YEG - Edmonton Int Airport - Page 187

eemy · #**3721** Posted **May 1, 2009, 12:25 AM**

^ I'm not sure I buy that. I'm quite certain that Westjet would be able to operate YYC-YXD on their present aircraft without any restrictions.

mode · #**3722** Posted **May 1, 2009, 12:43 AM**

I would not get too excited about this just yet. "Commuter service from the City Centre Airport" can just as easily mean that passengers can check in at Blatchford before being sent by bus or train to their aircraft at the International Airport.

Or perhaps it means nothing at all. Perhaps someone will be asked to clear the confusion. Newspaper writers have to meet deadlines. Sometimes the stuff comes out funny.

EdmTrekker · #**3723** Posted **May 1, 2009, 12:55 AM**

Funny much. There will be no large jets at City Centre airport ever again. We are not spending billions at the International for no reason.

I am hearing KLM are going suspend flights to YYC and possibly Lufthansa. The volumes and price structure is not meeting projections and it is a money loser. BA may be next. Calgary is not a major world airport and there will be slots available a plenty if they pull the plug for a few years.

0773|=\ · #**3724** Posted **May 1, 2009, 1:53 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by CanadianCentaur

Check this out - just stumbled onto this letter from the Journal. Is this guy pulling the highlighted info out of his — or something?! There's NO way WestJet'd be allowed to fly into YXD with those scheduled restrictions in place. This sounds like a ludicrous attempt to add fuel to this ridiculous debate! (or better yet, beating a dead horse?)

I know the airport debate's getting so tiresome to many of you and I agree it's got to end ASAP, therefore I apologize for posting this. However, I felt I had to post this in case any of you want to write a reply to refute this ludicrousity.

Plus, the name of the writer sounds familiar to me somehow - can't quite put a finger on it, but I have a disturbed feeling about this.

...

Yeah, I read that one too. I thought I mentioned it in the construction page a couple days ago, but maybe my mind is playing tricks on me...

Someone could say something, but I think the final decision will be in the right hands. The city's current vision is incoherent with an expanded YXD service, and the thought of building a brand-new domestic passenger terminal @ YXD is just ridiculous.

Jasper and one o nin · #**3725** Posted **May 1, 2009, 2:51 AM**

cessna grand caravan with the westjet livery...

tuffyy · #**3726** Posted **May 1, 2009, 3:58 AM**

CYXD runways.

12/30 5868ft
16/34 5700ft

737-600 required takeoff distance on a +25 degree day=Approx 6000ft.The 700/800 would not be able to operate from the airport at all.And with WestJets current SOP's the runways at YXD are to short unless they would want to offer seasonal (winter only) service.It would be deemed unsafe as the aircraft would surely use almost every inch of the runway (12/30) and if a aborted takeoff should come up...Well I think it speaks for itself...

eemy · #**3727** Posted **May 1, 2009, 11:36 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by tuffyy

CYXD runways.

12/30 5868ft
16/34 5700ft

737-600 required takeoff distance on a +25 degree day=Approx 6000ft.The 700/800 would not be able to operate from the airport at all.And with WestJets current SOP's the runways at YXD are to short unless they would want to offer seasonal (winter only) service.It would be deemed unsafe as the aircraft would surely use almost every inch of the runway (12/30) and if a aborted takeoff should come up...Well I think it speaks for itself...

According to these charts from Boeing, it's not entirely clear, but you'd probably be right that the payload would need to be restricted to a certain extent. I can't imagine the aircraft needing all that much fuel for a YYC-YXD flight, so I can't imagine the restrictions wouldn't be too severe and likely inconsequential as I wouldn't expect that sort of flight to be carrying much cargo either.

7e7 · #**3728** Posted **May 1, 2009, 12:49 PM**

^WestJet will not operate out of YXD the citizens of Edmonton decided that back in 1995 when voted over 75% to eliminate scheduled traffic from that airport. Plus at that time WestJet said that they would not operate from airport no matter what - that was when they had planes that could.

The city has been quite clear that opening up scheduled service at this time is not on the table and the lease with Edmonton Airports prohibits scheduled service.

Now if they wanted to they could probably do hop to the international to pick up more passengers and fuel....now that makes sense

Airboy · #**3729** Posted **May 1, 2009, 3:09 PM**

If anyone heard the roar the First Air 737 200 made a couple of weeks ago as it took off from City Centre, will agree that 737's will not be using this airport again. That said where would the new terminal building be located.

MrOilers · #**3730** Posted **May 1, 2009, 3:09 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by 7e7

Now if they wanted to they could probably do hop to the international to pick up more passengers and fuel....now that makes sense

Exactly. There is absolutely no benefit for an airline to use the old City Center Airport over the International. None at all.

Coldrsx · #**3731** Posted **May 1, 2009, 3:11 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airboy

If anyone heard the roar the First Air 737 200 made a couple of weeks ago as it took off from City Centre, will agree that 737's will not be using this airport again. That said where would the new terminal building be located.

maybe that is what i saw... for i was out and about downtown and a larger plane flew over at a very low altitude that thinking back resembled a 737

s211 · #**3732** Posted **May 1, 2009, 3:18 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by lightrail

Even without the scheduled restrictions, WestJet's series 600/700/800 NG 737 aircraft are too large for the airport - they need a longer runway at that pressure altitude than is available. The 737s that used to fly out of there in the 70s were much smaller, and they were only flying short distances and were not taking off at full take-off weight. Even then, they had to use short field take off techniques to get the plane off the ground.

