Provo MSA Development Thread - Page 71

i-215 · #**1401** Posted **Apr 4, 2009, 7:21 AM**

Speaking of alternative fuels, I just got out of my university transportation planning class that was fascinating.

The professor made an excellent point. She said the real problem with gasoline is not the fuel itself but the fact that everybody uses it. As soon as we all switch to an "alternative" we'll find that fuel/method's side effects come out - and may be as bad (or worse) than those we experience with gasoline.

Still, she said we need to explore alternatives because oil isn't going to last forever. But I could see what she means. Hydrogen cars will raise humidity which will change ecology. It seems silly, but most gasoline cars now release pretty much just CO2 which is actually very clean. It's too bad it has climate effects, or we'd be in great shape.

urbanboy · #**1402** Posted **Apr 4, 2009, 7:34 AM**

I'm pretty sure the point of the hydrogen fuel cell vehicle is to distract our attention from the fact that electric vehicles exist. I think perhaps that big oil lobbyists have promoted the development of the hydrogen powered vehicle, because they know it's either impossible, or unrealistic. And in the mean time, they can stay in business. Interesting fact: At one time in automobile history, there were more electric cars on the road than gas powered automobiles.

delts145 · #**1403** Posted **Apr 4, 2009, 10:46 AM**

Well hopefully, the new Tesla just coming off the assembly line will do extremely well. They have the sports car that is produced in Albuquerque, and the new 5 passenger, which was just shown in California over the past week, and will be assembled at a plant in California. I agree that the electric vehicle is the most exciting prospect. They've been making some excellent improvements with the battery as of late.

Urban_logic · #**1404** Posted **Apr 5, 2009, 6:10 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by delts145

Wait a minute now, I understood this was a natural gas facility. Granted, natural gas is not renewable, but at least it's relitively very clean, and far better than many other options. At least as far as clean energy, for the largest amount of customers served bang. I consider Natural Gas as a huge improvement over coal, or even the new, "cleaner coal," especially for that location. I wish we could all just convert our vehicles to CNG as quickly as possible.

The problem with clean coal is that it is not clean. Sure, they take the pollution out of the air, but it doesn't just disapear. It is converted from one waste into another that must be put somewhere. We are dealing with the negative by-products of coal either way. Plus it is 20% more expensive than regular coal burning plants. I say we get off it completely!! The coal companies are pushing all this "clean coal" crap because it keeps them in business but gets people behind it.

Here's a good video on the matter:

http://zaproot.com/2009/01/how-dirty-is-clean-coal-zaproot-070/

If that doesn't work, here is the youtube version of the same video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7RrgMPzGF0

I did not know that was a natural gas plant. I just assumed by the nastiness of the smoke coming out that it was dirty.

i-215 · #**1405** Posted **Apr 5, 2009, 6:41 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanboy

I'm pretty sure the point of the hydrogen fuel cell vehicle is to distract our attention from the fact that electric vehicles exist. I think perhaps that big oil lobbyists have promoted the development of the hydrogen powered vehicle, because they know it's either impossible, or unrealistic. And in the mean time, they can stay in business. Interesting fact: At one time in automobile history, there were more electric cars on the road than gas powered automobiles.

That last part - my professor pointed that out. She said had we spent 80 years developing electric motors, we'd have really awesome electric cars today. But we developed gasoline, which wasn't a terrible choice given the technology at the time, but as a result we have really awesome gasoline engines.

The key to electric is finding a power source for charging the cars. If we are using fossil fuels to generate electricity to power cars, we'd do better just keeping the gasoline cars. But if we can use solar and wind to charge our cars, it could work.

Anyway - her point was valid: We need to study alternatives because someday we will not have enough oil. But we can't compare petrol's bad attributes to an alternative's good attributes. It's not a fair comparison. But we should compare the good and bad of each fuel to the good and bad of the alternative.

As a result, gasoline is actually quite good. Most emissions are only CO2 now, which is good news at least as far as human health goes. Other alternatives may have less carbon emissions, but may emit other gasses that may be bad for people.

But gasoline has an iffy future. There are carbon-emission issues. So, we can't just keep doing what we're doing.

Future Mayor · #**1406** Posted **Apr 6, 2009, 4:11 PM**

Could they produce an electric car that is charged through wind or solar at home, possibly solar on the road and design a wind charging turbine into the design? That would allow the car to produce power from wind, as it drives. hmmmmmm

jtrent77 · #**1407** Posted **Apr 6, 2009, 10:58 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

Could they produce an electric car that is charged through wind or solar at home, possibly solar on the road and design a wind charging turbine into the design? That would allow the car to produce power from wind, as it drives. hmmmmmm

The amount of energy produced by putting a wind turbine on a car so that you generated energy as you drove wouldn't be enough to make the idea feasible--sure you might be able to put a generator on there that could power a watch or something, but turbines aren't exactly light and adding that much weight to the car would slow it down considerably (not to mention the nearer and nearer you get to producing the same amount of energy you are using the nearer and nearer you are to breaking the natural law of 'energy can not be created nor destroyed')

i-215 · #**1408** Posted **Apr 7, 2009, 6:02 AM**

The trouble with "wind as you drive" is robbing Peter to pay Paul. It takes energy to generate the "wind" you feel as you drive. And capturing it would only put a drag on the car requiring more energy to fight the turbine. Since the turbine doesn't operate at 100% efficiency, it generates a net loss of power.

