Salt Lake:Official development news thread - Part 2

[Justnslcsugarhood.]

Originally Posted by WeST

While I have heard people say that Utah sometimes struggles to land major corporations because of its policy on gay marriage and other social issues, I doubt this is a large consideration. Taxes, general business climate, workforce, energy prices, transportation and incentives are far bigger a consideration. Further when you say "diverse crowd" are you referring to anyone other than the GLBT community? Other than the corporations in the bay area and NYC I don't think most others are overly worried about what communities have so called "gay rights" laws. By the size of the gay community here things must not be too terrible for them.

I think by diverse he is referring to far more then just the LGBT community. Also just because there are people from the LGBT community here don't assume it's "easy" for them. I think SLC may have a large LGBT community because it's the only place in the state where they can go to and feel safe. Also, I read there is a large amount of immigration of people from the LGBT community from Wyoming and parts of Idaho to SLC because it's more accepting.
People need to stop saying " if you don't like it.... leave." that statement is only for those who have no intellectual way to back there actions or thought process.
and that last statement is not in anyway geared towards you West. It's geared mostly at people who comment on Deseret news and the Trib, lol. Also, people here love the outdoors they love the scenery there are many more reasons to live in Utah then most people would think. I don't want to have to leave my home because I feel to uncomfortable to live here, that would be awful.

Also, I think there is a stigma against SLC because everyone thinks of us as "the land of Zion!!!". Just for an example in the film Contact, the crazy religious guy who blows up the space ship is a member of a christian terroris group that's housed in Utah. RIDICULOUS!!!

As for education I heard enrollment for SLCC has gone up something like twenty four percent!!! I heard the U is expecting a large increase in enrollment as well. When the economy rebounds, when we have CCC built, when we have the TWO west bound railroads built, the front runner to Provo built and the large amount of people enrolling in college now graduated we will start to attract large amounts of business. In the short run, as in the next two to three years, I think people will look at our low unemployment rate and the fact Downtown SLC does have a SLIGHTLY more diverse population then the rest of the state and be attracted to us.

[Justnslcsugarhood.]

http://www.sltrib.com/valleywest/ci_12949081
We are No. 4 in the nation this year for associate degrees produced,"

[WeST]

Originally Posted by Justnslcsugarhood.

I think by diverse he is referring to far more then just the LGBT community. Also just because there are people from the LGBT community here don't assume it's "easy" for them. I think SLC may have a large LGBT community because it's the only place in the state where they can go to and feel safe. Also, I read there is a large amount of immigration of people from the LGBT community from Wyoming and parts of Idaho to SLC because it's more accepting.
People need to stop saying " if you don't like it.... leave." that statement is only for those who have no intellectual way to back there actions or thought process.
and that last statement is not in anyway geared towards you West. It's geared mostly at people who comment on Deseret news and the Trib, lol. Also, people here love the outdoors they love the scenery there are many more reasons to live in Utah then most people would think. I don't want to have to leave my home because I feel to uncomfortable to live here, that would be awful.

Also, I think there is a stigma against SLC because everyone thinks of us as "the land of Zion!!!". Just for an example in the film Contact, the crazy religious guy who blows up the space ship is a member of a christian terroris group that's housed in Utah. RIDICULOUS!!!

As for education I heard enrollment for SLCC has gone up something like twenty four percent!!! I heard the U is expecting a large increase in enrollment as well. When the economy rebounds, when we have CCC built, when we have the TWO west bound railroads built, the front runner to Provo built and the large amount of people enrolling in college now graduated we will start to attract large amounts of business. In the short run, as in the next two to three years, I think people will look at our low unemployment rate and the fact Downtown SLC does have a SLIGHTLY more diverse population then the rest of the state and be attracted to us.

I appreciate your comments. I think you often have well reasoned points. What I am still wondering is what he thinks the state is doing (laws and otherwise) that would discourage this diversity he talks about. I understand that people on this forum and others believe that laws or lack of them are not welcoming to the GLBT community, but what other diverse groups are being ostracized or left out by laws or other actions? I know individuals are always going to make choices that are less than positive, but I don't see where (outside of GLBT) Utah can be criticized for not being welcoming to diverse groups.

