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  #2181  
Old Posted Jul 2, 2009, 3:36 AM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is online now
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I think Susie was saying an average of 3 car trains, assuming 4 car trains east-west and 2 car trains north-south. This is not an unreasonable assumption when we startup. It is unreasonable to suggest that there is no additional operating costs to add extra cars to trains. You still need electricity to run the additional cars as well as maintenance. I do agree that as you add cars to trains, the cost per rider will drop.

I will agree also with Susie that off-peak service must not be substantially lower than current bus service. If we run trains only every 15 or 20 minutes during off-peak hours, this WILL result in loss of ridership. LRT requires more transfers and the longer transfer delays will discourage people from using the system.

Calgary's success and low costs have been created by the high density of employment in downtown, and very high parking costs. This makes people put up with very crowded trains that are probably running near capacity during peak periods. Calgary is now expanding platforms as longer trains is the only way to add more capacity to the system. More frequent trains during peak periods is not an option.

I like the idea of trunk express bus routes but why would Ottawa implement them now with the Transitways to be converted in the next few years? We don't want to provide a service comparison that LRT can never achieve.
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  #2182  
Old Posted Jul 2, 2009, 10:54 PM
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  #2183  
Old Posted Jul 3, 2009, 1:37 AM
Suzie Suzie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d_jeffrey View Post
To be short, the numbers were explained by Dado as being cost per hours, not per trip, or something to that matter, so they couldn't be compared directly. This is the main reason it couldn't be compared. LRT costs for Calgary were about 1.25$ per user.
Operating costs are determined by amount of transit service supplied, which is mainly a function of vehicle-hours and vehicle-kilometres. I used vehicle-hours (i.e., the same parameter) to calculate the operating costs of both bus and LRT options.

Further, the rail and bus options would have similar ridership totals (actually, the “best bus option”, for the reasons I outlined in my original post, would have higher ridership totals).

Quote:
Plus it is easy for you to say, oh, we'll use 3-car trains because of the higher service. The point of LRT or rail-based system is exactly that, to add cars with no additional operating costs. The cut off profibility for LRT compared to BRT is at 3 cars, the same one you say shouldn't go higher!
I outlined the reasons for using 3-car numbers in my original post. It’s a good representation of start-up and it was the only data that was available. I would have been nice if the MRC/Delcan report had: (1) spelled out the exact train lengths that would be used during each time period, (2) included accurate cost estimates for these train lengths, and (3) outlined ballpark estimates for the headways at various times of the day and the amount of train-hours supplied. That would have made calculating the operating costs a lot easier. But it didn’t (perhaps because it would have shown the very poor headways during the off-peak period). So I was forced to use the information available to calculate the most reasonable estimate possible of the operating costs of both options.

If I had used the $172 per car-hour figure for LRT trains of 6-cars, I would have been quickly criticized for doing so. Further, the marginal cost of adding a car to a train is not zero. If that were true, the cost of running single-car trains in Calgary would be $516 per hour.

People need to understand that lengthening trains, while it saves on operating costs, increases cost for users. During the off-peak period, the increase in cost for users (because they hate waiting so much) is likely to be greater than the savings in operating costs. You need to run trains at reasonable headways.

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Your so call scrutiny is for you to put the information as to arrive at your results, basically you do what consultants do all the time. With a multiple variable equation, you fix the ones you want to have a higher result elsewhere. It doesn't work that way, and if you would do something like that in one of my course, you would be failed.
In my original post, I outlined in great detail what I did with the MRC/Delcan numbers. If you want me to explain how I put together my simplified cost model, I’d be happy to do it.

Quote:
"However, frequencies that are 7 times lower than bus would not be acceptable during the off-peak period"

According to who exactly? At this stage, I'm giving up, I'm really tired of this endless discussion.
The empirical evidence is overwhelming that transit users particularly dislike waiting. In the region’s own transportation demand model, one minute of waiting is equivalent to three minutes of in-vehicle time. In this context, headways of 15 minutes to 20 minutes would be regarded as extremely onerous. If you happen to just miss your train, the wait would feel like a 45-minute to 60-minute train trip. Further, such headways would also be much greater than those enjoyed currently. This would be another reason why they would not be viewed as acceptable.
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  #2184  
Old Posted Jul 3, 2009, 2:26 AM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is offline
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An old post to dig up once again.
Quote:
Vehicle Maintenance costs: $13.9M (2006)
Station Maintenance costs: $2.8M (2006)
Right of Way Maintenance costs: $2.9M (2006)
Signals Maintenance costs: $2.4M (2006)
Average annual power costs: $4.8M (2006)
Annual LRV Operator wages: $6.0M (includes fringe benefits of 21.57%) (2006)For a total of 32.8 million, for 2006.

