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  #161  
Old Posted May 5, 2009, 5:41 PM
officedweller officedweller is offline
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Yeah, the main danger for cyclists is falling into traffic - and that danger comes from pedestrians not being aware of their surroundings. When you have a group of people (or even just two people) walking down the sidewalk oblivious to what is going on around them (i.e. engaged in conversation, staring at the view, walking in the same direction as the cyclist) - there's not much that signage or education you can do to solve the problem.

The NPA's "solution" to add a railing to sidewalk won't work unless it is 5 ft tall to prevent cyclists flipping over the railing and with mountain bike handlebar widths, it reduces the effective width of the sidewalk/right of way to an unacceptably narrow dimension.

I don't think it's a situation of people being scared sh*tness about crossing the bridge on the sidewalk - I think that you need to be more vigilent when cycling past cross streets, driveways and parked cars than when on the bridge sidewalk. The main thing to do when on the bridge at present is to ride defensively - ride slowly when approaching pedestrians (especially from behind) and use a bell, voice or horn when passing (i.e. I yell out "passing on the ----" when jogging past pedestrians (who look like they may veer into my path) on the bridge - it's also a mental cue for the pedestrians to pay attention to their surroundings rather than just whizzing by them).

That said, the risk of an cyclist / pedestrian accident on the bridge is high enough that it should be addressed with cyclist / pedestrian separation.
     
     
  #162  
Old Posted May 5, 2009, 6:34 PM
whatnext whatnext is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EastVanMark View Post
Yes, quite serious. All those other forms of transportation are great and wonderful additions, but reducing the number of lanes is slowing down vehicular traffic and that is not good either. The example of the Dunsmir Viaduct best displays this. Before the removal of one lane; little to no traffic anytime. Now in the mornings, it is almost always clogged. Vancouver is always trying to "slow things down'.
Exactly. I make a point of counting how many cyclists/pedestrians use the "new, improved" viaduct when I drive on it. If I'm luck I'll see one. And that's usually someone with a shopping cart. Meanwhile emissions climb from all the cars idling thanks to this greenwash.
     
     
  #163  
Old Posted May 5, 2009, 6:48 PM
s211 s211 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by officedweller View Post
Yeah, the main danger for cyclists is falling into traffic - and that danger comes from pedestrians not being aware of their surroundings. When you have a group of people (or even just two people) walking down the sidewalk oblivious to what is going on around them (i.e. engaged in conversation, staring at the view, walking in the same direction as the cyclist) - there's not much that signage or education you can do to solve the problem.
How hard is it for cyclists to use their bike bell and/or announce that they are coming up on someone???? I do it ALL the time, and life goes on.

Last edited by raggedy13; May 5, 2009 at 9:05 PM. Reason: asterisks won't cut it
     
     
  #164  
Old Posted May 5, 2009, 9:09 PM
b5baxter b5baxter is offline
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A report this morning on CBC radio said analysis from a study at UBC showed that there were 8 times as many cyclist injuries on Burrard Bridge compared with Granville or Cambie.

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Originally Posted by s211 View Post
How hard is it for cyclists to use their bike bell and/or announce that they are coming up on someone???? I do it ALL the time, and life goes on.
It doesn't always work - especially on the downhill side of Burrard when the cyclist is travelling faster, there is a lot of traffic noise and pedestrians have headphones on. Even whey pedestrians can hear I have seen them get confused and move the wrong way - into the cyclist's path.

Last edited by raggedy13; May 6, 2009 at 7:22 PM. Reason: profanity
     
     
  #165  
Old Posted May 5, 2009, 10:26 PM
deasine deasine is offline
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Locked until further notice.

Last edited by deasine; May 6, 2009 at 6:00 PM.
     
     
  #166  
Old Posted May 6, 2009, 6:02 PM
deasine deasine is offline
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I'm unlocking this but I want everyone to calm themselves down. Profanity and personal attacks towards others is strictly prohibited and will not be tolerated. This is a discussion forum.
     
     
  #167  
Old Posted May 6, 2009, 7:50 PM
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Removing car lanes on the Burrard bridge is a bad idea. I am an avid cyclist and I love riding my bike on Vancouver's streets, but this just seems like a dumb idea. This doesn't make sense; it will do little to promote more cycling and it will be bad for the environment because the traffic jam will force all the cars to idling.