Keep in mind that Wastejet is mulling over branching out into commuter aircraft smaller than 737s.

Mmmmm, I do love the smell of conspiracies in the morning.

240glt · #**3733** Posted **May 1, 2009, 4:13 PM**

Running commercial flights out of the muni is not open for debate.

This only came up due to a letter posted in the journal submitted by someone who has a vested interest in seeing scheduled service there. The letter was deliberately misinformational.

LO 044 · #**3734** Posted **May 1, 2009, 5:41 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by EdmTrekker

Funny much. There will be no large jets at City Centre airport ever again. We are not spending billions at the International for no reason.

I am hearing KLM are going suspend flights to YYC and possibly Lufthansa. The volumes and price structure is not meeting projections and it is a money loser. BA may be next. Calgary is not a major world airport and there will be slots available a plenty if they pull the plug for a few years.

EdmTrekker do you know someone on the inside with this information or are these rumblings on airliners.net. Just curious. But i wonder if this is a good thing or bad thing for YEG. Maybe LH would switch its metal to YEG for at least a few days of the week. KLM's prices from YYC are a joke. It is no wonder they'd be pulling out soon.

lubicon · #**3735** Posted **May 1, 2009, 7:06 PM**

KLM hasn't even started the new service yet, it's supposed to stary this Sunday. Have tickets sales been so bad that they wouldn't even launch the service?

Bigtime · #**3736** Posted **May 1, 2009, 8:23 PM**

Well I hope I at least get to see them once in YYC before they pull the plug!

EdmTrekker · #**3737** Posted **May 1, 2009, 11:40 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by LO 044

EdmTrekker do you know someone on the inside with this information or are these rumblings on airliners.net. Just curious. But i wonder if this is a good thing or bad thing for YEG. Maybe LH would switch its metal to YEG for at least a few days of the week. KLM's prices from YYC are a joke. It is no wonder they'd be pulling out soon.

Lufthansa is bleeding (check out their loss statements) and my sources say the fluff is the first to go...this flu situation was the last straw. Stay tuned. Remember what I said about serving MAJOR cities where slots are tight or cost $$ verus cutting places that are marginal at best. Lufthansa needs to help its SA partners get through this...

KLM have little to gain or BA...

tuffyy · #**3738** Posted **May 2, 2009, 3:14 AM**

It is scary as LH and KL are hurting, our counterparts in Mexico city have also been hearing they may reduce service into Mexico city atleast until traffic demand returns...Two airlines that are certainly not doing well.

Also AeroMexico and Mexicana are talking about a merger.Things could get interesting!

lightrail · #**3739** Posted **May 3, 2009, 1:26 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

^ I'm not sure I buy that. I'm quite certain that Westjet would be able to operate YYC-YXD on their present aircraft without any restrictions.

The smallest jet in WestJet's fleet is the 737-600. It requires a field length of 5,900 feet at sea level for take-off. The jet will be using 95% N1 power for that perofrmance, meaning more noise on take-off and climb out.

Nav Canada Pilot's Flight Supplement shows the main (longest) runway at At Edmonton City Centre (YXD) with 5,700 ft and an elevation of 2200 ft ASL. At that altitude, the air pressure is less dense, so the aircraft needs more speed to get off the ground and therefore more Runway.

Also, the Runways at YXD are restricted to 140,000 pounds. A loaded 737-600 will weigh about that on landing, but fully loaded would wiegh more on take-off (fuel weight is higher on take-off than landing).

There is no way WestJet would try to fly their 737s out of YXD. They wouldn't be allowed to do so to start with for safety reasons.

I tried it in Flight Simulator. I took a 737-600 with half fuel and half passenger load (by weight) taxied out to Runway 16 and back-tracked to get maximum runway length. I held the brakes on - aet 15% flaps for take-off - throttle to 95% N1, released brakes and the main wheels left the ground just across Kingsway avenue. In real life of course I would have taken out the fence, lights, cars, and approach lights and most likely would have crashed.

Johnny Aussie · #**3740** Posted **May 3, 2009, 3:10 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by LO 044

EdmTrekker do you know someone on the inside with this information or are these rumblings on airliners.net. Just curious. But i wonder if this is a good thing or bad thing for YEG. Maybe LH would switch its metal to YEG for at least a few days of the week. KLM's prices from YYC are a joke. It is no wonder they'd be pulling out soon.

My 2 cents regarding this from sources at the micro level.

KLM may only last at YYC for the summer season. It is too late to pull the plug as services do kick off this week. However, there is a strong case that this flight will be pulled by October. They definitely have not been meeting projections (but then again, not very many routes are at the moment anyway).

As for LH, there doesn't appear to be any rumblings of closing YYC, however, a reduced frequency schedule over the winter is certainly a possibility.

As for BA, also cutting back to 4 or 5 flights per week for the winter schedule is on the table.

In conclusion, bad timing to add capacity. KLM may be gone by the end of the year, but LH and BA will most likely be around at YYC, but on a reduced schedule.