LOS ANGELES | Downtown Project Rundown 3.0

[LACienega]

After traveling to many cities around the world, I always seem to be more content with Los Angeles. I love my world class city.

[LosAngelesBeauty]

^ We have expectations that we are used to getting here (and take for granted) in LA that may not be present in other great cities. We expect good weather, good/cheap food, a variety of neighborhoods, racial/ethnic/etc. diversity, etc. If those qualities are very important to you, you start to figure out that LA really is unique in that regard. My friend, who "hated" LA, moved away to China and lived in Shanghai and Beijing for 3 years now. She flies back to LA frequently (like every 3-4 months) and now her "disdain" for LA is completely gone! She now says she LIKES LA (OMG!!! Likes from Hated?) and is considering moving back to LA when she gets married in June 2009.

This story is not unique. I have several other friends I know that have moved away from LA, only to return. One moved back from Atlanta after spending 2 years there. He also HATED LA (actually he lived in Long Beach), and is now glad to be back in SoCal.

[edluva]

this self masturbatory thread is so encouraging!!! LA is so great that we need to hear ourselves reaffirm it to ourselves, in order to stave off the naysayers and doubters. but that's the norm for any great city and it's an indicator of exactly how great our LA is!!!! OMG!!!

we're WAY better than atlanta and beijing. HELL YES!!! CAPS LOCKED!!!

[Just-In-Cali]

I think we all agree that this kind of blather should be ignored from here on out. So much anger at other's happiness...is disturbing.

[towersla]

Walking over to the Disney Hall in a few moments to watch Esa-Pekka conduct. Then onto philharmonic's party at the Edison. Ever since moving downtown 9 years ago, I can honestly report that living here just gets better and better.

[LosAngelesBeauty]

^ I'm glad to hear that towersla. I remember bumping into you at those Grand Ave. Project meetings and even though that hasn't even broken ground yet, it's good to see that many other developments have taken place to give you, a downtown resident, a better life. I am eager to see enough retail/shops open in Downtown LA to give it a more normal feel. It really just lacks SHOPPING options for me at least. Well, and parks. Oh, and can we get rid of Macy's Plaza???

[ocman]

Originally Posted by towersla

Walking over to the Disney Hall in a few moments to watch Esa-Pekka conduct. Then onto philharmonic's party at the Edison. Ever since moving downtown 9 years ago, I can honestly report that living here just gets better and better.

I envy you. I'm not going see one of his last concerts with LAP (though it probably won't really be his last). Even with Dudamel taking his place, it's going to be a huge loss to Los Angeles classical music. Be prepared to see the audience crying their eyes out.

[dktshb]

Originally Posted by edluva

this self masturbatory thread is so encouraging!!! LA is so great that we need to hear ourselves reaffirm it to ourselves, in order to stave off the naysayers and doubters. but that's the norm for any great city and it's an indicator of exactly how great our LA is!!!! OMG!!!

we're WAY better than atlanta and beijing. HELL YES!!! CAPS LOCKED!!!

LOL, For some reason when I read your posts I think of that character Ellen Page played in that movie Juno. Hypothetically, I think I would miss LA if I ever left it, but I would miss it a whole lot more if it was developed like San Francisco.

[ChrisLA]

Originally Posted by ocman

I envy you. I'm not going see one of his last concerts with LAP (though it probably won't really be his last). Even with Dudamel taking his place, it's going to be a huge loss to Los Angeles classical music. Be prepared to see the audience crying their eyes out.

Yes it looks like I won't make it to any of Esa Pekka last performance as the conductor of the LAP as I was hoping too. At this rate it doesn't look like I'll get to any this season. Anyway I had a friend who used to lived at the Promenade. I too would enjoy the walk across the street to the Disney Hall, oh how I missed her living in that building.

[citywatch]

Originally Posted by LosAngelesBeauty

Yes, I love Pasadena and am very happy living here. If DTLA could feel like Pasadena, then we should be so lucky.

And I'm gonna say that your positive tude towards that hood isn't based on things like transit, assuming the gold line isn't considered, by you or most others, as making pasadena way more train friendly than other hoods in SoCa.