Now in 2006 you had:

Train hours of operation: (2006)
annual: 127,452
per weekday: 388

Working out to $257.35 per train hour of operation. Trains are all three cars, otherwise the statistics would say that each of Calgary's cars were in service for less than 4 hours a day in 2006... I think Delcan may have made a big booboo.

The marginal cost of adding another car to the train per hour of service:
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  #2185  
Old Posted Jul 3, 2009, 3:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suzie View Post
This is a long post, but it needs to be to address the operating cost issue in a comprehensive manner. Please bear with me.

If one assumes realistic headways, there is no operating cost advantage for LRT in Ottawa. Let’s use the MRC/Delcan report (page F-44) as a starting point.

The report used costs of $105 per hour for standard buses, $115 per hour for articulated buses and $172 per hour for LRT cars. A couple of observations:

• The first two are based on current bus costs in Ottawa. Thus, they do not assume any effort on the part of transit operators to bring down their labour costs to levels seen in the rest of the bus industry in Canada (e.g., inter-city operators such as Greyhound). Any such effort would make buses more cost competitive. They also bear absolutely no relationship to bus costs in South America.

• The LRT costs are based on Calgary. They seem consistent with the operating cost per vehicle hour numbers that Calgary has made public (e.g., see bottom paragraph in page 14 of http://www.calgarytransit.com/pdf/Calgary_CTrain_Effective_Capital_Utilization.pdf). As others have noted, they are based on 3-car trains. In my view, this would be quite close to costs during the first years of a built-out LRT system in Ottawa, which would be a mix of 4-car trains (Blair to Baseline) and 2-car trains (N/S Line). Moreover, I hope that Ottawa would not skip on things like air conditioning. So $172 per hour per LRT car is a good ballpark estimate.
That's $172 per hour per 3-car TRAIN* - NOT per single LRT car. That's the big mistake that the consultants made in estimating future operating costs for LRT. It's a great big gaping mistake so large the O-Train could be driven through it because it overstates LRT operating costs by more than threefold [the $172 has 4 basic cost components: 3 identical ones for each car (mainly electricity and maintenance) and a per train component (basically the operator) so using the $172 as it was used isn't just 3 times wrong it's more wrong still because it's also adding in the full per train component to each car -- so taking account of this last point and calculating for only 3-car trains it means that the $434M annual operating cost of Option #4 is in fact below $380M compared to the $485M of Option #1 - nothing like a $50M+ error on something as insignificant as annual operating costs...]. The page you cite above is pretty clear on the matter of what the $172/hour represents: back when it was written they said it cost $163 per hour to operate LRT and then they go on to say in the next sentence that "With an average of 600 boarding passengers per operating hour the average cost per LRT passenger is only $0.27 ($0.23 USD)." The stat of 600 boarding passengers can only come from an entire 3-car train (there's little en-route passenger turnover in Calgary) and one can only get a per passenger cost of $0.27 from the given data by dividing 600 into $163 [($163/hour) / (600 passengers/hour) = $0.27/passenger - the 'hour' terms drop out of the division by cancellation]. Of course that low per passenger cost only occurs at peak periods but the point of the foregoing was to show that the $163/$172 represents the per train and not the per car cost.

They then go on to say: "In comparison, the average for bus passenger boardings is approximately $1.50 ($1.28 USD) or almost 6 times the cost of
carrying an LRT passenger."

Ottawa's average annual per passenger cost was $2.69 in 2007. I would guess that the $1.50 figure for Calgary assumes full buses (makes sense to compare to a full CTrain) because Calgary's systemwide average annual per passenger cost was $2.26 in 2005 (Ottawa's was $2.54 that year). In the time since 2005 Calgary has had significant ridership gains so it's per passenger cost almost certainly went down whereas ours continued to go up even as ridership increased.

Finally, they conclude that paragraph with these words of wisdom: "Of course buses have considerably lower capital cost and have different capabilities."

