter explosion of Translink.

You're already seeing people south of the Fraser getting agitated about the lack of service, this would be the straw.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by mooks28

Don't forget the politics. Coquitlam has been screaming for a Skytrain extension that way since the mid-1980s. Add to that the reaction of people out in the burbs who want Skytrain passed over in favour of NIMBY west-side Vancouverites and you have a recipe for the utter explosion of Translink.

You're already seeing people south of the Fraser getting agitated about the lack of service, this would be the straw.

Oh I agree. My whole point is that the Evergreen line is being built (first) for political reasons, rather than to address ridership issues. These people were promised this line twice, so I sympathize...

[officedweller]

And Coquitlam has been densifying in reliance on the line being built -
i.e. growth shaping...

[cabotp]

It would be great if both could be built at the same time. As both lines are needed today and not tomorrow. But sadly that is not the case. And so because the Evergreen Line is further along and basically shovel ready other than looking for the funds. Compared to having to do studies on the UBC extension. I say build the Evergreen line first. And then build the UBC line as soon as possible. Oh and who cares what a bunch of Nimbies in Point grey think. Just build the line.

[Kwik-E-Mart]

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but an idea to solve the problem between shorter platforms along the Evergreen is to have longer trains doing short turns at Lougheed Town Centre or Columbia (should it get its extra platform) and have the shorter trains continuing onto Coquitlam Centre, just like the current proposal of terminating some trains along the Expo Line at Metrotown to address overcrowding issues.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by Kwik-E-Mart

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but an idea to solve the problem between shorter platforms along the Evergreen is to have longer trains doing short turns at Lougheed Town Centre or Columbia (should it get its extra platform) and have the shorter trains continuing onto Coquitlam Centre, just like the current proposal of terminating some trains along the Expo Line at Metrotown to address overcrowding issues.

As mentioned above, the minimum length of the platform must fit at least a four-car MK I as TransLink is expected to have the MK Is run on the Millennium Line. MK IIs would be used primarily on the Expo Line (four car ones).

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by deasine

As mentioned above, the minimum length of the platform must fit at least a four-car MK I as TransLink is expected to have the MK Is run on the Millennium Line. MK IIs would be used primarily on the Expo Line (four car ones).

Which is about 50m. I'm guessing that door to door, the MKIs are about 45-46m.

Originally Posted by paradigm4

The B-Line in Coquitlam is an infrequent milk run that only travels that particular corridor because that was determined to be the future Evergreen corridor. It was meant to build demand, but obviously hasn't really worked. If the B-Line was more like the others - higher frequencies, few stops, express type service - it would be more popular.

True. Plug in Coquitlam to Lougheed Mall in Translink's Trip Planner, and three or four different routes come up. 97 B-Line is 3rd on the list.

One Option (169 to Braid) has a transfer at Braid and is still within a minute or two of the 97.

If they wanted a "TRUE" Express Route, they'd run the 97 B-Line Down Lougheed Hwy, South on United Blvd to the #1 On-Ramp, and get off at Brunette ( until the North Road Transit-only ramp is built as part of Gateway ). The 169 currently takes 23 minutes to get to Braid Station. There are 7 stops. There are 18 stops on the 97 B-Line ( 33 minutes ).

Going to Metrotown:

• 169, M-Line will save you at least 12 minutes.
• One option with TWO transfers that is quicker than the 97: 169 to Maillardville, Wait 6 minutes for 157 and take it to Lougheed Mall, Then M-Line to Metrotown. Still 1 minute faster than 97 to Lougheed, then M-Line Metrotown.

The 169 should be branded as B-Line. But then that might build support for a southern Route, which of course doesn't make sense. The only reason the south route is faster for buses is that there is less density and more highway. For this exact reason it doesn't need rail with its own ROW ( less congestion, fewer lights for road vehicles, less people )

I would hope that once the PMC Line's northern routing is set in stone, that there be a Southern Line branded as a B-Line.

EDIT
Plugging in Coquitlam Station to Production Way Station doesn't even show the 97 B-Line. I'm convinced that the 97 B-Line exists ONLY to build ridership in the Guildford Way Area and Port Moody ( which is closer to Lougheed ). Ironically, the PMC line isn't currently planned to go down Guildford Way, but rather it is planned to travel along the Barnet Hwy to avoid NIMBIES, among other reasons.

[Gordon]

Can the Millemium Line platforms handle 6 car mark1 trains?