And I don't think your happiness towards that part of LA (or So Ca) is the exception to the rule, esp true when applied to ppl who rate their favorite hoods----& may also give thumbs up to dena (but not rosemead, canoga pk or Montebello or lomita)----but also prefer traveling around in a car or anything but the MTA's slow buses.

So a good reaction is based on a whole lot of other things. of course, dena would be even better if it had the red line, blue line & green line running down (or under) every other street. But it can still good marks even without that.

That's why I think if ppl believe the magic bullet to turning around DTLA is transit, transit, transit----& they tend to downplay the need for other changes & improvements----they're missing the fundamentals, or maybe the bigger picture----& setting themselves up for alot of disappointment.

Originally Posted by towersla

Walking over to the Disney Hall in a few moments to watch Esa-Pekka conduct. Then onto philharmonic's party at the Edison. Ever since moving downtown 9 years ago, I can honestly report that living here just gets better and better.

In some important ways, the hood is better today than its ever been, or better than it was over 50 yrs ago.

L.A.- the West Coast's culture capital

Mark Rudio
April 15, 5:43 PM
examiner.com

San Francisco has a long tradition of deriding Los Angeles as a vapid wasteland deviod of any culture. While this was never likely to be true, what is true is that Los Angeles is now the cultural capital of the West Coast - a city second only to New York as the most vibrant place for culture in the U.S.

I won't need to extoll the virtues of our local cutlural scene to those of you already participating in it. But if you really enjoy culture - the performing arts, music, museums, art, nightlife and food - then you would be well-served by heading south a couple of times a year.

I just spent the better half of last week in downtown L.A. and without even leaving the neighborhood saw two performances at LA Opera, attended one of the best concerts I've ever seen at Walt Disney Hall, had a blast at the provacative and lively Spring Street Art Walk, ate great food in innovative restaurants and had cocktails in some pretty awesome bars. If I had more time and money I would have also seen Leonard Cohen, attended the theater and checked out a few museums, as they were all right there too.

[ChrisLA]

L.A.- the West Coast's culture capital

Mark Rudio
April 15, 5:43 PM
examiner.com

San Francisco has a long tradition of deriding Los Angeles as a vapid wasteland deviod of any culture. While this was never likely to be true, what is true is that Los Angeles is now the cultural capital of the West Coast - a city second only to New York as the most vibrant place for culture in the U.S.

I won't need to extoll the virtues of our local cutlural scene to those of you already participating in it. But if you really enjoy culture - the performing arts, music, museums, art, nightlife and food - then you would be well-served by heading south a couple of times a year.

I just spent the better half of last week in downtown L.A. and without even leaving the neighborhood saw two performances at LA Opera, attended one of the best concerts I've ever seen at Walt Disney Hall, had a blast at the provacative and lively Spring Street Art Walk, ate great food in innovative restaurants and had cocktails in some pretty awesome bars. If I had more time and money I would have also seen Leonard Cohen, attended the theater and checked out a few museums, as they were all right there too.

Funny you post this because I see this with some of my family from the Bay Area. They would actually fly down to LA for a live theater performance rather than attend the same show in San Francisco. They sometimes will also visit New York for such things as well.

[edluva]

Originally Posted by ThreeHundred

Los Angeles is flawed like every city on earth.

you're right. i mean, look at lagos. pshhh!

the great thing about LA is we have way more aggregate culture in our metro than even SF or Boston....SF or Boston!

don't even start with our weather. pshhh!

and our skyline has got to be, what, third or fourth largest after houston? it's even bigger than london's.....london's!

and best of all, there's no place like LA. i mean NY, paris, london, tokyo, SF, and other cities all have that same thing with people everywhere, narrow streets, and crowded downtowns. LA is the only one that doesn't follow their footsteps and does its own thing!!! it doesn't even think of those other places. and nor do i, an angeleno til i die!!!

[edluva]

Originally Posted by dktshb

LOL, For some reason when I read your posts I think of that character Ellen Page played in that movie Juno. Hypothetically, I think I would miss LA if I ever left it, but I would miss it a whole lot more if it was developed like San Francisco.

she's really cute. i adore her in that movie. i guess my sarcasm isn't exactly subtle is it.

you're right. i wouldn't wish LA was developed exactly like SF. like any other city it needs to find it's own character while growing in an ecologically sustainable way. usually though the end result does end up being dense, urban, and walkable regardless. and i'm definitely not going to miss the poverty, empty sidewalks, or faux-urban proxies for genuine urbanism.

and going by RALossi's account, it appears downtown's showing itself for what it really is. a rough neighborhood which is still climbing out of its decades of relegated status. to think we would even have any delusions to the contrary when it is surrounded by miles of rough neighborhoods on all sides is a wonder. i thought his statement on public agencies was spot on.