And that is our problem. Ottawa seems to think that buses can do everything everywhere and always rather than recognizing the different capabilities and uses of different modes. The very existence of Options #1 and #2 in the TMP update presented earnestly in the documentation as if they were viable (14 second headways vs 16 second headways! yippee!) was a clear demonstration of that thought process.


*There is a discrepancy between the $163/hour figure in the Calgary Transit document (along with the $172/hour figure used by Delcan) and the calculated $257/hour figure using data from the Calgary Transit website. If one takes only marginal costs (vehicle maintenance, power, wages) from the website into the calculation then the cost would be $194/hour - closer, but not close enough. I can't resolve this discrepancy to any satisfaction - but whichever is the case it is still a per *TRAIN* cost, not a per LRT car cost and therefore the conclusion that the City's consultants have vastly overestimated LRT operating costs still remains.

To follow on from the chart in the Appleby's post using the derived figures:

1-car train: $159/hour
2-car train: $208/hour
3-car train: $257/hour

So, only against a 1-car train do buses stand a chance of competing. Against even a 2-car train the train comes out ahead since $208/hour is close to the cost of operating two standard buses but the capacity of 2-car train is much greater than that of two buses. And, indeed, the background documents of the N-S LRT business case came to the conclusion that a 2-car train had an operating cost of 83% of that of an equivalent bus-based service. As labour costs rise (for operators and mechanics) and since the cost of diesel will rise more than that of electricity, these numbers will increasingly favour rail as time goes on.
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  #2186  
Old Posted Jul 3, 2009, 3:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
I like the idea of trunk express bus routes but why would Ottawa implement them now with the Transitways to be converted in the next few years? We don't want to provide a service comparison that LRT can never achieve.
We have express bus routes now and we definitely can't achieve that with LRT... trunk expresses are a step towards LRT because they introduce transferring at suburban stations. The idea would be to improve feeder service at the same time. Right now our express route system is a bit of a waste of time because lots of people take them from and to Park & Rides and not in their neighbourhoods. With feeder service being so poor one can hardly blame them: if you work late or leave early you can always get to the P&R on the #95 or #96 and from there you take your car home.

There is one problem with introducing trunk expresses though given our current TMP: there won't be any LRT past the Greenbelt so once LRT is in existence these trunk expresses will either end up being like shuttles (double transfers) or the feeders (or truncated expresses) will have to start crossing the Greenbelt (and then stop again once sanity prevails and LRT crosses it). That's an actual concern I have with them given the current limited-vision TMP.
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  #2187  
Old Posted Jul 3, 2009, 4:04 AM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is offline
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^ Remember also the numbers from Calgary Transit are full system cost, which is likely not as visible on the bus side (due to roads being used). Plus Calgary probably pays around 3 times the amount for electricity than Ottawa would. (wind power premium)

I would also wonder if Ottawa could keep average labour wage and benefits for LRV operators to around $50 dollars an hour.
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  #2188  
Old Posted Jul 3, 2009, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dado View Post
That's $172 per hour per 3-car TRAIN* - NOT per single LRT car. That's the big mistake that the consultants made in estimating future operating costs for LRT. It's a great big gaping mistake so large the O-Train could be driven through it because it overstates LRT operating costs by more than threefold [the $172 has 4 basic cost components: 3 identical ones for each car (mainly electricity and maintenance) and a per train component (basically the operator) so using the $172 as it was used isn't just 3 times wrong it's more wrong still because it's also adding in the full per train component to each car -- so taking account of this last point and calculating for only 3-car trains it means that the $434M annual operating cost of Option #4 is in fact below $380M compared to the $485M of Option #1 - nothing like a $50M+ error on something as insignificant as annual operating costs...]. The page you cite above is pretty clear on the matter of what the $172/hour represents: back when it was written they said it cost $163 per hour to operate LRT and then they go on to say in the next sentence that "With an average of 600 boarding passengers per operating hour the average cost per LRT passenger is only $0.27 ($0.23 USD)." The stat of 600 boarding passengers can only come from an entire 3-car train (there's little en-route passenger turnover in Calgary) and one can only get a per passenger cost of $0.27 from the given data by dividing 600 into $163 [($163/hour) / (600 passengers/hour) = $0.27/passenger - the 'hour' terms drop out of the division by cancellation]. Of course that low per passenger cost only occurs at peak periods but the point of the foregoing was to show that the $163/$172 represents the per train and not the per car cost.