[Justnslcsugarhood.]

Originally Posted by WeST

I appreciate your comments. I think you often have well reasoned points. What I am still wondering is what he thinks the state is doing (laws and otherwise) that would discourage this diversity he talks about. I understand that people on this forum and others believe that laws or lack of them are not welcoming to the GLBT community, but what other diverse groups are being ostracized or left out by laws or other actions? I know individuals are always going to make choices that are less than positive, but I don't see where (outside of GLBT) Utah can be criticized for not being welcoming to diverse groups.

A lot of People, my self included, view HB 81 and HB 242 to be very antagonistic to the Latina/o community. In HB 81 if you have any suspicion that some one is an undocumented immigrant you have to have them verify there immigration status, If you are a doctor and you help an undocumented patient, be you unaware of it, then you just committed a felony, if you are a police officer and have a suspicion that some one is undocumented then you have to have them verify status. The issue that some have is that this will cause a lot of racial profiling due to the fact people may begin to assume if you are Latina you are undocumented. This is further exasperated by the fact people think only "Mexicans" are undocumented and the fact that helping an undocumented immigrant is a felony. The fact last fact may cause people to become very reactionary when they should be acting in a professional manner.
People shouldn't have to carry around a birth certificate to prove they were born here and are a third generation "immigrant'' when ever they go to the doctors or get pulled over for a traffic violation.

Also, Chris Buttars comments on Brown vs. Board of Education, the black baby comment and the "gay" comments he made make our state look a little bit like Alabama circa 1828 especially since after he made the first two comments he was put back on the same committees he was taken off of a year later.

Hickums, or however you spell his name, started crying during a speech in which he said that undocumented immigration is the plot of the devil to bring down the US which makes us look a little bit insane.

Also, all the bills that Wadoups try's to pass are a little ridiculous as well.
The people of this state are wonderful. The legislature...... maybe not.

PS Urbanboy, I am not trying to speak for you. I do realize it may sound like that from my voice in my writing lol.

[Comrade]

Right. It's not just one single thing the state is doing, but a collection of anti-diversity actions that embed in the minds of those from outside Utah.

Rightfully or not, there is a stigma attached here that we are very much backwards when it comes to race, religion (outside of Mormonism), gender and sexual orientation.

I think there has been dramatic change in just the last ten years, but it's still a cloud hanging over Utah and subsequently Salt Lake City.

These stories do get out, especially with the internet being one of the major sources of information in America today. People read it. They formulate an opinion, even if it isn't justified.

It does hurt our status.

But then again, some (even on this board) may not have any problem with that.

Surely there are a number of individuals who think we should round up every non-citizen here legally and deport them back to their home country. They probably also believe gays do not deserve equal protection under the law, or the right to marry. Hell, you might find misogynist and sexists on this board who do not believe women should be out in the workforce - or find a true hatred for empowered women.

I definitely believe they exist at the government level and I wouldn't be surprised if it's here, too.

So I guess I can see why some on this board might not find these to be troubling issues. I don't agree with them, obviously, but it does make sense.

If you believe gays are an abomination, you probably won't have a problem with Chris Buttars.

If you feel immigrants, namely Mexican immigrants, are at the device of Satan, then you probably won't have issue with Don Larsen.

That's just how it is. I don't. You might. But that perception is there and it certainly does hinder the state in terms of certain economic investments.

Most businesses today want to be inclusive. Most major corporations today have thrown their support behind many diverse causes. If they feel Salt Lake is not an inclusive community, they won't relocate here.

Because it's all business. If they can't get people to relocate here, why would they?

[WeST]

Originally Posted by Justnslcsugarhood.

A lot of People, my self included, view HB 81 and HB 242 to be very antagonistic to the Latina/o community. In HB 81 if you have any suspicion that some one is an undocumented immigrant you have to have them verify there immigration status, If you are a doctor and you help an undocumented patient, be you unaware of it, then you just committed a felony, if you are a police officer and have a suspicion that some one is undocumented then you have to have them verify status. The issue that some have is that this will cause a lot of racial profiling due to the fact people may begin to assume if you are Latina you are undocumented.
People shouldn't have to carry around a birth certificate to prove they were born here and are a third generation "immigrant'' when ever they go to the doctors or get pulled over for a traffic violation.