[tommaso]

Originally Posted by citywatch

[/b]And I'm gonna say that your positive tude towards that hood isn't based on things like transit, assuming the gold line isn't considered, by you or most others, as making pasadena way more train friendly than other hoods in SoCa.

And I don't think your happiness towards that part of LA (or So Ca) is the exception to the rule, esp true when applied to ppl who rate their favorite hoods----& may also give thumbs up to dena (but not rosemead, canoga pk or Montebello or lomita)----but also prefer traveling around in a car or anything but the MTA's slow buses.

So a good reaction is based on a whole lot of other things. of course, dena would be even better if it had the red line, blue line & green line running down (or under) every other street. But it can still good marks even without that.

That's why I think if ppl believe the magic bullet to turning around DTLA is transit, transit, transit----& they tend to downplay the need for other changes & improvements----they're missing the fundamentals, or maybe the bigger picture----& setting themselves up for alot of disappointment.



[/b]In some important ways, the hood is better today than its ever been, or better than it was over 50 yrs ago.


[/i]

I understand what you're saying and I think it's fair to say that L.A. has some cultural diversity and that includes the arts. Yes, downtown L.A. has museums as well as a variety of other cultural options. And of course if you really want to, you can take a train from downtown to Hollywood, a bus to Beverly Hills, Santa Monica and Venice and a taxi cab once you're in the general area you plan to be in. So, quite honestly, even when you're trying to get to a concert or a meeting, traveling from one place to another in L.A. is possible. But, it requires patience and can be time consuming.

I don't have the bus or train schedules right in front of me, but I'm sure the system doesn't run 24 hours a day. And when I say the system I mean the entire system, not just specific bus or train lines, but the entire system. And it would be foolish of me to say that I can personally live a fulfilling or functional life in L.A. without a car. The reasons for this are quite simple. Whether I'm going out for a burrito, going to visit a loved one at the hospital or going to a park, there is no way on earth I can accomplish all of these tasks without a car. The city is just way to spread out. And even if my entire life existed in downtown (Job, apartment, family, friends, activities), I still would require a car at some point. It's not like if I live in downtown, all of a sudden everything important in Los Angeles will move to downtown because I refuse to drive.

Essentially, everything great in Los Angeles outside of downtown will not shut down their operations and move to downtown just to make life livable for me without a car. And of course, there are natural limitations to what can and can't move. For example, I can't move the beach and the Santa Monica mountains to downtown. Downtown Los Angeles should have been built along the Pacific Ocean (this doesn't mean you can't have nice suburbs along the Ocean, surrounding downtown). But, we know that L.A. was planned differently.

So, now L.A. becomes a city of choices. Where do I work? How close do I need to live to work? Where do my loved ones live? And how close do I need to live to them? And where do my activities take place? The answers to these questions almost always require a car. I know that when I ask these same questions for New York City, the answer almost always includes a subway or possibly a bus or a cab. Two of the most important logistical questions are: what form of travel should I use to get from point A to point B and how long is the travel time?

The question is not: is L.A. better than N.Y. or vice versa? That's a non issue. The real issue is coming up with a reasonable and effective answer to these logistical questions and living with the consequences. If driving a car is necessary at times, then it is necessary. And there may be times I use public transit. Then, maybe a multi-prong approach can be an effective approach. I know driving can be a nightmare in L.A. and the traffic cannot be alleviated with more highway lanes or more highways. The only answer to this problem is building fast and efficient subways. Now is the time to connect L.A., and a subway to the sea is a good start!

In addition to the subways, I want to see higher density areas emerge all over Los Angeles. This is happening, as we are seeing 6 story buildings and some even taller replace older housing or empty lots. But, raising the density level of neighborhoods in L.A. is not the complete answer. I personally support and believe in mixed-use residential buildings as a piece to the puzzle in solving L.A.'s social urban problems. Moving forward, I think 6+ story buildings with ground floor retail have to be a part of the plan.

