Canada Line | Completed

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Every time I see those charts, with the 99 at #1 and the 9 at #3 with a combined 72,500 boardings, compared to the 97 in 21st place with 10,200 , I ask why why WHY are they building the Evergreen Line before the UBC line?

I think about that too.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by jlousa

Not sure why people are laughing at the current failure of Seattle's Line, we should be saddened not mocking it.
Their line will be get better once it's completed, hopefully we learn a thing or two by any mistakes they've made.

Competition....i can get quite cocky at times.

[Metro-One]

Simply because the #97 is so inefficient at being a B-line bus that most avoid it at all costs and will drive instead. The Evergreen line though will have much higher ridership numbers (than the 97) for it will attract many in Coquitlam and the surrounding communities to take the train. You two are both missing the big picture by focussing on one piece of a much larger puzzle.

Not to mention it has been promised for decades now and the cities are generally welcoming it, unlike the NIMBY parade waiting along Broadway.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Simply because the #97 is so inefficient at being a B-line bus that most avoid it at all costs and will drive instead. The Evergreen line though will have much higher ridership numbers (than the 97) for it will attract many in Coquitlam and the surrounding communities to take the train. You two are both missing the big picture by focussing on one piece of a much larger puzzle.

Not to mention it has been promised for decades now and the cities are generally welcoming it, unlike the NIMBY parade waiting along Broadway.

In terms of actual ridership along the new 11-km span built for the Evergreen Line, ridership will certainly be much higher than the 97's ridership of ~15,000......but I think we'll be lucky to even hit 50,000/day in the first years of operation.

You're right about looking into the future and that these cities actually WANT the line, whereas the Broadway NIMBY's are in the way.

[Unregistered]

I'm obviously not against the Evergreen Line, I just think in terms of demand, potential ridership, relieving congestion, freeing up buses for different routes, etc, that the extension to UBC is of higher priority; it's certainly not something that should wait 11 years.

[mr.x]

What is the likelihood that the Canada Line's design was based on the crush load capacity figure of the trains instead of normal capacity which we use in North America?

RAVCO did not specify what type of capacity the 15,000 pphpd should be based on. All they said in the requirements was to build a line with a 15,000 pphpd capacity. Period.

So, by technicality, InTransitBC could have built the line using crush load capacity - meaning the real capacity (normal capacity) would be far lower than the capacity we define with for our existing SkyTrain, buses, and Seabus ferries. Afterall, platform lengths weren't even specified: all they were asked to do is design a line with 15,000 pphpd and with a max. 25-minute travel time from terminus and terminus and how they will achieve that is up to them to design.

The crush load capacity of a two-car train is 400 passengers while the real/normal capacity is 334 passengers. That's a big difference, meaning it could potentially mean that the real capacity, based on normal train capacity figures, would be far lower than 15,000 pphpd as it's based on crush load trains.

[lightrail]

Originally Posted by mr.x

Service Frequency*
Until 7 a.m. Mon-Fri, 9 a.m. Sat and 10 a.m. Sun/Holidays 6 mins
Then until 6 p.m. every day 4 mins
6 p.m. - 11 p.m. 6 mins
11 p.m. until end of service 10 mins
*Between Bridgeport and Waterfront. Trains run half as often between Bridgeport & YVR-Airport/Richmond-Brighouse.

I hope these are just start-up frequencies. Even so, the frequencies on the two branches after 11pm are dismal - 20 minutes between trains is not a "turn-up-and-go" system - at these frequencies, the buses need to be timed to mee the trains and train schedules need to be posted.

Further, how can Translink justify the extra $2.50 grab-fare for the airport, when after 11pm you may have to wait on a cold drafty platform, sitting on a metal Corrections Canada reject chair waiting up to 20 minutes for a train.

Here's how the branches stack up with other subway and RT lines in Canada, freqencies are all after 11pm:

Toronto:
Younge-University-Spadina Subway - 5 minutes
Bloor-Danforth Subway - 6 minutes
Sheppard Subway - 6 minutes
Scarbourgh RT - 6 minutes

Montreal
Line 1 Green - 8 minutes til midnight, then 12 minutes
Line 2 Orange- 8 minutes til midnight, then 12 minutes
Line 4 Yellow 10 minutes
Line 5 Blue- 10 minutes

Calgary
C-Train 201 - 15 minutes
C-train 202 - 15 minutes

Edmonton
LRT - 15 minutes

Ottawa
O-Train - 30 minutes

Vancouver
Skytrain Expo - 8 minutes*
Skytrain Millennium - 8 minutes*
Skytrain Canada - 20 minutes**

* combines Waterfront to Columbia to provide 4 minute headways
** combines Richmond and Airport branches Waterfront to Bridgeport to provide 10 minute headways

I also note that the 98-B-Line currently runs every 15 minutes after 11pm - so the Canada Line represents a reduction in frequency (at least in Richmond) - surely this is not going to encourage ridership late at night?