Also, Chris Buttars comments on Brown vs. Board of Education, the black baby comment and the gay comments he made make our state look a little bit like Alabama circa 1828 especially since after he made the first two comments he was put back on the same committees he was taken off of a year later.

Hickums, or however you spell his name, started crying during a speech in which he said that undocumented immigration is the plot of the devil to bring down the US is a little bit insane.

Also, all the bills that Wadoups try's to pass are a little ridiculous as well.
The people of this state are wonderful. The legislature...... maybe not.

I wasn't supportive of either of those bills then or now, but at the same time I think it should be remembered that a large segment of the Hispanic community is just as frustrated with illegal immigration as is other groups of people. Thankfully SB 81 is not being implemented by most law enforcement agencies. The rest of the stories are individuals who will say what they say. Every state and community has it outliers who get extreme. I doubt many people (outside of Utah) ever hear about these comments or remember them. I think Utah does many wonderful things to welcome groups such as Hispanics. Our religious communities here are great at reaching out, our schools do what they can to accommodate their needs and many other programs seek to make sure they gain skills and knowledge to thrive in this area. Surely things could be done better, but I think this state's government does great things.

PS- I still think the legislature does a great job, most of the time, to progress the state forward. I would invite people to follow the next session online or attend some committee meetings in person, you will see some real thoughtful people who wish to make a positive difference.

[Zionide]

Originally Posted by WeST

I wasn't supportive of either of those bills then or now, but at the same time I think it should be remembered that a large segment of the Hispanic community is just as frustrated with illegal immigration as is other groups of people.

I agree with you, but that doesn't change the perception created about Utah in the minds of the rest of the country.

Originally Posted by WeST

Every state and community has it outliers who get extreme. I doubt many people (outside of Utah) ever hear about these comments or remember them.

This I completely disagree with. Every major news organization, including CNN, ABC News, NPR, even the BBC, covered Buttars remarks---both times---and the passage of HB 81. And in June when I called my credit card company about something, the overly-friendly customer service agent in Atlanta, upon seeing my address, said, "Oh, Utah---you've got that racist butter guy, huh?"

Seriously.... the racist butter guy. She obviously didn't know the specifics or the whole story, but she knew enough that Utah was flagged in her mind as a backwards, racist place.

I do think that perception, accurate or not, is very much out there and harmful to our economy. There are trade organizations whose bylaws specifically prevent them from holding conventions in states they consider discriminatory (top of their lists: South Carolina, Virginia, and Utah).

Amendment 3 almost cost me two clients in my freelance work; I reached an agreement with both where they fly me to them instead of visiting the state and spending any money here. (I actually selfishly prefer it this way so I get to travel, but that's beside the point.)

Originally Posted by WeST

I still think the legislature does a great job, most of the time, to progress the state forward. I would invite people to follow the next session online or attend some committee meetings in person, you will see some real thoughtful people who wish to make a positive difference.

Yeah, as long as the positive difference is beneficial to them, their friends, their neighbors, or the lobbyists who cater to them. I only go to one or two sessions each year, so my experiences are not far-reaching, but I've found most our state elected officials to be more self-serving than anything.

[WeST]

Fund gap may sink North Temple viaduct plan

http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_13017795

"There's a real possibility we could walk away from the [viaduct] project," said Ben McAdams, Mayor Ralph Becker's legislative liaison. "There's a serious risk."

Complicating matters, city engineers are staring, literally, at an oncoming train.

The Utah Transit Authority has begun construction for a TRAX train to ferry passengers between the international airport and downtown. And the agency needs direction on where to lay the North Temple viaduct track.

"They want to know yesterday," McAdams said, noting UTA needs a design decision by the end of September "at the latest."

If the rebuild crumbles, the city could revert to its original (much cheaper) plan of snaking TRAX between the viaduct's existing pillars -- stopping at a transfer station complete with elevator and escalators to FrontRunner midway across the bridge -- then descending back down to 600 West.