I'm sick and tired of seeing city block after city block of residential areas with no retail and no grocery stores for a square mile (sometimes more). This annoying scenario repeats itself over and over again in L.A. and a consequence of this development pattern is: it makes this city un-walkable. I'm not about to walk for a half hour one way to get a cup of water. But, that's the reality of living in many parts of L.A. Some neighborhoods will fight changing this pattern and will remain predominantly suburban and car dependent. Conversely, a minority of L.A. neighborhoods have the potential to urbanize and densify, thus potentially becoming walkable and car independent.

Breaking the cycle of poor development patterns that do not include retail and grocery on L.A. city blocks will be difficult. But, ultimately L.A. residents, politicians and real-estate developers will determine the fate of the transition from L.A. 'The mega-suburb' to, L.A. 'The developing city with many suburbs that refuse join in and act like a city'. Which L.A. do you represent and how do you want the future of L.A. to unfold?

[edluva]

^you're preaching to the choir. yup, you hit all the main issues, minus pollution of course. and driving 15-20 minutes through traffic to do groceries is just stupid. to celebrate the downtown ralph's like it's the second coming. "no city's perfect". huh. yeah. at least we've got art-walk, and ed hardy.

and your desire for density, well density won't happen without the infrastructure to support it. no mass transit = no density.

basically la is fucked without mass transit. it's as simple as that.

[citywatch]

Originally Posted by tommaso

The city is just way to spread out. And even if my entire life existed in downtown (Job, apartment, family, friends, activities), I still would require a car at some point. It's not like if I live in downtown, all of a sudden everything important in Los Angeles will move to downtown because I refuse to drive.

All of this is made far worse cuz too many ppl, for any number of reasons, refuse to move closer to where they work, or work closer to where they live.

Now that's perfectly excusable if a person is facing economic or logistical problems. IOW, I'm aware the average person often doesn't have enough $$ to pick & choose from a million different places where they can move to, whether it's an apt, condo or house.

And alot of ppl do have to do back flips in finding a job----made far worse by the current recession----or accomodating the needs of their boss or manager. So if ppl are ordered by their boss to start working out of the field office that's 70 miles away from where they live, they either quit on the spot or grin & bear it.

However, I'm sure there are thousands & thousands of ppl who pack our crowded fwys on any given day, & drive hundreds of miles per wk, who have a lot more flexibility in choosing where they live, where they work. I'm sure alot of them could live in a hood like DTLA---& reduce their time & miles on the road----but they choose not to.

Why?

Maybe for some of the reasons that ralossi has experienced over the past several months, which are factors far worse today (inc crime, homelessness, vandalism) than they were over 50 yrs ago.

But lots of ppl started moving out of or avoiding DT over 50 yrs ago.

Why?

Well, someone mentioned DT being "surrounded by miles of rough hoods," which never were all that nice even from the beginning, even when they were alot newer & younger.

I've seen pics taken in the early 1900s of what's now called south pk & I've seen old pics of bunker hill. And alot of what I see in those pics doesn't look too good or too impressive. IOW, the hood seemed to be mostly fugly, or full of shack type bldgs & houses a loong time ago. Not the type of construction you'd associate with a big time town full of $$ & ppl with $$, which ppl will love being a part of, & fight to stay a part of.

Downtown Los Angeles should have been built along the Pacific Ocean (this doesn't mean you can't have nice suburbs along the Ocean, surrounding downtown).

I've heard some ppl say over the yrs that DT should have been located nearer the coast, & that if it had, it wouldn't be in, or wouldn't have gotten into, such bad shape. Some of that is true. But is Pasadena near the ocean? Is Bev Hills near the ocean? Are some of the nicer hoods scattered throughout midtown LA, inc Hancock pk, the sunset strip & west Hollywood, near the ocean?

The only answer to this problem is building fast and efficient subways. Now is the time to connect L.A., and a subway to the sea is a good start!

Improving transit should have been started yrs ago. but history is history, & big $$ are big $$, & govt agencies (inc the MTA) move slowly. That means the goal of a really good transit system won't see the light of day til most of us are in nursing homes or 6 ft under.