[mr.x]

^ I couldn't agree more. 10-minutes in Vancouver and 20-minutes in the spurs is absolutely ridiculous. I've been saying that for five years now in the RFP, the frequencies were agreed upon in the contract that was signed....or rather the operational requirements that RAVCO had set.

This is the frequency I would have:

Until 7 a.m. Mon-Fri, 9 a.m. Sat and 10 a.m. Sun/Holidays 5 mins/10 min*
Then until 6 p.m. every day 3 mins/6 min*
6 p.m. - 11 p.m. 5 mins/10 min*
11 p.m. until end of service 7 mins/14 min*
*Trains run half as often between Bridgeport & YVR-Airport/Richmond-Brighouse.



It's an automated system. It should be easy to increase frequency. It's not like we need drivers for the trains.

[Jared]

I really don't understand why some of you are laughing at Seattle. I'd describe their low numbers as disappointing, but not something to be mocked. Is this meant to be some ridiculous extension of "LRT vs. SkyTrain" or what? Are you guys going to have the same attitude towards the Canada Line if it doesn't meet opening day goals?

It's been open ONE MONTH; a lot of people probably haven't adjusted their schedules yet. Besides, its summer; let's see how it does come September. Also keep in mind, ridership on rail lines generally seems to grow quite quickly in the first few years (see Millennium Line for example, though some of that is due to U-Pass being introduced), and then slow down to a more long term growth rate. Judging a system designed to operate for decades and decades based on a single month of performance is stupid. Also, from what some Seattle forumer posted at some point, their extension to UW (short distance, only a couple miles IIRC) is expected to boost ridership quite a lot when it opens.

lightrail, yes those will be just the start-up frequencies, to begin with. As ridership increases, they'll boost service levels.

[nname]

Originally Posted by mr.x

This is the frequency I would have:

Until 7 a.m. Mon-Fri, 9 a.m. Sat and 10 a.m. Sun/Holidays 5 mins/10 min*
Then until 6 p.m. every day 3 mins/6 min*
6 p.m. - 11 p.m. 5 mins/10 min*
11 p.m. until end of service 7 mins/14 min*
*Trains run half as often between Bridgeport & YVR-Airport/Richmond-Brighouse.

I would like it to be:

Until 6:30 a.m. Mon-Fri, 9 a.m. Sat and 10 a.m. Sun/Holidays 5 mins/10 min
Then until 7 p.m. every day 3 mins/6 min
7 p.m. - 11 p.m. 4 mins/8 min
11 p.m. until end of service 8 mins/8 min

For late night, all trains will go to Richmond and a shuttle train run between Bridgeport and YVR-Airport. This way, the airport branch EB can run later into midnight too, as I feel the end time of ~12:30 is too early as people who got to Vancouver from a late night plane will probably miss the last train.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by nname

I would like it to be:

11 p.m. until end of service 8 mins/8 min

For late night, all trains will go to Richmond and a shuttle train run between Bridgeport and YVR-Airport. This way, the airport branch EB can run later into midnight too, as I feel the end time of ~12:30 is too early as people who got to Vancouver from a late night plane will probably miss the last train.

That's a great idea....but would the ATC be capable of that?

[lightrail]

Originally Posted by mr.x

^ I couldn't agree more. 10-minutes in Vancouver and 20-minutes in the spurs is absolutely ridiculous. I've been saying that for five years now in the RFP, the frequencies were agreed upon in the contract that was signed....or rather the operational requirements that RAVCO had set.

This is the frequency I would have:

Until 7 a.m. Mon-Fri, 9 a.m. Sat and 10 a.m. Sun/Holidays 5 mins/10 min*
Then until 6 p.m. every day 3 mins/6 min*
6 p.m. - 11 p.m. 5 mins/10 min*
11 p.m. until end of service 7 mins/14 min*
*Trains run half as often between Bridgeport & YVR-Airport/Richmond-Brighouse.



It's an automated system. It should be easy to increase frequency. It's not like we need drivers for the trains.

Thanks - yes. why are they being so frugal with frequencies when the trains are automated. I also wonder why they're deadheading trains to Waterfront for a 4:50am start, or are they stabling trains at Waterfront overnight?