They then go on to say: "In comparison, the average for bus passenger boardings is approximately $1.50 ($1.28 USD) or almost 6 times the cost of
carrying an LRT passenger."

Ottawa's average annual per passenger cost was $2.69 in 2007. I would guess that the $1.50 figure for Calgary assumes full buses (makes sense to compare to a full CTrain) because Calgary's systemwide average annual per passenger cost was $2.26 in 2005 (Ottawa's was $2.54 that year). In the time since 2005 Calgary has had significant ridership gains so it's per passenger cost almost certainly went down whereas ours continued to go up even as ridership increased.

Finally, they conclude that paragraph with these words of wisdom: "Of course buses have considerably lower capital cost and have different capabilities."

And that is our problem. Ottawa seems to think that buses can do everything everywhere and always rather than recognizing the different capabilities and uses of different modes. The very existence of Options #1 and #2 in the TMP update presented earnestly in the documentation as if they were viable (14 second headways vs 16 second headways! yippee!) was a clear demonstration of that thought process.


*There is a discrepancy between the $163/hour figure in the Calgary Transit document (along with the $172/hour figure used by Delcan) and the calculated $257/hour figure using data from the Calgary Transit website. If one takes only marginal costs (vehicle maintenance, power, wages) from the website into the calculation then the cost would be $194/hour - closer, but not close enough. I can't resolve this discrepancy to any satisfaction - but whichever is the case it is still a per *TRAIN* cost, not a per LRT car cost and therefore the conclusion that the City's consultants have vastly overestimated LRT operating costs still remains.

To follow on from the chart in the Appleby's post using the derived figures:

1-car train: $159/hour
2-car train: $208/hour
3-car train: $257/hour

So, only against a 1-car train do buses stand a chance of competing. Against even a 2-car train the train comes out ahead since $208/hour is close to the cost of operating two standard buses but the capacity of 2-car train is much greater than that of two buses. And, indeed, the background documents of the N-S LRT business case came to the conclusion that a 2-car train had an operating cost of 83% of that of an equivalent bus-based service. As labour costs rise (for operators and mechanics) and since the cost of diesel will rise more than that of electricity, these numbers will increasingly favour rail as time goes on.
Wow. If you are right, why hasn't it been corrected? Why haven't you convinced the city the Delcan report is wrong? Why can't you make the numbers work?

The statement about bus cost includes feeder buses whereas LRT cost doesn't. You need to compare BRT-only costs to LRT and even that may be unfair given that local buses use the transitway in our system, it's not even a trunk and feeder system. Probably, in a trunk and feeder system, the trunk section of BRT (equivalent to LRT) would come our cheaper as was concluded in: http://vancouver.ca/engsvcs/transport/rto/ubcline/previous.htm

Why can't we use(aren't we using) trolleybuses along the transitway?
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  #2189  
Old Posted Jul 3, 2009, 1:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Franky View Post
Wow. If you are right, why hasn't it been corrected? Why haven't you convinced the city the Delcan report is wrong? Why can't you make the numbers work?


Why can't we use(aren't we using) trolleybuses along the transitway?
Laval will be implementing a Vancouver style busway with trolleybuses in 2010. All paid by Hydro-Québec. It will be interesting to see.