I ride over the bridge and have never had a problem, but if some cyclists are being injured than there must be a more logical solution. Perhaps some way to keep cyclist and pedestrians separated, and some cyclist just need to slow down. A small second bridge deck constructed blow the main road would be the best solution.
     
     
  #168  
Old Posted May 6, 2009, 8:19 PM
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Originally Posted by crazyjoeda View Post
Removing car lanes on the Burrard bridge is a bad idea. I am an avid cyclist and I love riding my bike on Vancouver's streets, but this just seems like a dumb idea. This doesn't make sense; it will do little to promote more cycling and it will be bad for the environment because the traffic jam will force all the cars to idling.

I ride over the bridge and have never had a problem, but if some cyclists are being injured than there must be a more logical solution. Perhaps some way to keep cyclist and pedestrians separated, and some cyclist just need to slow down. A small second bridge deck constructed blow the main road would be the best solution.
Stop making sense.
     
     
  #169  
Old Posted May 6, 2009, 10:58 PM
racc racc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyjoeda View Post
Removing car lanes on the Burrard bridge is a bad idea. I am an avid cyclist and I love riding my bike on Vancouver's streets, but this just seems like a dumb idea. This doesn't make sense; it will do little to promote more cycling and it will be bad for the environment because the traffic jam will force all the cars to idling.

I ride over the bridge and have never had a problem, but if some cyclists are being injured than there must be a more logical solution. Perhaps some way to keep cyclist and pedestrians separated, and some cyclist just need to slow down. A small second bridge deck constructed blow the main road would be the best solution.
Just about everything seems safe until you or someone you love is hurt.

In the past 5 months, 8 cyclists have been injured on Burrard Bridge. It is dangerous and must be fixed now before someone is killed.

Even if you don't care about cyclists getting injured, each time this happens, there will be long traffic delays. By preventing these delays even motorists will benefit from the two lane trial.

This issue has been going on for years. They have looked at every possible option including a path underneath the bridge. There are a few problems with such a path. It would be expensive, probably around $30 million and would require approval from Transport Canada as there has to be clearance for boats. This could take years.

It is only a trial. I'm not sure why people are so scared of the trial. Are you afraid that it will work and prove that lanes of traffic can be reallocated without causing major problems. Anyway, the two lane trial will settle the debate once and for all. Even if you don't think it will work, I urge you to at least give it a chance.
     
     
  #170  
Old Posted May 6, 2009, 11:21 PM
bcj bcj is offline
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Originally Posted by racc View Post
It is only a trial. I'm not sure why people are so scared of the trial. Are you afraid that it will work and prove that lanes of traffic can be reallocated without causing major problems. Anyway, the two lane trial will settle the debate once and for all. Even if you don't think it will work, I urge you to at least give it a chance.
Why are people scared of the trial?

Have you ever seen that Seinfeld episode where Kramer repaints the lines on the highway to give everyone a wider berth? There can be no reasonable doubt that this change will cause severe congestion. It did ten years ago when there were far fewer cars on the road, and they only removed one lane! To suggest that motorists are afraid of the trial because they don't want to see the plan succeed is disingenuous. How 'bout, people don't want to spend more time in traffic than they already do?

It's simple, this is going to cause a headache for tens of thousands in cars so that perhaps hundreds on bikes can have a pleasure cruise across the bridge. All the while a council full of ideologues spit-shine their "green" credentials.
     
     
  #171  
Old Posted May 6, 2009, 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by bcj View Post
Why are people scared of the trial?

Have you ever seen that Seinfeld episode where Kramer repaints the lines on the highway to give everyone a wider berth? There can be no reasonable doubt that this change will cause severe congestion. It did ten years ago when there were far fewer cars on the road, and they only removed one lane! To suggest that motorists are afraid of the trial because they don't want to see the plan succeed is disingenuous. How 'bout, people don't want to spend more time in traffic than they already do?