[WeST]

Originally Posted by Zionide

This I completely disagree with. Every major news organization, including CNN, ABC News, NPR, even the BBC, covered Buttars remarks---both times---and the passage of HB 81. And in June when I called my credit card company about something, the overly-friendly customer service agent in Atlanta, upon seeing my address, said, "Oh, Utah---you've got that racist butter guy, huh?"

Seriously.... the racist butter guy. She obviously didn't know the specifics or the whole story, but she knew enough that Utah was flagged in her mind as a backwards, racist place.

I do think that perception, accurate or not, is very much out there and harmful to our economy. There are trade organizations whose bylaws specifically prevent them from holding conventions in states they consider discriminatory (top of their lists: South Carolina, Virginia, and Utah).

Amendment 3 almost cost me two clients in my freelance work; I reached an agreement with both where they fly me to them instead of visiting the state and spending any money here. (I actually selfishly prefer it this way so I get to travel, but that's beside the point.)

This Buttars thing is largely the fault of the Democrats in the legislature, their party leaders and the lousy media. I don't believe for a second that Buttars is a racist, but when parties foment this through press conferences and sending out media blitzes, then it gets blown up and distorted. The national media parroted the spin. Buttars is a knucklehead whom I would never support, but is far from a racist. He has a knack for insensitive and ridiculous comments, but otherwise represents his constituents fairly well. Again my point is policy. Some of the immigration bills, as has been pointed out, are damaging, but many states have done likewise on immigration.

As far as it hurting the economy, you can never make everyone happy. If you changed some laws around and went in a more liberal way, then there would be other businesses that would avoid or boycott you. Do you think San Francisco has ever had a company not do business there or relocate a operation because of their nutty government? I would be surprised if it hasn't happened. Utah has plenty of companies relocating or expanding here, so I am not too worried about companies doing what these nutty trade orgs. do.

[TonyAnderson]

Originally Posted by Justnslcsugarhood.

A lot of People, my self included, view HB 81 and HB 242 to be very antagonistic to the Latina/o community. In HB 81 if you have any suspicion that some one is an undocumented immigrant you have to have them verify there immigration status, If you are a doctor and you help an undocumented patient, be you unaware of it, then you just committed a felony, if you are a police officer and have a suspicion that some one is undocumented then you have to have them verify status. The issue that some have is that this will cause a lot of racial profiling due to the fact people may begin to assume if you are Latina you are undocumented. This is further exasperated by the fact people think only "Mexicans" are undocumented and the fact that helping an undocumented immigrant is a felony. The fact last fact may cause people to become very reactionary when they should be acting in a professional manner.
People shouldn't have to carry around a birth certificate to prove they were born here and are a third generation "immigrant'' when ever they go to the doctors or get pulled over for a traffic violation.

I don't think laws supporting stricter enforcement on illegal immigration is creating a bad business climate for the state. In fact, some may view that as beneficial for business. Though I'm not saying I agree with the law in general. I think one of the reasons laws like that are even proposed is because of the amount of illegal immigration in Utah, while many other states don't have to deal with it to nearly such a degree.

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by East2Westback

Stennar, this is not a slam and do not take it that way. I grew up and love SLC yet it did nothing to fulfill what I wanted.

I have been in NYC for about 20 plus years. I now live in Tappan, New York about 12 miles north on the Hudson river. My studio for writing is on West 86th.

No matter how you cut it or want to look at it...NYC outside of Tokyo (which I have spent a good deal of time is, is absolutely and totally way expensive. Icould live anywhere in the US for half or less the price.

I am not sure where Stennar gets his figures but let me know... I live the reality. I have been lucky but I have also worked with some supremely talanted and scarey musicians (who would be absolutely the greatest players in any part of the USA) who barely get by.

NYC is a rich person's place. That is why I moved to Tappan. 12 miles north 1/2 the price. My writing studio is in NYC but it is shared by 6 musicians...that is why it is affordable.