And thanks Dado for the clarification! It's much appreciated.
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  #2190  
Old Posted Jul 3, 2009, 2:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dado View Post
The page you cite above is pretty clear on the matter of what the $172/hour represents: back when it was written they said it cost $163 per hour to operate LRT and then they go on to say in the next sentence that "With an average of 600 boarding passengers per operating hour the average cost per LRT passenger is only $0.27 ($0.23 USD)." The stat of 600 boarding passengers can only come from an entire 3-car train (there's little en-route passenger turnover in Calgary) and one can only get a per passenger cost of $0.27 from the given data by dividing 600 into $163 [($163/hour) / (600 passengers/hour) = $0.27/passenger - the 'hour' terms drop out of the division by cancellation]. Of course that low per passenger cost only occurs at peak periods but the point of the foregoing was to show that the $163/$172 represents the per train and not the per car cost.
Dado, you are wrong about "The stat of 600 boarding passengers can only come from an entire 3-car train". A single car will carry 600 passengers over the HOUR, otherwise it would take something like an HOUR to do the 8 km or so of the average trip!!! This says the average speed is 30 km/h http://www.calgarytransit.com/html/technical_information.html So that's about 160 per car if 8 km average trip distance, exactly what a single car holds.
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  #2191  
Old Posted Jul 3, 2009, 3:35 PM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is offline
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^ Franky, in Calgary half of every trip the line is empty. There is very little back haul. If my memory serves me a complete trip on the NW-S line is around 54 minutes, plus turn around time of whatever the headway is.
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  #2192  
Old Posted Jul 3, 2009, 5:45 PM
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^ Franky, in Calgary half of every trip the line is empty. There is very little back haul. If my memory serves me a complete trip on the NW-S line is around 54 minutes, plus turn around time of whatever the headway is.
Crush load is 256, so a single car can average 160 over it's journey. That example doesn't encompass all operating scenarios it's the longest line. It would seem silly to run trains the whole length for such paltry boardings. I would also expect some short-run trains to be in the mix, for example on the 2 km city link. So "The stat of 600 boarding passengers can only come from an entire 3-car train" isn't right.
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  #2193  
Old Posted Jul 3, 2009, 6:00 PM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is offline
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^ A very high percentage of Calgary riders only travel to and from downtown. There are no short turn runs that improve back haul efficiency (nor could there be). There are no free fare only trains (that would significantly reduce capacity on the outer lines) which I assume you meant by the 'city link'? It isn't silly to run the train for such paltry boardings, if the distance covered is needed to pick up and deliver people from their destinations. I would say the categorization of paltry is wrong. Especially when the train covers its costs.

Getting to 600 per car per hour would have full turn over 3 times in an hour, when in each hour downtown is only reached inbound or outbound once.
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  #2194  
Old Posted Jul 3, 2009, 6:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby View Post
^ A very high percentage of Calgary riders only travel to and from downtown. There are no short turn runs that improve back haul efficiency (nor could there be). There are no free fare only trains (that would significantly reduce capacity on the outer lines) which I assume you meant by the 'city link'? It isn't silly to run the train for such paltry boardings, if the distance covered is needed to pick up and deliver people from their destinations. I would say the categorization of paltry is wrong. Especially when the train covers its costs.

Getting to 600 per car per hour would have full turn over 3 times in an hour, when in each hour downtown is only reached inbound or outbound once.
Yes, but there are short trips (from one DT station to another for example) that can make up for the longer suburban trips. Bottom line, it's not the only way to get those numbers.

I've sent an e-mail to Calgary Transit to try and get a straight answer.
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  #2195  
Old Posted Jul 3, 2009, 10:01 PM
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Dado, you are wrong about "The stat of 600 boarding passengers can only come from an entire 3-car train". A single car will carry 600 passengers over the HOUR, otherwise it would take something like an HOUR to do the 8 km or so of the average trip!!! This says the average speed is 30 km/h http://www.calgarytransit.com/html/technical_information.html So that's about 160 per car if 8 km average trip distance, exactly what a single car holds.
Where are you getting this 8 km from?

Let's take the S-NW line as it was at the time that page was written. It went from Somerset-Bridlewood in the South to Dalhousie in the NW. According to the information on the LRT in Calgary website, Dalhousie is 11.0 km from the City Centre station and Somerset-Bridlewood is 16.9 km, for a route total of 27.9 km. Given the average operating speed of 30 km, this is covered in a little under an hour, and with a turnaround the route takes an hour. However many people get on in the inbound journey is basically what the train will carry that hour.

What of the NE line? At that time it went from Whitehorn in the NE some 9.8 km from the City Centre station to the 10th Street West station 1.6 km past the City Centre station, for a total route length of 11.4 km. Of course, the train has to return to the beginning of the line to do another run (whereas the S-NW trains just go to the other end) so the actual effective length is 22.8 km with two turnarounds (and two, not one, passage of the 7th Street transit mall). So it's somewhat shorter than the S-NW line, but not a lot, and if there is some degree of turnover systemwide it'll compensate for the relative shortness of the NE line. During peak periods, you're just not going to get much in the way of reverse flow or turnover to lead to a situation of 600 boarding passengers per hour per car. It's just not possible. You do get turnover during off peak hours - but then the trains aren't full either (except during Stampede and game nights...). Besides that, the same document included the $1.50/passenger stat for buses. Given that the overall system costs $2.26/passenger then that $1.50 stat must be referring to full buses so as to compare to a full train. It all makes sense when you look at everything together. To top it off, the page you linked even has the following entry:

Weekday boarding passengers per revenue operating hour: 611

So there you go.
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  #2196  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2009, 1:27 PM
Suzie Suzie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dado View Post
That's $172 per hour per 3-car TRAIN* - NOT per single LRT car. That's the big mistake that the consultants made in estimating future operating costs for LRT. It's a great big gaping mistake so large the O-Train could be driven through it because it overstates LRT operating costs by more than threefold [the $172 has 4 basic cost components: 3 identical ones for each car (mainly electricity and maintenance) and a per train component (basically the operator) so using the $172 as it was used isn't just 3 times wrong it's more wrong still because it's also adding in the full per train component to each car -- so taking account of this last point and calculating for only 3-car trains it means that the $434M annual operating cost of Option #4 is in fact below $380M compared to the $485M of Option #1 - nothing like a $50M+ error on something as insignificant as annual operating costs...]. The page you cite above is pretty clear on the matter of what the $172/hour represents: back when it was written they said it cost $163 per hour to operate LRT and then they go on to say in the next sentence that "With an average of 600 boarding passengers per operating hour the average cost per LRT passenger is only $0.27 ($0.23 USD)." The stat of 600 boarding passengers can only come from an entire 3-car train (there's little en-route passenger turnover in Calgary) and one can only get a per passenger cost of $0.27 from the given data by dividing 600 into $163 [($163/hour) / (600 passengers/hour) = $0.27/passenger - the 'hour' terms drop out of the division by cancellation]. Of course that low per passenger cost only occurs at peak periods but the point of the foregoing was to show that the $163/$172 represents the per train and not the per car cost.

They then go on to say: "In comparison, the average for bus passenger boardings is approximately $1.50 ($1.28 USD) or almost 6 times the cost of
carrying an LRT passenger."

Ottawa's average annual per passenger cost was $2.69 in 2007. I would guess that the $1.50 figure for Calgary assumes full buses (makes sense to compare to a full CTrain) because Calgary's systemwide average annual per passenger cost was $2.26 in 2005 (Ottawa's was $2.54 that year). In the time since 2005 Calgary has had significant ridership gains so it's per passenger cost almost certainly went down whereas ours continued to go up even as ridership increased.

Finally, they conclude that paragraph with these words of wisdom: "Of course buses have considerably lower capital cost and have different capabilities."

And that is our problem. Ottawa seems to think that buses can do everything everywhere and always rather than recognizing the different capabilities and uses of different modes. The very existence of Options #1 and #2 in the TMP update presented earnestly in the documentation as if they were viable (14 second headways vs 16 second headways! yippee!) was a clear demonstration of that thought process.


*There is a discrepancy between the $163/hour figure in the Calgary Transit document (along with the $172/hour figure used by Delcan) and the calculated $257/hour figure using data from the Calgary Transit website. If one takes only marginal costs (vehicle maintenance, power, wages) from the website into the calculation then the cost would be $194/hour - closer, but not close enough. I can't resolve this discrepancy to any satisfaction - but whichever is the case it is still a per *TRAIN* cost, not a per LRT car cost and therefore the conclusion that the City's consultants have vastly overestimated LRT operating costs still remains.

To follow on from the chart in the Appleby's post using the derived figures:

1-car train: $159/hour
2-car train: $208/hour
3-car train: $257/hour

So, only against a 1-car train do buses stand a chance of competing. Against even a 2-car train the train comes out ahead since $208/hour is close to the cost of operating two standard buses but the capacity of 2-car train is much greater than that of two buses. And, indeed, the background documents of the N-S LRT business case came to the conclusion that a 2-car train had an operating cost of 83% of that of an equivalent bus-based service. As labour costs rise (for operators and mechanics) and since the cost of diesel will rise more than that of electricity, these numbers will increasingly favour rail as time goes on.
I find it hard to believe that the cost is $172 per train-hour. That works out to $57 per car-hour. The cost per car-hour for the Skytrain in Vancouver, an automated system with smaller vehicles, is $85 (the Skytrain has total operating costs of $83M per year / 940,000 car-hours per year / boardings of 73,000,000 per year / 78 boardings per car-hour). Even the $257 per train-hour estimate seems low, since it would imply the same car-hour costs as the Skytrain. I know Translink is not the most efficient organization in the world but still.