It's simple, this is going to cause a headache for tens of thousands in cars so that perhaps hundreds on bikes can have a pleasure cruise across the bridge. All the while a council full of ideologues spit-shine their "green" credentials.
There are more cars on the bridge now because of the construction on Cambie Street. Once that is over, I suspect these 6,600 vehicles per day will go back to Cambie. There were also 27,000 per day that went from Cambie to Granville, so soon, there will be plenty of space on Granville.

Your numbers are also way off. If it does cause any delays, it will only be for a couple of hours a day during rush hour so that maybe 8,000 motorists that are slightly delayed per day 5 per week, so a total of 40,000 per week.

Meanwhile, the bridge will be safer for the over 5,000 cyclists and pedestrians that use the bridge each day, seven days a week. So the total number of people benefiting is 35,000. Last trial, there was an increase in 800 cyclist per day so that is another 5,600 people per week bringing the total to 40,600 people benefiting. I would expect with the two lane trial, the increases in the number of people walking and cycling over the bridge would even be greater.

And in the end it is a safety issue. Headache is just a bit too dramatic to describe a small delay in crossing the bridge. Why a small delay, because if the delays are large, most drivers are smart enough to go over Granville instead of waiting in traffic at Burrard.

What is a real headache is when a cyclist or pedestrian hits their head on the pavement.

Last edited by racc; May 6, 2009 at 11:45 PM. Reason: Changed 4,000 to 40,000
     
     
  #172  
Old Posted May 6, 2009, 11:46 PM
EastVanMark EastVanMark is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bcj View Post
Why are people scared of the trial?

Have you ever seen that Seinfeld episode where Kramer repaints the lines on the highway to give everyone a wider berth? There can be no reasonable doubt that this change will cause severe congestion. It did ten years ago when there were far fewer cars on the road, and they only removed one lane! To suggest that motorists are afraid of the trial because they don't want to see the plan succeed is disingenuous. How 'bout, people don't want to spend more time in traffic than they already do?

It's simple, this is going to cause a headache for tens of thousands in cars so that perhaps hundreds on bikes can have a pleasure cruise across the bridge. All the while a council full of ideologues spit-shine their "green" credentials.
You summed the whole stupid situation perfectly.
     
     
  #173  
Old Posted May 7, 2009, 6:48 AM
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For those who think this is just about safety for cyclists, think again. This letter is really quite shocking.

Quote:
Mayor Robertson,

As a constitutent who voted for you and your current government I wish to make my voice heard about tomorrow's decision regarding the Burrard Bridge Cycling Lane decision.

I am 42 yrs of age and a commuter cyclist for 20 years all through my years in Toronto, Ottawa and now Vancouver. My experiences riding the bridges in Vancouver are some of the most harrowing experiences I have had in all that time!

A case in point: last summer on my way from the West End to the West side, I was taking the Burrard Bridge when suddenly there was a traffic jam of cyclists just over the crest of hill. I quickly turned to warn all those behind me there was a problem then got off my bike as it was clear someone was injured and I could offer first aid because I have training. The injured person was a young woman in her 20s who had been pushed from her bike by an irate pedestrian who stepped in front of her because was frustrated by having to wait for the line of cyclists who followed behind her. Without a moment's regard for her life, this man's anger meant he pushed a cyclist OFF THE SIDEWALK, DIRECTLY INTO TRAFFIC. Thankfully the woman driving the car in the curb lane was able to stop in time, but she was frazzled because she had an infant in her car and was terrified her car would be rear-ended by the cars behind her, injuring her and her baby and then possibly further injuring or killing the cyclist who lay on the road in front of her.

The cyclist laid face down, bleeding profusely from the back of her had where her helmet cut her open. The blood loss was tremendous and equally unnerving was the fact that the woman's partner had the grave misfortune of witnessing the entire incident as he was travelling behind her on the bridge. Can you imagine what it must have felt like for him to watch her be deliberately pushed, land among the cars and pray to God she survived? I stayed and provided first aid, along with a number of others, a doctor who was in a car on the bridge, and comforted her partner while we awaited the ambulance. In all of the chaos, the pedestrian was not detained but left the scene of the accident. My only hope is that the police were able to find witnesses and somehow locate the man to charge him after the fact. I never learned the fate of the woman or whether there was justice served.