You do not care about money...go to Tokyo...awesome enviroment for creating. You care about money but want to be creative go to SF...Not so visible but loaced with creative people. Want to be in a creative environment loaded with narcissistic an anal people go to LA. If you want truly creative people who are willing to suffer in live in virtual tenements go to NYC.

Stenar, I do not know your experiences here but you better be F'ing good to survive...or lucky and I have been way lucky! I have talent but in reality, I see hyper creativive and talented people daily.

Manhattan is a business oriented rich man's island and anyone who tries to create a norm reality has not lived the real deal.

When I first moved to NYC, I had a part time job making $55k/year. I was a graphic designer for a market research firm. After that, I had various jobs working variously doing design, event planning, publicity, marketing making anywhere from $90k to $140k/year.

I was paying $540/mo rent in SLC just before I moved and I paid $750/mo. rent in NYC on Sutton Place, near 58th and 1st Ave, which is a wealthy neighborhood in Manhattan--not that I was wealthy. I know the apt I was renting should've probably rented for $1500/mo or more, but I got it through a friend who owned it, but it was empty and he didn't need the money. So, he gave me a deal on the rent.

So, my experience living in NYC was that I had a LOT of excess income and in SLC I don't have nearly so much.

Most of my friends made way more money than I did. They were all making $150k to $250k or more.

[Comrade]

ha, I can't even take WeST seriously with that pathetic avatar.

It's sad so many people are ignorant to true political ideologies and so quickly toss around Marxist, Socialist and Fascist without even a hint of understanding.

[WeST]

Originally Posted by Comrade Reynolds

ha, I can't even take WeST seriously with that pathetic avatar.

It's sad so many people are ignorant to true political ideologies and so quickly toss around Marxist, Socialist and Fascist without even a hint of understanding.

I do understand political ideologies. I have read the Communist Manifesto and Das Kapital. In Kapital Marx lays many criticisms on capitalism, which are many of the same criticisms Progressive Democrats today use. Marx believed that the "workers revolution" would come through a grassroots overthrow of the Bourgeoisie and establish first a socialist order, then a communist system. While the avatar is a bit of hyperbole, there should be no doubt by anyone with a cursory understanding of political ideologies that his beliefs and many policies are greatly influenced by the work of Marx. Read or reread Kapital and then listen to any number of his campaign speeches and you'll find a familiar tone.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by WeST

I do understand political ideologies. I have read the Communist Manifesto and Das Kapital. In Kapital Marx lays many criticisms on capitalism, which are many of the same criticisms Progressive Democrats today use. Marx believed that the "workers revolution" would come through a grassroots overthrow of the Bourgeoisie and establish first a socialist order, then a communist system. While the avatar is a bit of hyperbole, there should be no doubt by anyone with a cursory understanding of political ideologies that his beliefs and many policies are greatly influenced by the work of Marx. Read or reread Kapital and then listen to any number of his campaign speeches and you'll find a familiar tone.

I am sorry, but if you're going to suggest Obama is a Marxist - or close to it, you don't have a damn clue and I can't take what you say seriously at all.

Just as I didn't take those on the left seriously when they called Bush a fascist.

I think you need to actually read up on true communism and Marxism, then compare it to Pres. Obama's policies and you'll see they are not even remotely alike.

Hell, compared to many liberals in Europe (socialist, not communist), Obama is a reactionist.

It's beyond being a hyperbole. Your avatar is a ridiculous lie.

[Comrade]

And if we're going to compare progressive Democrats to Karl Marx, can I compare right-wing fundamentalist Republicans to Adolf Hitler?

Not that I would...

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by Comrade Reynolds

I am sorry, but if you're going to suggest Obama is a Marxist - or close to it, you don't have a damn clue and I can't take what you say seriously at all.

Just as I didn't take those on the left seriously when they called Bush a fascist.

I think you need to actually read up on true communism and Marxism, then compare it to Pres. Obama's policies and you'll see they are not even remotely alike.

Hell, compared to many liberals in Europe (socialist, not communist), Obama is a reactionist.

It's beyond being a hyperbole. Your avatar is a ridiculous lie.

I feel the same way.

