South Fraser Perimeter Road/Highway 17 Extension | Completed

[Andlauer]

Originally Posted by raggedy13

I'd disagree. The Massey Tunnel is a major choke point but it's in much better shape than a lot of transit routes. There is more of a backup at the Oak Street Bridge than the Massey Tunnel anyways and even that isn't that bad. The traffic along the 99 corridor while not ideal is still relatively congestion free compared to other cities' traffic. I've spent time commuting from White Rock to downtown Vancouver AND I have experience taking transit (unlike you I'm assuming). A SkyTrain line down Broadway would be a much wiser investment at this point in time. The number of people inconvenienced by the congestion there is much greater and it directly serves some of the regions greatest economic engines such as UBC, the medical precinct, the second largest office cluster in the region (Broadway corridor) and of course many people use Broadway on their way downtown (the largest concentration of jobs in the region).

I take the tunnel every day to work. Saying it's "not that bad" is the biggest lie I've ever heard. That tunnel is a nightmare. Every afternoon on my way home it takes me an hour just to get from the Westminster HWY overpass in Richmond to the other side of the tunnel. And thats on a good day.

You can't even compare the merritts of twinning the Massey Tunnel too the proposed broadway skytrain line. UBC isn't an economic engine. A bunch of office buildings aren't an economic engine. Not when compared to the port, the border, all the businesses, communities, and commuters that rely on traveling HWY 99 and using the tunnel. The benefits of a widened HWY 99 would greatly out-weight the broadway skytrain.

[Andlauer]

Originally Posted by Spork

Let's go back to basics. What do we want to encourage? Density or sprawl? Transit supports density and roads/highways support sprawl. With greater density, we may not even need roads (see the post on the car-free city). With greater sprawl, all we need are roads, as no other transportation option is fast enough, convenient enough, or financially feasible (don't quote me on that last one, as I have no idea how much road building costs - surely less per km than transit).

A balance between the two (density and sprawl) means a balance between roads and transit.

Density means green (cars produce something like 30% of all CO2), sprawl means not-green, no matter how hard you argue that hybrid/electric/hydrogen/solar/wind powered cars are going to save us.

Whats wrong with sprawl?

You say "lets get back to the basics". Well the real question would be what do we want to promote? Prosperity or defecit?

Sprawl promotes prosperity

[mr.x]

One word: northwest2k.


With regards to long line-ups at Broadway and Commerical, he said:

Boohoo an entire plaza full of students

That means nothing compared to the massive backup of cars on highway 1 and 99

And the difference is that those idle cars are costing the economy millions of dollars per day. The same can't be said for that plaza full of students. Missing 1 bus isn't hurting anyone except the student. They should plan ahead so they get to school on time even with the back ups.

The lower mainland's road system is atrocious and isn't even close to sufficient

And since the majority of residents in the lower mainland use their car to travel to work, and coincidentally they are the ones funding transportation projects, it only makes sense more is invested in upgrading/expanding our roads

With regards to transit expansion, he says:

People pushing for these changes are a small minority. A fringe group at best.

The rest of the province commutes in their car, and wants a free flowing road to do so on

Thats the truth. No use fighting it

The people occupying the land must be moved. Unfortunately the province did a horrible job of planning for the future. But the fact remains, the highways and roads must be expanded. They're way beyond capacity

As for air quality. Thats a non factor. We rarely have even 1 day a year with high smog alert

All those cars idling because of the bottlenecks in the roads are contributing way more to poor air quality then they would if we had free flowing roads

I find the closed mindedness and inability to reason very apparent in eco-nazis as well

Its a 2 way street

We have different priorities

You guys are in love with ridiculous sky train routes that cost a fortune and benefit a small amount of people

I'd rather see the money spent on our roads and highways or lack-there-of

Obviously people in Richmond do take transit

But not enough to warrant the new Canada Line

Not even close

Eco-nazis like Mr.X are the ones that are irrational

Mention expanding highways and roads instead of public transportation and watch him blow a gasket lmao

I came into this thread to prove that the UBC extension will never happen, and I think I did that. You can bombard me with surveys and graphs made by UBC students proving that the skytrain extension is viable, but the reality is it will never happen.

Long live the Gateway Program

No public transit proposal should be put before widening/expanding our roads

Any sane person will tell you this

What is so socially irresponsible about expanding our roads and highways?

We have 0 high smog warnings per year. Less than 0.5% of BC has been developed.

Enough with this urban sprawl and smog propaganda

We need more roads, less density, and more relaxed emissions and environmental laws. Its the only way BC will prosper and stay competitive.