My hope is that this single incident can be added to a list of why we MUST alter the current cycling lanes on this bridge. I very much support the TWO lane trial, offering people of all ages to safely walk, cycle and run over the bridge. Faster cyclists will have room to safely pass slower cyclists. The traffic noise and pollution will be further away from the sidewalk, making the bridge much more pleasant to walk over. People will be able to enjoy walking over the bridge without worrying about cyclists whizzing by.

By creating a great walking and cycling experience in both directions, the two lane trial will provide many people with a real options to driving over the bridge. This will maximize the number of people walking and cycling while decreasing traffic on the bridge thus ensuring the success of the trial. Granville Bridge is only a short drive away for motorists and will even be quicker for many trips and with the Canada Line opening this fall, traffic downtown will decrease.
I drive both a regular bicycle and and electric model that is an "electric scooter" in appearance. It meets all of the requirements of power-assisted bicycle, is street legal but is VERY dubiously driven across bridges because it "looks" like a gas powered scooter. I cannot safely nor am I legally allowed to travel in the car lanes on the bridge because my Electric Bike travels a maximum of 32 km/hr. I am too slow for the bridge car lane, but scared of the narrowness of sidewalk lanes, get angry comments from those who don't realize I'm a bike whether they are car drivers, fellow cyclists or pedestrians. The devoted cycling lanes would ease this considerably. I respect the sidewalk speed limit and drive responsibly because I want to give/get respect on the road and I care about my life!

Please help green this city and keep cyclists, pedestrians and drivers safe by passing the TWO LANE TRIAL on the Burrard Bridge.

Sincerely,
Kathryn Anderson
     
     
  #174  
Old Posted May 7, 2009, 7:14 AM
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racc, I do care about the safety of cyclist because I am one. That letter you posted describes a crime not an unsafe bridge. What if an irate driver drives in the bicycle lane and hits a cyclist? and I genuinely believe that is a risk.

Lets be sensible, this two lane trial is not a long term solution. Even if it lasts for the full term (what is that 6 months?) I don't see it being continued. I agree something needs to be done but this is not it.
A second deck for cyclists below the bridge could be built; the tiny sail boats will have lots of room.
     
     
  #175  
Old Posted May 7, 2009, 7:21 AM
shaners shaners is offline
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a 2 lane trail?? have you seen how busy the bridge is during peak hours, and the line-up down pacific street towards english bay in the pm?? i understand the need to come up with something, but 2 traffic lanes, come on. what, is this the port mann bridge in cycle land?
     
     
  #176  
Old Posted May 7, 2009, 7:57 AM
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Burrard Bridge bike lanes doomed for failure


By Miro Cernetig , Vancouver Sun columnist
May 6, 2009

COLUMN: It’s pretty much a given that Vancouver’s Burrard Bridge is ground zero in the city’s bicycle wars.

For years, bicyclistas have sought to take over its lanes. Autoistas want to keep the bridge all for themselves.

Now Vancouver’s new, green mayor is poised to enter this silly, polarized battle. But Gregor Robertson may want to think twice before he backs the newest proposal to close one, perhaps two lanes of the landmark bridge to cars.

This $1.45-million experiment is doomed to failure. The introduction of bicycles to the busy bridge has been tried before, in 1996. It was deeply unpopular and a traffic disaster.

There’s absolutely nothing to suggest it will be different this time.

The Burrard Bridge, a key passage into Vancouver’s downtown, still remains packed with fast-moving cars at rush hour. Any reduction in car lanes will create similar traffic jams and play havoc with the city’s traffic flow.

Don’t take my word for it, consider a city report the mayor must surely have read: “Computer modelling done at the time indicated that the reallocation of one or two lanes would interfere with transit service, slowing bus operations in both northbound and southbound directions, as well as adding to traffic congestion in Kitsilano and West End neighbourhoods.”

Mayor Robertson wants to create the greenest city on earth.

Opening the bridge to bicycles is, he says, part of that green dream. But it’s a tenuous argument.

The reality is the Burrard Bridge experiment will have almost no impact on the city’s carbon footprint. His own staff have told me that in private.

