Saskatoon Construction - Page 290

dsim249 · #**5781** Posted **Apr 28, 2009, 6:35 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by kgc087

I'm sorry Ibird but this just comes across as uninnovative and uninspired, look at cities like stockholm, helsinki, copenhagen etc. They have worse climates then us and still have very high bike usage, pedestrian traffic and public transit usage. What needs to be down is developing a system which is convenient and comfortable for people. Everyone really should watch Living City: A critical guide. Our cities very survival is dependent on the development of public transit and reinvesting into the public realm. Vehicles displace people from the city and from eachother and only widen social gaps, while transit, cycling and walking bring people together and help them rediscover eachother and their community. This is what is integral to a vibrant centre. Cars are never the answer. They just pollute, and demand wasteful infrastructure which only hampers development in the long run.

Having lived in Sweden for a year, I can say with confidence that Stockholm does not have a worse climate than Saskatoon. Nor would Copenhagen or Helsinki. These major Scandinavian cities (and Finnish) close proximity to the Baltic Sea keep the temperatures relatively close to zero degrees during the winter months. Therefore they receive little, to no snow. That, combined with the mild temperatures make biking much more viable than here in Saskatoon.
If you're looking for cities that do have comparable weather to the 306, certain Russian cities might be a safer bet.

babo · #**5782** Posted **Apr 28, 2009, 7:14 AM**

There is perfectly good cycling infrastructure in place already. Why do cycling path proponents feel the need to lobby to duplicate infrastructure and segregate cyclists off the roads where they belong? For every bicycle on the roads, that's one less car on the roads.

As a year-round utility and commuting cyclist, I'd much rather see money spent on dedicated, secure bicycle parking areas at places of business instead of meandering bicycle ghettos through green spaces that serve only the recreational cyclist and continue to propagate the "bicycle as toy" theory that North American urban planners so strongly believe in. Properly done, twelve bicycles can be parked in the space of one car.

prairieguy · #**5783** Posted **Apr 28, 2009, 3:46 PM**

Since I started this whole "road infrastructure" debate that has lead into a discussion on public transit, bike lobbying, etc., I feel I need to clarify my personal position a bit further.

I too, make every effort to bike everywhere (work and recreation) in the spring, summer and fall months. Even though I currently live in a suburb (albeit and older one), I still make the effort to avoid using my car as much as I can (as does my wife). I just felt this important to point out, so that my point about the need to improve our roads is not mistaken as coming from a car road hog!

I fully support increases in public transit and biking/walking as primary modes of transportation. But I also share the opinion that this is not always viable all year round in Saskatoon (maybe it IS viable, but realistically, will not ever be what the majority will do).

Also, as a destination centre/hub for Saskatchewan, I think it important that Saskatoon exhibit adequate infrastructure for those visiting our city. Right now, it would appear we have 3rd world standards for many of our roads. Whether we like it or not (as I experienced with our International guests) this is a factor in peoples opinions of a city. Let's try and make our city "shine", as is our tourism tagline.

midnightrambler · #**5784** Posted **Apr 28, 2009, 3:48 PM**

Cars = Capitalism
Bicycle's = Socialism

I drive a car. I don't feel bad for doing so.

I wouldn't want to ride a bike in January, I wouldn't want to stand out in the cold to wait for a bus to catch another bus to wait outside in the cold to arrive at my destination 20 minutes late because I don't have enough time to plan for a 45 minute bus ride.

People like cars. They are here to stay. You can try and create ways to social engineer people to quit using them, but it isn't going to work. I am all for mass transit, but it isn't viable for a large percentage of the population. It is far to cheap and convinient to drive a personal automobile.

So fix the damn roads

madsad · #**5785** Posted **Apr 28, 2009, 4:48 PM**

^^^

Cars are not here to stay. Car culture needs cheap energy, and we all know we are running out of that. They will die off. We are witnessing another function of this with the collapse of N American auto industry, they will die off too. There will be no hypercar running on pee, or whatever, that will allow us to drive without consequence.

The question is: have we built cities that can function without cars? Considering Saskatoon's climate, in particular, it is obvious we have not.

Oh, and, uh, I'll take the socialism, thanks.

macca · #**5786** Posted **Apr 28, 2009, 5:47 PM**

Subway stations are plenty warm.

ninipanini · #**5787** Posted **Apr 28, 2009, 5:55 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by lbird

The roads not being plowed don't affect you as a biker? Can you explain that a bit more? How do you bike through a six foot snow drift? To me, the bike-everywhere, walk-everywhere mania doesn't make any sense in this climate. Warm indoor shopping malls and cars make sense in this city...