And:

Not gonna get into an in-depth discussion about economics. But there is a huge difference between people taking the train and people driving. When you take the train you don't have extra room for groceries, extra room to put items purchased while shopping, you're not paying for gas, you're not paying for a car, you're not getting it maintained. All those things plus many more stimulate the economy and create jobs. Not to mention driving gives you the freedom to go wherever you want (within reason).

And as for agricultural land, we've pretty much developed all the land that is able to sustain agriculture (the majority being in the lower mainland and in northern BC east of the rockies). None of it needs to get removed though. The sprawl can take place deeper into the forests and hills.



You'll be seeing a lot of me in the future

Possibly running for Premier of BC

This province needs progressive thinkers like myself

Another left wing conspiracy. There is no shortage of space to expand into the forests and mountains

A prime spot is along the maple ridge/mission corridor and then north of that

Not to mention north, south, and east of chilliwack

The need for density in BC is a fallacy. We've only developed less than .5% of BC's land

My, oh my....i nearly fell off my chair reading those posts again.

[Andlauer]

Its hard to have a debate when the thread is full of public transit users. How many people here actually commute to work in their car every day?

I speak for the people that want to someday buy an affordable, single detached home and raise a family in the lower mainland. In other words, the majority of society. Sorry to say, but the more sprawl, the easier this dream is to attain.

A million dollars+ for a dump on Knight Street?? Give me a break.

[WaxItYourself]

Originally Posted by Andlauer

Its hard to have a debate when the thread is full of public transit users. How many people here actually commute to work in their car every day?

I speak for the people that want to someday buy an affordable, single detached home and raise a family in the lower mainland. In other words, the majority of society. Sorry to say, but the more sprawl, the easier this dream is to attain.

A million dollars+ for a dump on Knight Street?? Give me a break.

You'd actually be surprised at how much people here do own their own cars and their own houses and still push for greater transportation. And with good reason. the best cities in the world weren't built with highways in mine.

[raggedy13]

Originally Posted by Andlauer

I take the tunnel every day to work. Saying it's "not that bad" is the biggest lie I've ever heard. That tunnel is a nightmare. Every afternoon on my way home it takes me an hour just to get from the Westminster HWY overpass in Richmond to the other side of the tunnel. And thats on a good day.

All I can say is it takes no more than 50-60 min from White Rock to downtown Vancouver in morning rush hour and while things slow at the tunnel the traffic keeps flowing (assuming there is no accidents). In my experience that is not that bad at all, no lie there.

Originally Posted by Andlauer

You can't even compare the merritts of twinning the Massey Tunnel too the proposed broadway skytrain line. UBC isn't an economic engine. A bunch of office buildings aren't an economic engine. Not when compared to the port, the border, all the businesses, communities, and commuters that rely on traveling HWY 99 and using the tunnel. The benefits of a widened HWY 99 would greatly out-weight the broadway skytrain.

UBC isn't an economic engine? It's one of the biggest employers in the province. A "bunch of office buildings" aren't an economic engine?? You just suggested that the employment core of our entire metro (and main economic hub of the entire province) is economically irrelevant.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Honestly I think we have a troll.

[raggedy13]

Originally Posted by Andlauer

Sprawl promotes prosperity

So that's why London and New York are the economic powerhouses of the world... because they're so low density. How did I ever miss that gem of logic and reasoning.

[DKaz]

Andlauer, you're on Skyscraper Page... Skyscaper would mean densifying and building up. Coming in here and advocating sprawl, advocating building on ALR that supplies our food and up the mountains that make Metro Vancouver a disreable place to live makes you a troll.

Some of us drive, some of us take transit, some of us do both, what we're here to do is to advocate for a better, sustainable Vancouver where driving becomes a choice and not a neccessity, where we're economically viable now yet protecting ourselves against peak oil in the future. We are not against Hwy 1 and Hwy 99 upgrades, but transit and cycling and pedestrian infrastructure needs to be continuously upgraded at the same time. If you don't like this, you are free to leave this forum and find one that better suits your opinions. You are just infuriating yourself and everyone else by being here.

[go_leafs_go02]

I drive, but mainly because I need my car for work, to do site visits and the like.

Secondly, I am a strong supporter of transit, who would take the bus if it didn't take 3 times as long to get to work compared to driving.

And, I'm working on getting my community college a bus pass.

[DKaz]

Artist's rendition of the new King Edward overpass over what appears to be a 10 lane section of Hwy 1 (you can see exit signs to the eastbound C/D lanes.).

Construction of the overpass itself will start in Fall of 2010 although the approaches will begin in late 2009 or early 2010 with a detour in effect. Bailey Bridge is incorrectly stated as the bridge being upgraded. It's the Woolridge Bridge crossing Como Lake that's being upgraded. Bailey Bridge will still be one lane with signals favouring eastbound traffic.