With the given schedules, then with a 4 minute combined headway, 8 minutes on the branches, I estimate there will be 14 trains in service; this will drop to 10 trains on a 6 minute (12 min branch) schedule and after 11pm there will be 6 trains in operation.

If the trains can really take 400 passenger crush load, then the current schedule will move 6,000 people per hour per direction (on combined section), 3,000 per hour per direction on the branches. After 11pm, the crush load capacity will be 2,400 people per hour per direction (on combined section) and 1,200 per hour on the branches. Of course, with these frequencies, there'd be an outcry if crush loads appeared on trains running every 20 minutes.

With 20 trains, the best frequency, using 18 of the trains (keeping two for spares) is a train every 3 minutes on the combined section (6 minutes on the branches) - crush load capacity would be 8,000 people per hour per direction this allows a few minutes for recovery at each end (not much is needed on an automated system as you don't need to wait for a driver to switch ends.

[lightrail]

Originally Posted by mr.x

That's a great idea....but would the ATC be capable of that?

This can be done on Skytrain Expo and Millenium as they quite often short-turn trains as needed - some at Broadway, some at Columbia, etc.

I think this could work on Canada Line - I assume the software is robust enough for it. The main problem on Canada Line is that there are no sidings for turn back of trains, meaning the train would need to reverse in the terminus station (Bridgeport). This is what actually happens on Skytrain at Columbia - so it may work, but without a turn back, it might be hard to created timed connections to and from the Vancouver trains.

Ideal the shuttle would arrive Bridgeport a minute ahead of the through trains, drop off it's passengers, then go to a siding. Wait for the Vancouver bound train to pass through and the Richmond bound train to pass through, then the shuttle would re-enter the station, pick up passenger from Vancouver and Richmond and proceed to the airport. Can't do this without a siding.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by lightrail

With the given schedules, then with a 4 minute combined headway, 8 minutes on the branches, I estimate there will be 14 trains in service; this will drop to 10 trains on a 6 minute (12 min branch) schedule and after 11pm there will be 6 trains in operation.

Far too few trains online.

If the trains can really take 400 passenger crush load, then the current schedule will move 6,000 people per hour per direction (on combined section), 3,000 per hour per direction on the branches. After 11pm, the crush load capacity will be 2,400 people per hour per direction (on combined section) and 1,200 per hour on the branches. Of course, with these frequencies, there'd be an outcry if crush loads appeared on trains running every 20 minutes.

With 20 trains, the best frequency, using 18 of the trains (keeping two for spares) is a train every 3 minutes on the combined section (6 minutes on the branches) - crush load capacity would be 8,000 people per hour per direction this allows a few minutes for recovery at each end (not much is needed on an automated system as you don't need to wait for a driver to switch ends.

Translink doesn't use crush loads, so the 400 figure that InTransitBC is advertising is basically useless. I'd calculate the capacity with the normal capacity of 334 passengers per train instead. I highly doubt we'd even be capable of loading 400 people onto that 2-car train with the Vancouver mentality of needing private space.

The normal load for one Mark II car is 128 passengers while the crush load is 171 passengers.


Capacity per car (standees and seated)
- @ 4 passengers/m2: normal capacity
- @ 6 passengers/m2: crush load
- @ 8 passengers/m2: sardine can load?

[nname]

Originally Posted by lightrail

Ideal the shuttle would arrive Bridgeport a minute ahead of the through trains, drop off it's passengers, then go to a siding. Wait for the Vancouver bound train to pass through and the Richmond bound train to pass through, then the shuttle would re-enter the station, pick up passenger from Vancouver and Richmond and proceed to the airport. Can't do this without a siding.

Remember the OTC is immediately right after the station? The train can just go into the OTC, go under the track to the other side, then revert back to the guideway after the Richmond bound train had passed. I think this is doable as there are many short turned train between Bridgeport and YVR/Brighouse in the morning and evening.

[ravman]

Originally Posted by mr.x

I believe he also compared Falcon to Hitler, and he also wanted Falcon dead.

This guy is

Originally Posted by mr.x

Service Frequency*
Until 7 a.m. Mon-Fri, 9 a.m. Sat and 10 a.m. Sun/Holidays 6 mins
Then until 6 p.m. every day 4 mins
6 p.m. - 11 p.m. 6 mins
11 p.m. until end of service 10 mins
*Between Bridgeport and Waterfront. Trains run half as often between Bridgeport & YVR-Airport/Richmond-Brighouse.

so if i were in richmond/ YVR
Service Frequency
Until 7 a.m. Mon-Fri, 9 a.m. Sat and 10 a.m. Sun/Holidays 12 mins
Then until 6 p.m. every day 8 mins
6 p.m. - 11 p.m. 12 mins
11 p.m. until end of service 20 mins
*Between Bridgeport and Waterfront. Trains run half as often between Bridgeport & YVR-Airport/Richmond-Brighouse.