The snow really doesn't affect me... I don't have to bike through a 6 foot snow drift because bikes are much more versatile than cars, I frequently end up biking past scads of cars that are stuck in the snow. Since bikes are so much smaller and lighter if I'm in a rut or a difficult patch I just pick my bike up and move it over a few feet and keep on going. Other than the days when there is a blizzard and I'm not able to bike because the visibility is too low, or it's too windy, there really many times when I don't just peddle along! I have to qualify all of this by saying that I too was a skeptic 2 years ago, it's only the last two winters that I've braved the cold and I've loved every minute of it! Oh, and I do have a car, so biking is a CHOICE for me

Having said all that I completely agree with you that you can't just walk and bike everywhere all year around, especially for people who have kids or long distances (I bike almost 4km for the record). But I do think that many people are just LAZY and would prefer to hop in their car to drive often less than a couple of km... A lot of the time I really can't blame them, the public transit in this city isn't amenable to not driving a car. The bus just isn't convenient, and that's why I think we need to push for better public transit. It's one of those situations where you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't!

As far as the comment posted by babo "There is perfectly good cycling infrastructure in place already. Why do cycling path proponents feel the need to lobby to duplicate infrastructure and segregate cyclists off the roads where they belong? For every bicycle on the roads, that's one less car on the roads." where do you bike? On the Meewasin? I don't appreciate riding in the often narrow gap between parked cars and traffic, or having cars pretend I'm not there even when I obey all of the traffic laws as if I was driving a car! I do agree that we need a cultural shift towards seeing bikes less as toys and more as a legitimate and feasible alternative to cars... dedicated cycle lanes and secure parking would be a great asset to our city.

kgc087 · #**5788** Posted **Apr 28, 2009, 6:46 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by madsad

^^^

Cars are not here to stay. Car culture needs cheap energy, and we all know we are running out of that. They will die off. We are witnessing another function of this with the collapse of N American auto industry, they will die off too. There will be no hypercar running on pee, or whatever, that will allow us to drive without consequence.

The question is: have we built cities that can function without cars? Considering Saskatoon's climate, in particular, it is obvious we have not.

Oh, and, uh, I'll take the socialism, thanks.

I completley agree. The auto era is dieing and really this is a good thing for everyone except the auto companies. Transit and public oriented development is denser which provides more amenities and wealth within a smaller area. Driving will no longer be necessary b/c everything you need is easily available. Saskatoon will be unique from other cities in the sense we can do this as well we will have to come up with an innovative way to do it to ensure peoiples comfort during the winter months. Maybe we will see beautiful indoor shopping streets like those in Milan.

The_Bachelor · #**5789** Posted **Apr 28, 2009, 7:06 PM**

We'll need roads forever. Personal transportation isn't going anywhere, the only thing that will eventually change is how they are powered. There will always be a big demand for a vehicle that you take where you want to go whenever you want to go there, without relying on any outside service or risking freezing to death.

Besides all of north america's cities are built around the car, that isn't going to change in a long long time.

Arguing for cycling and walking in Saskatoon's climate is a waste of breath. You will always need personal vehicle when you live in a sub-arctic climate.

Temperance · #**5790** Posted **Apr 28, 2009, 8:10 PM**

The urban planning in Saskatoon is terrible in many ways. They just keep building new neighbourhoods rather than doing infill in existing space or increasing density. This not only makes it completely a car-dominated city but it is also a very expensive way to build a city (new utilities required rather than making use of existing infrastructure). Calgary is a great example of how not to build a city. I hope saskatoon wakes up before it is too late. I look at the transportation infrastructure of the netherlands and think cities like saskatoon could learn a whole lot. I'm not just talking about pedestrian and bicycle lanes but also the bus, tram, and train system. I guess wanting a liveable and rationally-planned city makes me a communist

I would love to see some pedestrianised streets downtown. It is hilarious to me when people say pedestrian streets don't work. I've lived all over the world and seen many fantastic (and busy) pedestrian streets that are the social and commercial heart of the city.

swilley · #**5791** Posted **Apr 28, 2009, 8:40 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Temperance

The urban planning in Saskatoon is terrible in many ways. They just keep building new neighbourhoods rather than doing infill in existing space or increasing density.

Just wondering how "they" could do it differently? (by they, I assume you mean the city) There is a huge market for new suburban type houses, the city is filling that need for about 100k per average lot. Infill opportunities for single family homes are limited and expensive. Not everyone wants to live in a high-rise, townhouse, or apartment style condo. I am not saying I agree with the sprawl we are seeing, but being in Western Canada, along with our vast space and attitudes, this is the reality.

macca · #**5792** Posted **Apr 28, 2009, 8:49 PM**

There are rules and regulations concerning nearly all things "everyone wants". Is it the inherent right of every individual to own a large home on a large lot and a personal vehicle?

