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  #2161  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2009, 11:19 AM
p_xavier p_xavier is offline
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Originally Posted by Franky View Post
I'm not sure how you do your math, but transit systems don't even cover their O&M costs.

Operational savings compared to what? Compared to automobiles which in Ontario cover their costs?
Compared to a 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 BRT or bus system.
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  #2162  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2009, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Hmmm, $50M equals 500 bus operator jobs eliminated assuming $100K per driver per year. Can we realistically eliminate that many jobs as a result of opening a Tunney's/Blair LRT line? I would be shocked to say the least.
You know, there is something called electricity, that costs less than Diesel. So about 20M$ in operator savings and the rest in energy savings would be more realistic. Also the salaries increase every year, with an automatic system, your operational costs don't add on as fast. So in 20 years, it may be 100M$ savings a year.
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  #2163  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2009, 11:39 AM
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Bus drivers make 100k? Gosh, I should get a job at OC Transpo.

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  #2164  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2009, 11:48 AM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is offline
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TTC average is about 90k, so I wouldn't be surprised.
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  #2165  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2009, 1:13 PM
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Interesting link from Vancouver about the rapid transit extension to UBC. Compares rapid bus with LRT with a combo of rapid bus and Skytrain. http://vancouver.ca/engsvcs/transport/rto/ubcline/previous.htm . What the analysis states is that Rapidbus (enhanced electric trolley buses) has the lowest capital cost and lowest operating cost. It further states that costs of using diesel buses would be lower yet again. LRT has the highest operating cost! It appears that any savings on using the Skytrain combo is due to the fact that part of the route is served by a rapidbus system. So where is the claimed operational savings? Given the fact that you will be saving on operators (which is a significant cost), the additional cost of running and maintaining trains outstrips the savings from having fewer operators. At least, this is what this study suggests.

In another study that compared LRT and Skytrain for the Evergreen line, the operational savings because of no operators made the additional cost of building the Skytrain attractive. But that was comparing one type of electric train with another.
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  #2166  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2009, 1:41 PM
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Wow.

Roads are not subsidized in Ontario, drivers pay as much as they get, but the distribution is not fair. Cities must pay, provinces make money. This inequity does need to be addressed, but it's unfair to say drivers don't pay their share.

Operational cost of buses compared to rail is about the same when you consider Double-deck buses running on the transitway. To lump in regional bus costs is an apple to oranges comparison, LRT vs. collector bus, not BRT vs. LRT. Running large empty trains at off-peak times is not energy efficient.

I would prefer to see electrified transportation of course from a GHG perspective, but given the difference in cost, placing that money into other GHG reduction measures (such as planting trees or buying hybrid collector buses) would see greater reductions in GHG.
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  #2167  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2009, 2:02 PM
p_xavier p_xavier is offline
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Originally Posted by Franky View Post
Wow.

Roads are not subsidized in Ontario, drivers pay as much as they get, but the distribution is not fair. Cities must pay, provinces make money. This inequity does need to be addressed, but it's unfair to say drivers don't pay their share.

Operational cost of buses compared to rail is about the same when you consider Double-deck buses running on the transitway. To lump in regional bus costs is an apple to oranges comparison, LRT vs. collector bus, not BRT vs. LRT. Running large empty trains at off-peak times is not energy efficient.

I would prefer to see electrified transportation of course from a GHG perspective, but given the difference in cost, placing that money into other GHG reduction measures (such as planting trees or buying hybrid collector buses) would see greater reductions in GHG.
Of course 180m with maybe automatic trains compare negatively with double deckers buses, come on! Stop arguing for the sake of arguing, it pisses me off. The thing with trains is to wait until it is nearly full, so 10 minutes headways is the norm, if not 15 minutes. I'm not talking if it's a good thing or not, I'm talking numbers here.
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  #2168  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2009, 2:05 PM
p_xavier p_xavier is offline
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Interesting link from Vancouver about the rapid transit extension to UBC. Compares rapid bus with LRT with a combo of rapid bus and Skytrain. http://vancouver.ca/engsvcs/transport/rto/ubcline/previous.htm . What the analysis states is that Rapidbus (enhanced electric trolley buses) has the lowest capital cost and lowest operating cost. It further states that costs of using diesel buses would be lower yet again. LRT has the highest operating cost! It appears that any savings on using the Skytrain combo is due to the fact that part of the route is served by a rapidbus system. So where is the claimed operational savings? Given the fact that you will be saving on operators (which is a significant cost), the additional cost of running and maintaining trains outstrips the savings from having fewer operators. At least, this is what this study suggests.