This is because reducing car lanes on the bridge will cause gridlock, forcing automobiles and buses to idle, creating more, not less, greenhouse-gas emissions.

Rerouting cars to other roads in and out of downtown Vancouver will also add kilometres to a trip — which means more gas burned.

The other inescapable fact worth noting is there’s also no cycling crisis that needs solving. In fact, bicycling traffic on the Burrard Bridge has actually plateaued, as the city’s own report notes: “Growth of cycling and walking on the Burrard Bridge, which increased 30-40 per cent between 1996 and 2001, appears to have plateaued in recent years.”

What is His Worship’s urgency on this issue, anyway? The city’s cycling study found the use of the bridge by cyclists to be surprisingly modest: “Between 8,000 and 9,000 people cross the Burrard Bridge every hour in peak periods (8 a.m.-9 a.m.) and (5 p.m.-6 p.m.)”

How many of those commuters are actually on two wheels? Let’s look at the report again: “One in ten is walking or cycling.”

That highlights the final absurdity underlying this idea. If the mayor votes on closing lanes of the Burrard Bridge to cars he will in essence be telling us the desires of a few hundred cyclists — and that vociferous bicycling lobby that helped put him in office — are worthy of a $1.45-million expenditure the city’s own planners know is unlikely to be good value.

Is this an anti-bicycling tirade? No.

When the Burrard Bridge is upgraded, as it must be in the years ahead, bicycling lanes must be incorporated into the redesign. Those plans are already drafted.

Until then, put fences up on the curbs to keep cyclists from falling into traffic. And tell them, please, to pedal a little slower on the sidewalks until they get the bridge of their dreams.

We’ll all save about $1.45 million. And it will save the mayor another headache — not having to explain the $250,000 “communications” strategy his bureaucrats want him to spend peddling this clunker of an idea to the public.

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  #177  
Old Posted May 7, 2009, 9:03 AM
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$1.45-million????

For what? To put down a couple dozen concrete dividers?
If they just painted the lines double yellow that would be a couple hundred bucks at most.
What a waste of money...now I am really against just due to the cost. This should be $100,000 max realistically.
     
     
  #178  
Old Posted May 7, 2009, 12:54 PM
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I beleive ~$200k is going to a marketing consulate to sell the idea to the public.

I think even the supporters of this plan agree this is not the ideal situation. Let's just bite the bullet and build something else, whether it be the second deck or a new passerelle, I fail to accept the $100Million quote they keep tossing out to make it happen, in fact I fail to beleive it couldn't be down for a fraction of that cost.
     
     
  #179  
Old Posted May 7, 2009, 3:33 PM
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Why don't we build a new pedestrian/cyclist bridge about a block west of the existing Burrard St. Bridge? It doesn't have to be so high anymore since industrial use of False Creek is almost at nil now. If this whole cyclist vs. pedestrian vs. vehicle thing will mean all out war, let's just do the easy thing. The bridge won't be expensive, just do a cable stayed bridge (seems to be the theme in Vancouver these days) with two concrete towers and a steel deck that doesn't really have to support too much weight, done and done.
     
     
  #180  
Old Posted May 7, 2009, 4:39 PM
racc racc is offline
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Originally Posted by crazyjoeda View Post
racc, I do care about the safety of cyclist because I am one. That letter you posted describes a crime not an unsafe bridge. What if an irate driver drives in the bicycle lane and hits a cyclist? and I genuinely believe that is a risk.

Lets be sensible, this two lane trial is not a long term solution. Even if it lasts for the full term (what is that 6 months?) I don't see it being continued. I agree something needs to be done but this is not it.
A second deck for cyclists below the bridge could be built; the tiny sail boats will have lots of room.
First of all, cyclists (and motorists) face irate drivers everyday. This people are a risk to society and should not be driving a car. They will find something to "make" them mad regardless of what happens on the bridge.

How on the earth do you know what will happen? Lanes of traffic are being reallocated on bridges and roads all around the world. Some people always predict chaos and it usually doesn't happen. People really need to be open-minded about the trial and give it a chance.

Safety must be the priority now. A bridge or other solution will take years to plan, fund and bridge.
     
     
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