Not to descend into a libertarian argument. However people liking and wanting something is not the sole determinant of whether not it is "good" or even permissable.

But the reality is there are many wonderful ways to "do it differently", and the city has experimented with them (Willowgrove, for example). These experiments are typically half-formed, and as such will likely produce results that are less than stellar.

Wyku · #**5793** Posted **Apr 28, 2009, 9:13 PM**

I'm with the mindset that the car going away anytime soon in our climate isn't likely, regardless of suburban sprawl or infill, or whatever the "right" method of controlling the growth of our city is. The cold is obviously a big issue, but I would think that the heat in the summer months would also be a deterant to a lot of people. Granted, our summers have been pretty luckluster in the heat department of late (

), but getting all sweated up on your ride to work (hot or cold) isn't ideal for a lot of people. Having said that, I think adding infrastucture to aid those who DO want to pursue cycling as a preferred mode of transportation, be it for 6-months or all year-round, would be a positive thing. I don't see it making a huge difference to the quality of our roads either way though.

The current downfall of the North American Auto industry isn't a function of people being fed up with cars, it's due to poor business practices on many different levels. People who have stopped buying N.A. cars haven't given up on the automobile, they've simply shifted their buying practices to companies who they feel give better value, mainly from non-N.A. manufacturer's--many of which actually make their vehicles here which blurs the lines further

.

Wyku · #**5794** Posted **Apr 28, 2009, 9:16 PM**

To get back on topic a bit, does anyone know if a company has bought the land at the old pump house at River Landing? I drive by it every now and then and see they've been developing it and making what looks like a patio or observation deck of some sort on top of it. I know one of the city planners had hoped someone would turn it into a nice restaurant or bar or something, but I'm not sure if anyone went through with it or if the City is actually doing the work.

Also, has the West side walking path section up through to Victoria Park (past the pump house in question) been opened yet?

midnightrambler · #**5795** Posted **Apr 28, 2009, 9:34 PM**

^^^^

Okay. Now you see how a small comment about the sad state of our roads turns into an argument about people driving cars. Which then turns into a conversation about mass transportation with the implied overhanging argument of "climate change" from CO2 etc....

The thing that really applies to this thread is the construction of new roads.

Top 5 In City Limits that need to be reconstructed or increased capacity (twinned).

1) Spadina. (There is a very large Biking and Walking area right beside the road so people do have the option) It is a signature road for the city, probably one of the only decent drives there is. (Yes people still hop in their cars and drive around for fun.)
2) Waneskeiwan Rd. (Traffic Volume has trashed this road) Argued that it ought to be reconstructed and twinned.
3) Idywyld (The had to dig up a few holes in the winter, and they need to repave.) I nealry lost my 25mpg import car in. Nuff said.
4) I'd like to see the city fix some of the industrial roads. Especially between 33rd St and Circle Dr. ASL Paving is right there and they could hammer out a recontruct in no time flat.
5) Lorne Ave.

Those are my 5 picks. I am sure you all have a bunch. I am going to keep driving and driving is going to keep paying taxes.

You guys can rant and rave all you want about taking the bus and biking and walking but it isn't going to change reality. Government isn't going to change reality. Even the car companies declaring chapter 11 or whatever isnt going to change reality.

You can continue to walk, or bike, or take the bus. I will continue to drive, so what are you going to do about it?

WhereverIRoam · #**5796** Posted **Apr 28, 2009, 9:47 PM**

It's all about balance. Those of you that think that cars are on their way out, stop kidding yourselves. This isn't Europe or even remotely comfortable in the winter. Cars are needed. However, use of public transit is on the increase, but until there are more buses, more bus stops, and maybe a rapid transit system such as an LRT, most will still use their cars since they are much more convenient.

I use the bus everyday and drive a few days a week to get to work. It takes 1 hour to get to work on the bus, I did this for about 5 months before I bought a vehicle. It now takes me 10 minutes. To get downtown, I take the bus since parking is atrocious. I'll say it again, it's about balance.

joelpiecowye · #**5797** Posted **Apr 28, 2009, 10:02 PM**

cars are here to stay, they might die down but in this climate people will continue to drive cars, i do agree that we can use bikelanes but roads will rule this city for at least 20 years. and truely i am fine and happy with that, you may like waiting for transit and biking in winter but i like driving my car

anyways wyku the pumphouse is getting renovated here is a drawing of it

http://www.riverlanding.ca/project_update/phase2/riverfront/pdfs/pumphouse.pdf

on the riverlanding website it says it will have a viewpoint, commercial area(maybe a restaurant?) and public displays

socialisthorde · #**5798** Posted **Apr 28, 2009, 11:44 PM**

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