In another study that compared LRT and Skytrain for the Evergreen line, the operational savings because of no operators made the additional cost of building the Skytrain attractive. But that was comparing one type of electric train with another.
You are right about that, since you need to offer the bus service to the clientele. Which is the principal reason that the rapid transit plan in Ottawa will be a costly mess. You don't do two kind or rapid transit, it adds to the costs tremendously. Money wise, a train to the suburbs every ten minutes would have been a better choice than building Transitway to the suburbs.

The RapidBus in Vancouver is nowhere what it is in Gatineau or Ottawa, it is basically on-street BRT. It also show that their RapidBus wouldn't bring much ridership compared to the other two, and again, it's a time-limited solution.

What I'm suprised, is the low (relative) cost of the underground SkyTrain compared to on-street LRT.
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  #2169  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2009, 2:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby View Post
TTC average is about 90k, so I wouldn't be surprised.
This is why I find it laughable when the best examples of BRT pointed out are in Brazil and elswhere in South America where the average salaries of bus drivers are less than $10k.

source
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  #2170  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2009, 3:09 PM
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Money wise, a train to the suburbs every ten minutes would have been a better choice than building Transitway to the suburbs.
Is this the commuter trains that you have talked about in the past using existing rail lines? If so, it will never happen, not with that frequency, which is not normal for heavy rail commuter trains. Without returning Union Station back to its original purpose, this will not benefit suburban commuters and the chances of reintroducing heavy rail into downtown Ottawa is zero. I do agree that the money being spent to extend Transitways will be better spent on extending rail further to the suburbs sooner.
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  #2171  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2009, 3:19 PM
p_xavier p_xavier is offline
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Is this the commuter trains that you have talked about in the past using existing rail lines? If so, it will never happen, not with that frequency, which is not normal for heavy rail commuter trains. Without returning Union Station back to its original purpose, this will not benefit suburban commuters and the chances of reintroducing heavy rail into downtown Ottawa is zero. I do agree that the money being spent to extend Transitways will be better spent on extending rail further to the suburbs sooner.
No it is not. It is extending the "metro" to the suburbs, while trying to put more people on the trains and have a reasonable expection of service (10-15 minutes), and not 2.
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  #2172  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2009, 3:53 PM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Interesting link from Vancouver about the rapid transit extension to UBC. Compares rapid bus with LRT with a combo of rapid bus and Skytrain. http://vancouver.ca/engsvcs/transport/rto/ubcline/previous.htm . What the analysis states is that Rapidbus (enhanced electric trolley buses) has the lowest capital cost and lowest operating cost. It further states that costs of using diesel buses would be lower yet again. LRT has the highest operating cost! It appears that any savings on using the Skytrain combo is due to the fact that part of the route is served by a rapidbus system. So where is the claimed operational savings?
Take a look at the report closely. The operating costs are given as the total annual operating costs. Then look at the annual ridership. The Rapidbus-only option has the lowest ridership. Fewer riders means fewer buses and operators, leading to lower total operating costs. But if you compare on a per rider basis, there isn't much between them.

I also read the report (from 1999 btw) to find out where the LRT operating costs were coming from. It turns out it was Calgary but just like our consultants did last April they made a mistake when comparing it to other modes. Calgary uses a cost per operating hour of its trains to maintain comparability to other modes but the favoured measure is per service km and it looks like this conversion and how it was applied was the source of problem. I back-calculated the annual service km from the data in that report and found that it worked out to something like 3/4 of the total of that of Calgary's entire CTrain system (~45 km) just for this 13.4 km stretch of track on Broadway. It works out to about 2.5 times the frequency to serve half the daily ridership. That's just not believable. In other words, the LRT operating cost is vastly overstated in this report because these trains would be apparently doing far more mileage than necessary. That might also affect the capital costs since the vehicles are included in there.

Reading the breakdown of the capital costs is interesting and it explains why the SkyTrain comes out seemingly ahead. For one, the SkyTrain would not be built to the full length of the corridor. The maximum SkyTrain option was 5.4 km vs 13.4 km for LRT. The SkyTrain cost component for that option was $127.7M/km vs $59.9M/km for LRT and the shorter extension options were more expensive still. The rest of the corridor for the SkyTrain options was made up by Rapidbus, which was just taking over lanes. For another, a SkyTrain extension would leverage the existing SkyTrain infrastructure, so the costs for things like maintenance facilities, power supply/distribution and signalling/control were minimal. Some of the other high LRT costs were from utility relocations and street construction.