So for anyone who thinks LA's present & future (esp DT's) won't be good or nice without the creation of fantastic transit, they're setting themselves up for a big fall & major disappointment.

I'm sick and tired of seeing city block after city block of residential areas with no retail and no grocery stores for a square mile (sometimes more).

I'm not really arguing against that point, but I'll say I can think of alot more times when I'm driving through the various hoods of the city & my immediate reaction is not that there's no retail or grocery stores. No, my gut reaction often is "uh, this hood sure is rundown & sad! Look at all the tagging! Look at all how dirty & broken down the sidewalks are! Look at all the vacant bldgs or trashy storefronts! Everything sure is fugly & depressing! Get me outta here!!!"

[dktshb]

Originally Posted by RAlossi

It's not just that. It's the safety factor, with all these projects in such proximity to the center of the narcotics trade in the city. Hell, the Civic Center might as well be the Prison District with the insanity at Twin Towers and Men's Central Jail - Oh, look, a shiny new women's jail! Just what Downtown really needs.

It unnerves me that I got physically threatened by a guy calling my husband and me "Faggot" -- and finding ourselves completely alone on an empty, dark sidewalk in the evening. God forbid anyone actually leave their loft after 6:00pm!

It unnerves me that I see Crips and 18th Street Gang tagging in the neighborhood more and more. Then two people got shot on Skid Row the other morning.

It unnerves me that I got mugged walking down Main Street -- while I was walking home with two friends! They had insisted on walking me home, luckily for me. We didn't get two blocks before it happened.

It unnerves me that criminals get released from Twin Towers and just make their way down into the Historic Core -- then proceed to threaten me for not giving them money. This is all in addition to the normal everyday harassment and racist, homophobic bullsh*t that comes with living Downtown.

I don't want this thread to stray from development - just had to get it off my chest. This isn't normal, and as you can probably tell, I'm beginning to lose it.
Before, things like this were acceptable (ha!) because of the possibility of change. I love Downtown, I just don't know how much more of this I can stand.

I find it a worthy topic on the downtown development thread. I am considering moving back to Hollywood and was even considering giving Downtown a try so I appreciate your honest assessment. For Downtown to be the neighborhood we want it to be we're probably looking at a couple of decades and that's only if the first urban pioneers such as yourself stick it out. Hollywood still seems like a more sensible de facto center for the city of Los Angeles which is really kind of pathetic if you linger on that notion.

[Quixote]

^ What kind of a neighborhood do we "want it to be?"

[edluva]

a real one, i think

[213]

Originally Posted by edluva

a real one, i think

It is getting there, albeit in increments. I moved to the Financial District (6th & Hope) two years ago and, though initially somewhat frustrated by the area's limited retail and services, am fairly amazed by the speed / extent to which gaps have filled. Within a five-block radius I now have a major grocer, several convenience stores and a slew of new bars & eateries. These, combined with the area's existing retail (Macys Plaza, City National Plaza, Rite Aid, Kinkos, post offices, etc.) and those slated to come online -- Regal Cinemas is a personal can't-wait -- give me a critical mass of relevant, walkable amenities that fairly exceeds what I had near downtown Culver City (itself a work in progress over many years).

Neighborhoods are also comprised of neighbors; my downtown neighbors are generally much more social, cohesive and community-minded, due perhaps to that living here is a choice not driven strictly by price brackets or the local schools. It certainly isn't a choice to avoid urban problems. Downtowners appear to share a strong personal interest in, and devotion to, their area despite its challenges -- a dynamic I never really saw on the west side. This bodes well for continued neighborhood / community development, in ways not always tracked by conventional meters.

As a whole, downtown has progressed immensely in just the past 10 to 15 years -- not a long time in development terms. The Arts District, where once I worked on days-long film shoots of car chases and gun battles, is now a populated neighborhood unsuited for such activity. Vacant office buildings that survived on film location fees now house residents and businesses. Friends of mine for whom a trip downtown was fairly dreaded, usually compelled by jury service or such, now follow downtown events and attend avidly. Central Division claims the lowest per-capita rate of reported street crime in the city, thanks in part to re-strategized policing and DCBID security patrols.

Improvement can never happen quickly or effectively enough for any genuine urban enthusiast, myself included. But DTLA is finding its way there, however haltingly, and I'm inclined to stick around for it.