I’ve nonetheless used Appleby’s figures to see what the results would be. Under all scenarios, peak bus costs were reduced by 10% to take into account the use of “trunk expresses”. This gave an annual cost for the bus option of $99M (this total reflects the costs within the Blair-Baseline and N/S corridors, and thus excludes the cost of the rest of the network – these costs should be fairly similar under both the bus and LRT options).

Scenario 1: Under the first scenario, I assumed that all trains (i.e., both peak and off-peak) on the East-West Line would be 4-cars long while all those on the N/S line would be 2-cars long. The results were as follows:
• Scenario 1a: With the amount of annual LRT service assumed in the MRC/Delcan report (474,000 car-hours), annual operating costs would be $38M. Thus, this yielded annual savings of $61M. This would result in off-peak headways that are 6.7 times higher than for bus.
• Scenario 1b: If off-peak service levels were doubled, the amount of annual LRT service would grow to 692,000 car-hours and annual operating costs would amount to $56M. Thus, annual savings would be $44M. This would result in off-peak headways that are 3.4 times higher than bus.
• Scenario 1c: If off-peak service levels were tripled, the amount of annual LRT service would grow to 910,000 car-hours and annual operating costs would amount to $73M. Thus, the annual savings would be $26M. This would result in off-peak headways that are 2.2 times higher than bus.

Scenario 2: Under the second scenario, I assumed that peak train lengths would be 4-cars on the East-West Line and 2-cars on the N/S line, while off-peak service would be provided by 2-car and 1-car trains, respectively. The total amount of annual LRT service (measured in car-hours, not train-hours) would remain the same as in the MRC/Delcan report (i.e., 474,000 car-hours). This would have annual operating costs of $45M or $54M less than the bus option. Off-peak frequencies would be 3.4 times higher than the bus option.

Scenario 3: Under the third scenario, I assumed that peak train lengths would be 4-cars on the East-West Line and 2-cars on the N/S line, while off-peak service would be provided by 1-car trains on both lines. The total amount of annual LRT service (measured in car-hours, not train-hours) would remain the same as in the MRC/Delcan report (i.e., 474,000 car-hours). This would have annual operating costs of $55M or $44M less than the bus option. Off-peak frequencies would be 1.9 times higher than the bus option.

Scenario 4: The fourth scenario is the same as the third one, except that off-peak frequencies for the LRT would be the same as for the bus option. The total amount of annual LRT service (measured in car-hours, not train-hours) would grow to 676,000 car-hours. This would have annual operating costs of $87M or $12M less than the bus option.

If Appleby’s cost figures are reflective of what can be achieved in Ottawa, then I will admit that I was wrong in my previous post. An LRT option will have lower operating costs than a “best bus” option under all scenarios. If ridership continued to increase, and peak East-West trains became 6-car trains and the peak N/S trains were truncated at Bayview, the savings would grow over time.

In terms of which scenario would be the likeliest, I’m not sure. Scenario 1a is really terrible, but it would be attractive to a transit authority that is fixated on minimizing operating costs. I also think that pursuing scenario 1b or scenario 2 would still not be acceptable and lead to pressure to go with a scenario 1c or a scenario 3. Scenario 3 would much more attractive from a financial perspective, but for some reason Calgary does not pursue such a strategy (i.e., running shorter, more frequent trains during the off-peak period). There must be a reason why. Sadly, I don’t think that scenario 4 is likely at all.

Irrespective of the scenario, one would need to compare the savings in operating costs of the LRT option with the increase in user costs due to longer waits, slower travel times and the increase in transfers. A back-of-the-envelope calculation suggests the increase in user costs due longer waits and slower travel times would cancel at least half of the savings under scenario 3. Differences in capital costs and external benefits (e.g., the bus option should have higher ridership because of lower in-vehicle and out-of-vehicle travel times) would also need to be considered.
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Old Posted Jul 4, 2009, 2:01 PM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is offline
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It depends if you care about riders in your model. I know my transportation economics teacher said while user time on the system (including waiting time) may be valuable for somethings like determining ridership of non-captive riders, assigning monetary value to user time is a fools game since you can change the value to favour your preferred outcome. (and why bother, when in our gut we all know wait times north of 15 minutes are unacceptable)

Calgary may have avoided your 'option three' for many years since there was never enough yard space for trains. Just recently they started to run only two car trains on Sundays, more to free up a larger part of the fleet for maintenance than save on marginal 1+LRV costs.