In short, there really isn't anything in that report that can easily be transferred to Ottawa where we have corridors available to us for the most part and where we don't have existing SkyTrain-type infrastructure to be leveraged.
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  #2173  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2009, 6:10 PM
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No it is not. It is extending the "metro" to the suburbs, while trying to put more people on the trains and have a reasonable expection of service (10-15 minutes), and not 2.
I brought this up because your earlier position advocated only commuter trains for the suburbs. We are getting a little closer together in our thinking it seems.
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  #2174  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2009, 6:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
Take a look at the report closely. The operating costs are given as the total annual operating costs. Then look at the annual ridership. The Rapidbus-only option has the lowest ridership. Fewer riders means fewer buses and operators, leading to lower total operating costs. But if you compare on a per rider basis, there isn't much between them.

I also read the report (from 1999 btw) to find out where the LRT operating costs were coming from. It turns out it was Calgary but just like our consultants did last April they made a mistake when comparing it to other modes. Calgary uses a cost per operating hour of its trains to maintain comparability to other modes but the favoured measure is per service km and it looks like this conversion and how it was applied was the source of problem. I back-calculated the annual service km from the data in that report and found that it worked out to something like 3/4 of the total of that of Calgary's entire CTrain system (~45 km) just for this 13.4 km stretch of track on Broadway. It works out to about 2.5 times the frequency to serve half the daily ridership. That's just not believable. In other words, the LRT operating cost is vastly overstated in this report because these trains would be apparently doing far more mileage than necessary. That might also affect the capital costs since the vehicles are included in there.

Reading the breakdown of the capital costs is interesting and it explains why the SkyTrain comes out seemingly ahead. For one, the SkyTrain would not be built to the full length of the corridor. The maximum SkyTrain option was 5.4 km vs 13.4 km for LRT. The SkyTrain cost component for that option was $127.7M/km vs $59.9M/km for LRT and the shorter extension options were more expensive still. The rest of the corridor for the SkyTrain options was made up by Rapidbus, which was just taking over lanes. For another, a SkyTrain extension would leverage the existing SkyTrain infrastructure, so the costs for things like maintenance facilities, power supply/distribution and signalling/control were minimal. Some of the other high LRT costs were from utility relocations and street construction.

In short, there really isn't anything in that report that can easily be transferred to Ottawa where we have corridors available to us for the most part and where we don't have existing SkyTrain-type infrastructure to be leveraged.
You might be right that there is little relavence to Ottawa's situation but claims were being made that enormous operational cost savings are possible and that was my sole purpose of presenting it. When you consider that there is a fixed number of taxpayers and taxpayers will be paying a good portion of total operating costs, this is an important consideration that needs to be considered separate from the number of riders. If total operating costs go up, our taxes go up. It doesn't matter from that perspective how many riders there will be. This is called affordability. Sure, if transit riders pay 100% of the cost, then cost per rider would be much more important, but that is not the case. So the taxpayer has to be considered in this cost analyis process. If we can't afford a system that costs $150M per year, but we can afford something at $75M per year, guess which we will choose?

You do make a very valid point about some of the computational errors and bogus logic that is used in some of these reports. These are very expensive reports and to make some fundamental mistakes that is impacting decisions on enormously expensive civic projects is more than disturbing.
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  #2175  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2009, 7:04 PM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
You do make a very valid point about some of the computational errors and bogus logic that is used in some of these reports. These are very expensive reports and to make some fundamental mistakes that is impacting decisions on enormously expensive civic projects is more than disturbing.
If it really is an error. I would expect all staff expect to be paid whether the trains are moving or not.
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  #2176  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2009, 7:52 PM
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I brought this up because your earlier position advocated only commuter trains for the suburbs. We are getting a little closer together in our thinking it seems.
Well my metro plan always included the suburbs? The commuter train was to be set up nearly immediately, as it is taking 20 years to get things going for the metro version. That was the only reason.

The TMP may not have the suburbs right now, but the plan is to be updated in 4 years. We all know what happened to the previous version of the plan anyways, so there is still hope.

Clive and Christine's plan was almost perfect IMO.
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  #2177  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2009, 11:29 PM
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Clive and Christine's plan was almost perfect IMO.
As LRT plans go, I would agree.
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  #2178  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2009, 4:13 PM
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This is a long post, but it needs to be to address the operating cost issue in a comprehensive manner. Please bear with me.

If one assumes realistic headways, there is no operating cost advantage for LRT in Ottawa. Let’s use the MRC/Delcan report (page F-44) as a starting point.