THIS IS WHAT YOU GET FOR SINGLE TRACKING.

THIS IS WHAT U GET FOR A P3 SYSTEM!

add in the fact that 37,000 NEW riders have to use the Canada Line..... means this is a SHORT TRAIN FIASCO!

[argon007]

Originally Posted by mr.x

<<pictures deleted by argon007>>

Service Frequency*
Until 7 a.m. Mon-Fri, 9 a.m. Sat and 10 a.m. Sun/Holidays 6 mins
Then until 6 p.m. every day 4 mins
6 p.m. - 11 p.m. 6 mins
11 p.m. until end of service 10 mins
*Between Bridgeport and Waterfront. Trains run half as often between Bridgeport & YVR-Airport/Richmond-Brighouse.

here is what i think:

Service Frequency*
Until 6:30 a.m. Mon-Fri, 9 a.m. Sat/Sun/Holidays 5 mins
Then until 7 p.m. every day 3 mins
7 p.m. - 11 p.m. 5 mins
11 p.m. until end of service 8 mins
*Between Bridgeport and Waterfront. Trains run half as often between Bridgeport & YVR-Airport/Richmond-Brighouse.

why would i revise? i think:
1. some riders are full-time students, workers and they need to take the Canada Line for schooling and working.
2. some riders on saturday, sunday, holidays are going to play outside (North Vancouver, Queen Elizabeth Park) and shopping (Downtown, Oakridge, Aberdeen, Yaohan, President Plaza, Lansdowne, Richmond Centre)
3. some riders on 7pm - 11pm are going home from school (like part time students at BCIT, night school at UBC and SFU) and on Sat/Sun/Holiday... they need to go home.
4. i agreed that mr. X and nname said that it is too early for ending services, they should end service at 1:30 or some passengers from airplane late night will miss the Canada Line trains.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by ravman

This guy is

You want Falcon dead? You're disgusting.

BTW, queetz is a BC Liberal.

THIS IS WHAT YOU GET FOR SINGLE TRACKING.

THIS IS WHAT U GET FOR A P3 SYSTEM!

THIS IS WHAT U GET WITH THE BC LIBERALS!!!!

add in the fact that 37,000 NEW riders have to use the Canada Line..... means this is a SHORT TRAIN FIASCO!

You're an idiot.

1) It has nothing to do with single tracking. You can still reach frequencies of 3-4 minutes in the single tracked sections with more trains. That's still a very high frequency.

2) There's nothing wrong with having a P3 system, but rather what type of P3 system.

3) That doesn't even make any logical sense.



This has nothing to do with politics. Really, you should be suspended for your persistent trolling behaviour. Would it kill you to not discuss politics in one of your posts or to polarize every single issue? You don't even add to the discussion or even an educated opinion, you just play the blame game and point fingers.

You care more about party lines rather than the overall good of your city and province.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by argon007

here is what i think:

Service Frequency*
Until 6:30 a.m. Mon-Fri, 9 a.m. Sat/Sun/Holidays 5 mins
Then until 7 p.m. every day 3 mins
7 p.m. - 11 p.m. 5 mins
11 p.m. until end of service 8 mins
*Between Bridgeport and Waterfront. Trains run half as often between Bridgeport & YVR-Airport/Richmond-Brighouse.

why would i revise? i think:
1. some riders are full-time students, workers and they need to take the Canada Line for schooling and working.
2. some riders on saturday, sunday, holidays are going to play outside (North Vancouver, Queen Elizabeth Park) and shopping (Downtown, Oakridge, Aberdeen, Yaohan, President Plaza, Lansdowne, Richmond Centre)
3. some riders on 7pm - 11pm are going home from school (like part time students at BCIT, night school at UBC and SFU) and on Sat/Sun/Holiday... they need to go home.
4. i agreed that mr. X and nname said that it is too early for ending services, they should end service at 1:30 or some passengers from airplane late night will miss the Canada Line trains.

Great points!

I personally wouldn't have frequencies any lower than 15-minutes along the line. IMO, late night in Vancouver should be 7 and YVR/Richmond at 14-15.

[GeeCee]

Hey ravman, if the NDP was in power while the line was built, it would end up being totally unsuitable for the region and mothballed after six months. This isn't good enough, but it's sure as hell better than what Carole James would have built.