• Phase One: The closure of Woolridge Street at Como Creek for construction of the new bridge over Como Creek. The new bridge will be wider with sidewalks on both sides.
• Phase Two: A detour in place of King Edward Street based on the initial closure between Lougheed Highway and Woolridge Street (to be initiated at the end of 2009 or early 2010).
• Phase Three: A 12-week full closure of King Edward Street between Lougheed Highway and United Boulevard (likely during the Fall of 2010).

King Edward overpass project
Photographer/Artist: Unknown
Source: City of Coquitlam website
http://www.coquitlam.ca/Residents/Transi...rd+Overpass+Project/Project+Overview.htm

[officedweller]

Thanks!
Still can't see that being an appropriate area for residential.

[DKaz]

As long as Coquitlam doesn't attempt to run industries out of town, it might be good to live where you work.

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Thanks!
Still can't see that being an appropriate area for residential.

But think of the taxes!

[Mininari]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Thanks!
Still can't see that being an appropriate area for residential.

Agreed. That whole area stinks... literally.
At least its a reasonable distance to braid station from there... and if the United Boulevard extension is completed into New West (i.e. replace the one-lane bridge), then walking or biking that shouldn't be too bad.

Too bad you'll be riding beside the NFPR.
Its just not a desirable area for residential... maybe the price of the units will be a bit more affordable?

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by Andlauer

You can't even compare the merritts of twinning the Massey Tunnel too the proposed broadway skytrain line. UBC isn't an economic engine. A bunch of office buildings aren't an economic engine. Not when compared to the port, the border, all the businesses, communities, and commuters that rely on traveling HWY 99 and using the tunnel. The benefits of a widened HWY 99 would greatly out-weight the broadway skytrain.

I agree. You can't compare the region's second largest concentration of jobs and a tunnel which connects bi-hourly ferry and Farmland to more farmland and low-density Richmond.

Yes, the tunnel is congested, but this is no different than all the other roads during rush hour[s].

The Port is served by the Alex Fraser Bridge. Dangerous goods aren't even allowed through the tunnel, IIRC. Admittedly, the path is 7-9km shorter on the #91. Much of the port traffic, however, end up going east and the intermodal yard is also east. Much of the infrastructure improvements for the Ports are in the form of either Rail or the SFPR, both of which have little to do with the tunnel.

The Border is served by the 91 as well. A quicker and more efficient route is the 91. I have never taken the tunnel (on purpose) from the border.

The Businesses in Richmond are served well by the 91. Steveston is admittedly easier to access from the South via the Tunnel.

The Communities [Villages] of Steveston and Ladner are served directly by the tunnel. You have a point there.

The Commuters from Ladner and Tsawwassen are served by the tunnel. Surrey commuters can choose to use the #91 for most destinations.

The Tunnel is a necessary link for the one thing you never mentioned: "Ferry Traffic"

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by Mininari

Agreed. That whole area stinks... literally.
At least its a reasonable distance to braid station from there... and if the United Boulevard extension is completed into New West (i.e. replace the one-lane bridge), then walking or biking that shouldn't be too bad.

Too bad you'll be riding beside the NFPR.
Its just not a desirable area for residential... maybe the price of the units will be a bit more affordable?

The Garbage transfer station is part of the redevelopment, so the smell will go away.

There is a non-paved road beside the West End of United which could work well for a cycling path if it was paved. It would connect well to the Central Valley Greenway.

Coquitlam's largest single employer is also on United Blvd.

One thing going for it is the river view. It's a nice view and you can see the Alex Fraser, SkyBridge and Patullo in one shot.

[Lover Fighter]

Originally Posted by Andlauer

Its hard to have a debate when the thread is full of public transit users.

Actually, the reason it's hard to have a debate is because the debate was settled over a decade ago when planners around the world started realizing how dangerous sprawl is.

You're probably the last person I'll ever hear arguing in favour of sprawl.

[kylemacmac]

Originally Posted by Andlauer

Whats wrong with sprawl?
Sprawl promotes prosperity

If you call sitting in a car for over an hour to get from Westminster Hwy to the south side off the Massey tunnel,
"prosperity", then I want absolutely no part of this prosperity you're describing.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by kylemacmac

If you call sitting in a car for over an hour to get from Westminster Hwy to the south side off the Massey tunnel,
"prosperity", then I want absolutely no part of this prosperity you're describing.

"Live long and prosper"
Sprawl only works on Vulcan... because Vulcans live 200 years and can afford to waste some of that time in traffic.

That bridge picture is odd, however. The sand in the background is slated for Townhouses, but they show two condos there. I would think the townhouses would get built first... but that image just shows the preload.