The report used costs of $105 per hour for standard buses, $115 per hour for articulated buses and $172 per hour for LRT cars. A couple of observations:

• The first two are based on current bus costs in Ottawa. Thus, they do not assume any effort on the part of transit operators to bring down their labour costs to levels seen in the rest of the bus industry in Canada (e.g., inter-city operators such as Greyhound). Any such effort would make buses more cost competitive. They also bear absolutely no relationship to bus costs in South America.

• The LRT costs are based on Calgary. They seem consistent with the operating cost per vehicle hour numbers that Calgary has made public (e.g., see bottom paragraph in page 14 of http://www.calgarytransit.com/pdf/Calgary_CTrain_Effective_Capital_Utilization.pdf). As others have noted, they are based on 3-car trains. In my view, this would be quite close to costs during the first years of a built-out LRT system in Ottawa, which would be a mix of 4-car trains (Blair to Baseline) and 2-car trains (N/S Line). Moreover, I hope that Ottawa would not skip on things like air conditioning. So $172 per hour per LRT car is a good ballpark estimate.

Using these parameters, the MRC/Delcan Report calculated that the rail option would save $51.6M per year in operating costs in 2031 (i.e., $485.4M per year (bus option) minus $433.8M per year (rail option) – note: these are cost totals for the transit system as a whole, including local routes and feeders). Although not explicitly stated, this assumed that frequencies would be much lower for rail. Assuming an average train length of 3-cars, the frequencies would be 7 times lower for rail.

Frequencies that are 7 times lower than bus would be acceptable during the peak period. With peak bus headways of 18 seconds, this would give rail headways of about 2 minutes. No issue here.

However, frequencies that are 7 times lower than bus would not be acceptable during the off-peak period. With off-peak bus headways of 3 minutes (a realistic average for the entire off-peak period), this would give rail headways of 21 minutes. This is not acceptable, especially for the Blair to Baseline segment, which is the core of the network. Remember, 1 minute of wait time is equivalent to 3 minutes of in-vehicle time so a substantial decline in ridership would ensue with such headways. Let’s be very, very generous towards the LRT option and assume that off-peak frequencies for the option would only need to double to become acceptable. Under such a scenario, the LRT option would still compare very poorly to the bus option in terms of wait times due to headways of 10 minutes versus 3 minutes for bus. In my humble opinion, a tripling of LRT frequencies to get headways of 7 minutes would be needed for the service to become acceptable. Even in that case, the bus option would remain much more attractive.

With a doubling of off-peak frequencies for the LRT, its operating cost advantage over bus would dwindle to a mere $14M per year. With a tripling of off-peak frequencies for the LRT, its operating costs would exceed that of the bus option by $23M per year.

Wait, there’s more. The MRC/Delcan report assumed that buses would be operated exactly like trains in that they would stop at every station (i.e., both options would have the same average speed). Hence, no effort was made to take advantage of the operational flexibilities of buses. It is really strange for consultants with a purported BRT bias to make such an assumption. Anyways, a substantial portion of peak period traffic would be carried by “trunk expresses” (to borrow Dado’s term). These services would only stop at a select number of stations within the Greenbelt – along the Blair to Baseline and N/S corridors, they may only stop at Blair, South Keys and/or Greenboro, Hurdman (depending on demand patterns, Hurdman could be skipped), Rideau Centre, two stops downtown (east and central portions), Tunney’s Pasture, Lincoln Fields and Baseline. Overall, the trunk expresses would skip about 60% of all of the stations within the Greenbelt. This would lead to substantial increases in average speed and productivity, thus reducing operating costs further and probably tipping the scale in favour of the bus option.

Not being entirely comfortable with the MRC/Delcan methodology on page F-44 (e.g., its bus option actually provides 13% more transit capacity than the rail option, which is very strange), I developed my own simplified cost model to compare a bus option (using 100% high-capacity, articulated buses) with an LRT option (average of 3-car trains). The results were consistent with those above. Capacity-wise, 1 train can carry roughly the same amount of people as 6 articulated buses. Thus, running trains at frequencies that are 6 times lower than bus would provide the same overall capacity. Under a scenario with LRT frequencies being 6 times lower than bus frequencies at all times, the LRT option was found to be 22% cheaper in terms of operating costs than the bus option. However, the following adjustments should be made:

• Off-peak frequencies for the LRT option are doubled to achieve headways that are “only” 3 times higher (i.e., worse) than the bus option (e.g., off-peak headways of 9 minutes for LRT versus 3 minutes for bus).
• Peak period operating costs for the bus option are reduced by 10% to take into account the extensive use of fast “trunk expresses” that would skip most stations within the Greenbelt and serve only the busiest stations.