Calgary also has a manual coupling and decoupling system, and mostly manual switches in our legacy yards (not sure about our new one). It is possible the extra labour to split up trains was never budgeted for, or the labour would only be useful for a couple hours a day and Calgary has a labour shortage.

Saving $44 million a year in operational cost is nothing to sneeze at, since we have to remember the payoff is only being applied to 1/3 of the capital cost. For 30 years of payoff you end up with just north of $1.3 billion - so if Ottawa could secure $2.6 billion from other levels of government it would make sense to spend $3.9 billion. (spending anything less than that is still a gain from the city's eyes, but of course the extra money should go to further expansion to further reduce operating costs, instead of increased feeder bus service)
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Old Posted Jul 4, 2009, 2:03 PM
p_xavier p_xavier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suzie View Post
I find it hard to believe that the cost is $172 per train-hour. That works out to $57 per car-hour. The cost per car-hour for the Skytrain in Vancouver, an automated system with smaller vehicles, is $85 (the Skytrain has total operating costs of $83M per year / 940,000 car-hours per year / boardings of 73,000,000 per year / 78 boardings per car-hour). Even the $257 per train-hour estimate seems low, since it would imply the same car-hour costs as the Skytrain. I know Translink is not the most efficient organization in the world but still.
Vancouver operating costs are high because of the elevated railway maintenance costs, which wouldn't be an issue for Ottawa if automated operation is implemented since there are basically no elevated guideways. For exact numbers, you can find them in the Evergreen Line document and transit experts peer review for Ottawa. That is the main reason why the new lines are basically at grade or underground.
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  #2199  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2009, 6:55 PM
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waterloowarrior waterloowarrior is offline
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Residents looking for benefit of transitway extension
New corridor to improve commute for west end residents
July 03, 2009
BY JENNIFER MCINTOSH
http://www.yourkanata.com/KanataKourier/article/KanataKourier/news/article/14428

Noise and the preservation of their neighbourhood were some of the key concerns of residents attending a packed and hot information session held by the city at Maki House on June 25. Residents came out in the pre-thunderstorm humidity to ensure they could be a part of the consultation process for the west Transitway extension.
Many aspects of the plan have been designed and city staff is hoping to have a shovel in the ground as early as 2010.

The first part of the extension would see the transit corridor run on the north side of Hwy 417 and end just east of Moodie Drive where there would be a transit station or bus-changing area. From there the buses would connect to the bus-only lanes on Hwy. 417 from Moodie to Eagleson Road. The section is a missing link between two completed pieces of the Transitway.

“I am here looking for figures and concrete data,” resident Ian McConnachie said. “They keep saying times savings, but for whom and exactly how much time?”

McConnachie added that with concrete numbers he felt the community could make a better informed decision about whether a potentially noisy and disruptive corridor is necessary or whether it could be handled with route changes.

Lakeview resident, Michele McLean said she had only heard about the open house on June 25 and that she wanted to see the community as engaged with that project as they were with the Moodie bridge.

“I am concerned that they are going to disturb a narrow strip of greenbelt on the north side when they could build it on the south side of the Queensway and use some of the farm land,” she said.

Bay Coun. Alex Cullen said the move would be too expensive and the bike path and creek on the north side would be moved.

“We are definitely keeping the bike path,” he said.

Another resident, who wished only to be referred to as Scott, said that there is a general distrust among residents about anything from the municipal government.

“It’s another case where residents’ property values are going to suffer to get people out to the downtown core,” he said.

Cullen said that the extension is going to improve times westward and eastward and is an essential part of a new transit plan.

“It really benefits commuters from Kanata, not really Crystal Beach residents,” he said. “But they will have access to a new station on Moodie Drive.”

Cullen also added that the city will put noise barriers along the transit way to help alleviate some of the concerns about noise.
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  #2200  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2009, 7:06 PM
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waterloowarrior waterloowarrior is offline
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