[Zionide]

Originally Posted by WeST

This Buttars thing is largely the fault of the Democrats in the legislature, their party leaders and the lousy media. I don't believe for a second that Buttars is a racist, but when parties foment this through press conferences and sending out media blitzes, then it gets blown up and distorted. The national media parroted the spin. Buttars is a knucklehead whom I would never support, but is far from a racist. He has a knack for insensitive and ridiculous comments, but otherwise represents his constituents fairly well. Again my point is policy.

Buttars is an abusive, ignorant, racist misogynist. I've witnessed his meltdowns firsthand. His shady backroom deals with developers don't represent his constituents well, nor do his threats of political blacklist when one disagrees with his ideology.

To blame a Democratic minority and that conservative catch-all scapegoat, the media (like, hmm.... the liberal bastion that is KSL perhaps?), for the deserved attention garnered for words that came out of Buttars' mouth is ignorant at best and insulting at worst.

[Zionide]

Originally Posted by WeST

Do you think San Francisco has ever had a company not do business there or relocate a operation because of their nutty government? I would be surprised if it hasn't happened.

Maybe small, mom-and-pop businesses. But the big boys? Actually, no. It's the opposite. Companies that don't normally offer things like domestic partner benefits add them in their San Francisco offices only, because they're required by city ordinance to do so (Clear Channel, Walmart). They make special exception TO do business there.

And given that 97% of Fortune 500 companies have anti-discrimination policies in place that protect gay employees (and 90% of the Fortune 10 companies----Exxon being the lone holdout), the political trend in big business is San Francisco, not Utah.

[Crush_Buds]

Originally Posted by Comrade Reynolds

I am sorry, but if you're going to suggest Obama is a Marxist - or close to it, you don't have a damn clue and I can't take what you say seriously at all.

Just as I didn't take those on the left seriously when they called Bush a fascist.

I think you need to actually read up on true communism and Marxism, then compare it to Pres. Obama's policies and you'll see they are not even remotely alike.

Hell, compared to many liberals in Europe (socialist, not communist), Obama is a reactionist.

It's beyond being a hyperbole. Your avatar is a ridiculous lie.

Awesome.

Anyone that has a lame avatar such as that I put on ignore almost immediately. There is little reason in arguing with one who has already made up their mind so firmly and extreme. The entire Bush administration was about buying up and nationalizing banks and companies. Yeah thats definitely more red than what Obama has ever done. Most people just buy into the fear and label of communism which is as silly now as it was 50 years ago. It's different and it's "scary" so they use that as an argument against Obama, but have little else to say why or what it is actually bad about his ideas. Other than it goes against what our perfect little idea of capitalism is, which is apparently "unpatriotic" should we try to deter from or criticize in any way. Face it, had any Dem been elected, the opponents would still be associating that person with the same bullshit because they have already taken a firm, illogical, and partisan stance well beforehand.

The whole idea "It's not my team in the first place, so i'll root against it," is sickening. I don't agree with everything any one party does. Think for yourself and not what one of two groups tells you to think, or what side to take. Screw the two party system. Question everything.

That being said, SLC looks like its moving along nicely. That SLC Creek development is insanely ambitious, and I dig it. It looks like a little Dubai with all that construction going on. I'm actually kinda curious to travel to SLC now after looking at this form for a while. You are our Four Corner neighbors after all, and I've seen New Mexico and Arizona already. SLC seems like a cousin to Denver and we both are obviously economically linked and well placed to recover from this recession. It also gives me hope that one day we will host an Olympics too. We can learn a lot from each other.

[Sight-Seer]

When companies are moving their headquarters or major operations, they most likely are very influenced by their current employees. If they don't want to move to Salt Lake because of things they have heard, the company will go somewhere else. The perceptions of the common people are important. People like Buttars and the gay demonstrations are what people know about Utah. They look bad and will keep companies away. It probably happens somewhere in the country every day. Some company is thinking of moving and management says "How about Salt Lake?" and the employees say "I'm not moving there!" Some of the recent posts are out of touch. They evidently didn't read the posts about the (possibly tangential) relationship between gay-acceptance and general talent in the labor pool in other cities. Don't you watch "Will and Grace"?