With these two adjustments, the bus option ends up with operating costs that are 16% less than the LRT option.

As an aside, I also used the simplified cost model to do a comparison with a Skytrain option (i.e., automated trains), which would provide much better frequencies than LRT. However, I have grave doubts about the reliability of such a system in Ottawa’s harsh winter climate and it would require complete grade separation with its higher capital costs, its barrier effects and/or the ugliness of large elevated guideways. Using Mark I cars (which have about the same capacity as an articulated bus, albeit with many fewer seats and many more standees) with operating costs of $80 per vehicle hour, the Skytrain option was found to have operating costs that are 26% less than the bus option. On an annual basis, savings in operating costs were between $25M and $30M. Better than nothing, but not a huge amount. Perhaps, the use of the latest Mark II cars would increase the amount of the savings, albeit at the further cost of passenger comfort (the scarcity of seats means that, at capacity, 75% of the people in the vehicles would be forced to stand) .

Back to the LRT. I’m sure people will point out the City’s intension to eventually run 6-car trains along the Blair to Baseline segment. Yes, this would reduce operating costs per hour for each LRT car. However, it would further aggravate the disparity in frequencies and the cost of addressing this disparity during the off-peak period.

So the bottom line is this. At least in the case of Ottawa, claims that the LRT would result in large savings in operating costs over a “best bus” option is predicated on extremely poor headways during the off-peak period. Basically, savings in operating costs are obtained by dramatically increasing wait times and thus user costs (i.e., savings in one kind of cost result in increases in another). Since an extra minute of wait time is equivalent to an extra three minutes of in-vehicle time, I suspect that a social cost-benefit analysis would confirm that the frequencies are indeed too low for the LRT option and would need to be increased substantially. Moreover, pressure from users to provide acceptable headways would be expected. Savings in operating costs would disappear. The “trunk expresses” would further tip the scale in favour of the bus option. Thus, a “best bus” option would have lower operating costs than the LRT option. This would add to the other advantages of the bus option:

• Lower capital costs.
• Much higher ridership (due to less waiting time, faster rides on “trunk expresses”, fewer transfers, more seats, more direct routes, better integration with Rapibus, etc.).
• Less disruption during construction.

Also, as I have noted before, a well-designed “best bus” option would provide sufficient capacity to meet Ottawa’s long-term needs.

None of the claimed benefits of the LRT option (i.e., higher ridership, lower operating costs, greater environmental benefits, etc.) stand up to scrutiny.
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  #2179  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2009, 4:41 PM
Suzie Suzie is offline
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from: http://www.flickr.com/photos/99887786@N00/107068591/

What is best for Ottawa? I have no idea. But to be honest after riding the TransMilenio, I can't really call many other "BRTs" in North America full-featured BRTs.
Hi adrimm, welcome onboard.

What was your experience riding TransMilenio? From what I’ve read, it seems like a much better system than Ottawa’s (albeit much more crowded). However, I’ve never actually had the chance to ride it. It would be nice to hear from someone who has experienced it firsthand.

Unfortunately, when it compared rail and bus options, the City Ottawa did not consider a TransMilenio option. The bus option that it developed (essentially the status quo with a downtown tunnel) was found to provide insufficient capacity and have higher operating costs. I suspect that a TransMilenio option for Ottawa would have addressed both concerns and provided additional benefits.
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  #2180  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2009, 7:14 PM
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Also, as I have noted before, a well-designed “best bus” option would provide sufficient capacity to meet Ottawa’s long-term needs.

None of the claimed benefits of the LRT option (i.e., higher ridership, lower operating costs, greater environmental benefits, etc.) stand up to scrutiny.
To be short, the numbers were explained by Dado as being cost per hours, not per trip, or something to that matter, so they couldn't be compared directly. This is the main reason it couldn't be compared. LRT costs for Calgary were about 1.25$ per user.


Plus it is easy for you to say, oh, we'll use 3-car trains because of the higher service. The point of LRT or rail-based system is exactly that, to add cars with no additional operating costs. The cut off profibility for LRT compared to BRT is at 3 cars, the same one you say shouldn't go higher!

Your so call scrutiny is for you to put the information as to arrive at your results, basically you do what consultants do all the time. With a multiple variable equation, you fix the ones you want to have a higher result elsewhere. It doesn't work that way, and if you would do something like that in one of my course, you would be failed.



"However, frequencies that are 7 times lower than bus would not be acceptable during the off-peak period"

According to who exactly? At this stage, I'm giving up, I'm really tired of this endless discussion.

Last edited by p_xavier; Jul 1, 2009 at 7:26 PM.
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