They could put a solar panel on the car while you drive. The '12 Prius was supposed to have one - it may generate enough to power the radio. Maybe the AC fan.

We are making progress, but alternatives will result in decades of slow and steady progress. We're in better shape than we were in 1999, and in 2019 we will be in even better shape.

delts145 · #**1409** Posted **Apr 7, 2009, 1:38 PM**

Hmmm.... I put this on the SLC development thread this morning, I think I'll put it over here also, since it's not only SLC development related, but also answers some of the important questions you guys are asking. I would be pretty stoked to see GreenStar get an electric car plant going in Utah. To think this guy has had this 100 mile vehicle sitting around for 15 years is hilarious if not maddening!

Councilman wants Salt Lake City to accommodate recharging electric cars

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705295673/SLC-infrastructure-for-electric-cars.html

...City Councilman Soren Simonsen plans to soon introduce a set of four initiatives aimed at putting basic infrastructure in place for electric cars...

..."We're at a really good time to take some initiative," he said. "There are a still a lot of unknowns. What is known is that we have a growing interest — I would say it has become quite large — to look at alternative fuels and alternative transportation..."

Kyle Dansie looks over the solar panels on his electric car. The city may consider installing plug-in parking meters. (Jeffrey D. Allred, Deseret News)

All-green, all-go — electric car charges up spectators at raceway

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,705295675,00.html

Brooks Agnew shows off a fully electric vehicle at the Rocky Mountain Raceway in West Valley on Monday. Kristin Murphy, Deseret News

...Touted as the "plug and play vehicle" this all-electric car can go 100 miles without a charge and reach speeds up to 90 mph.

"This car is ready for prime time," declared Brooks Agnew, vice president of engineering for Salt Lake City-based Green Star Products, the car's developer...

..."This is robust and simple to drive, but it is not a golf cart with doors."

Fueled by the optimism Green Star will be successful in its pursuit of a $200 million grant from the Department of Energy made available through the 2009 Recovery Act, Agnew is eying Utah as the possible home for a production plant.

He wants to turn out 30,000 of the cars a year, and has plans for an all-electric pickup truck that will seat four people. The cars will sell for under $20,000...

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delts145 · #**1410** Posted **Apr 12, 2009, 12:12 PM**

Stalled projects: Utah County

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705296663/Stalled-projects-Utah-County.html

Construction of Orem's Midtown Village halted in 2008. The developer couldn't get financing to finish the project. Stuart Johnson, Deseret News

Stuart Johnson, Deseret News
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blm3034L!fe · #**1411** Posted **Apr 14, 2009, 1:02 AM**

That's not good, when I was in Utah last summer I seen this development, and if those photo's are recent? It almost looks about the same as I seen it last time I was in town. Maybe the developer should have developed this in phases?

Wasatch_One · #**1412** Posted **Apr 14, 2009, 4:22 PM**

This has become an eyesore (and probably would have been anyway, had it been completed)

Future Mayor · #**1413** Posted **Apr 14, 2009, 5:54 PM**

I think it will be an eyesore just as you do even when it's complete, until some additional heights rises in the area. I think that is sort of what Orem was hoping would eventually happen anyway. That this project could be the catalyst of some sort of shaping of a downtown. I hope another developer can come on board and finish it up. Better an occupied eyesore than a decaying one, IMO.

arkhitektor · #**1414** Posted **Apr 14, 2009, 6:57 PM**

I was in Cedar Hills this afternoon and took some pictures of the new Wal-Mart there as I got lunch at the Subway inside:

Of course, once you get inside, its basically the same as any other Walmart, except for the fact that there were like 10 open checkstands with no lines at all and cashiers standing there just waiting to check customers out:

SLC Projects · #**1415** Posted **Apr 14, 2009, 8:14 PM**

That's not haft bad. Nicest Walmart I've ever seen.

delts145 · #**1416** Posted **Apr 16, 2009, 12:23 PM**

Dry Cleaning Plant coming to Wasatch Front

Ohio dry-cleaning franchise plans to expand in Utah

http://www.heraldextra.com/content/view/305910/

An East Coast-based dry-cleaning chain is making its debut in Utah with the addition of at least 15 stores over the next three years. Five of those will be located in Utah County.

Loveland, Ohio-based Martinizing Dry cleaning, through its Utah franchisee Scott Ray, will open its firt four stores in Sandy, Bountiful and Centerville as early as this summer. Other locations, each to be staffed by six to 10 workers, are planned in Utah, Salt Lake, Davis, Weber, Washington and Summit counties by 2012.

A 2,000-square-foot dry-cleaning plant will open in Highland by mid-summer of 2010, along with four retail stores, each averaging between 1,000 square feet and 1,100 square feet, in Provo, Orem and American Fork. About 100 new jobs will be added in Utah, including 30 in Utah County...

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delts145 · #**1417** Posted **Apr 17, 2009, 4:28 PM**

Developer wants RDA for Geneva project

Politics » Vineyard's mayor complains the town has been kept out of the loop.

By Donald W. Meyers
The Salt Lake Tribune

Provo » The developers of Geneva Steel's property in northern Utah County believe the project is so important that it should be covered by a county redevelopment agency (RDA).

Dennis Astill, project manager for Anderson Geneva, said the county has the resources and the influence needed to make the mixed-use development work. The designation, he said, would help Anderson finance the $145 million to rehabilitate the 1,700-acre former steel-mill site.

It also would allow Anderson to receive tax incentives to help cover the cost of developing the site.

"It's just too big to handle any other way," Astill said.

But Vineyard Mayor Randy Farnworth said the developer is making an end-run around his town, home of the mill site. He said he was never approached about creating an RDA that would cover the entire property. In fact, the first clue Farnworth and Vineyard got that Anderson was seeking an RDA was when the Legislature passed a law allowing counties to create the agencies.

"We really want what is good," Farnworth said. "But we want to keep our ability to be a town."

Utah County commissioners heard Astill's pitch -- and Farnworth's concerns -- during a work session Tuesday.

Commission Chairman Larry Ellertson said any plan would require that Vineyard be an active participant.

"We'll need to work together to get this moving," Ellertson said.

But Farnworth said Anderson has kept Vineyard out of the loop. He said the company had made various proposals -- including partitioning off parts of the land as special service- and economic-development areas -- with just part of it as an RDA.

And he said the town is ready to step up to that plate. The town was certified in October to have an RDA, and it has retained some of the same planners and consultants Anderson used to work on the developer's St. George Airport project.

Utah County Commissioner Steve White said there are some advantages to having the county form the RDA, such as being able to tap into federal stimulus grants that are only available to counties and cities with populations greater than 100,000.

delts145 · #**1418** Posted **Apr 21, 2009, 12:04 PM**

Saratoga Springs, UDOT at odds over plan to widen road

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,705298442,00.html

A walking path runs along Redwood Road outside a Saratoga Springs subdivision. Residents of the subdivision are upset with UDOT's plan to eliminate the trail to widen the road. (Jason Olson, Deseret News)

SARATOGA SPRINGS — A Saratoga Springs neighborhood has pitted itself against the Utah Department of Transportation after realizing UDOT's plan to widen a road includes paving over a portion of the neighborhood's community park.

"We need the road," said Larry Johnson, a neighborhood resident. "But why do they have to cut into our beautiful landscaped park when there's an open field across the road. It doesn't make sense." ...

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i-215 · #**1419** Posted **Apr 21, 2009, 4:04 PM**

I hate trails like that. They aren't meant to be used as a trail - they are meant to sell houses.

Honestly? Who wants to walk even farther along a curvy trail?

delts145 · #**1420** Posted **Apr 24, 2009, 12:54 PM**

Utah Lake carp cleanup gets $1 million grant

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705299070/Carp-cleanup-gets-1M-grant.html

...Harris said models created by biologists show that as many as 5 million pounds of carp will need to be removed from the lake annually for the next six years to keep it from making a comeback. The carp were introduced into Utah Lake back in 1880 and currently comprise 90 percent of the fish weight in the lake, according to June Sucker Recovery Implementation Program officials.

A 75 percent to 80 percent reduction in the carp population is expected to not only make way for the June sucker to flourish, but also improve the clarity of the lake and help a number of species of native aquatic vegetation become reestablished...

Fisherman Bill Loy Jr. returns with a load of carp he caught in Utah Lake Wednesday just outside Provo. The June Sucker Recovery Program received one million dollars from the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Department. The money will be used to allow Loy eliminate the carp population that has overtaken Utah Lake. Since last October they have fished over one million pounds and hope to increase that to five million pounds a year for five years. George Frey, Associated Press

Fisherman Bill Loy Jr. unloads carp he caught in Utah lake into a bin Wednesday just outside Provo. The June Sucker Recovery Program received one million dollars from the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Department. George Frey, Associated Press

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