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  #181  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2009, 10:22 PM
eternallyme eternallyme is offline
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What are the sizes of those lots?
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  #182  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2009, 11:27 PM
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What are the sizes of those lots?
On average 0.2 ha each. Is there really a demand for this many lots in Greely (the epitome of the geography of nowhere)......
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  #183  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2009, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by highdensitysprawl View Post
On average 0.2 ha each. Is there really a demand for this many lots in Greely (the epitome of the geography of nowhere)......
I would say so, when you consider the region as a whole, many want to live on the larger lots. Densities of 3 units/acre or less (below the minimum density workable for local transit service) belong near the rural villages though.

Suburban areas away from town centres and transit stations IMO should aim for between 4 and 8 units per acre, with higher (in some cases, much higher) densities at those areas.
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  #184  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2009, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by eternallyme View Post
I would say so, when you consider the region as a whole, many want to live on the larger lots. Densities of 3 units/acre or less (below the minimum density workable for local transit service) belong near the rural villages though.

Suburban areas away from town centres and transit stations IMO should aim for between 4 and 8 units per acre, with higher (in some cases, much higher) densities at those areas.
8 should be the bare minimum. There's no reason to have larger lots unless they are on private servicing, and if they're on private servicing, they shouldn't be approved anyway.
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  #185  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2009, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by jeremy_haak View Post
8 should be the bare minimum. There's no reason to have larger lots unless they are on private servicing, and if they're on private servicing, they shouldn't be approved anyway.
Well put....in my line of work, I've turned away private serviced rural lot subdivision proposals. The hinterlands of Ottawa have a wealth of approved but unbuilt ex-urbia repositories for McMansions without any more being put on the books.
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  #186  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2009, 4:28 AM
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from Mattamy's site



It may be different than their Orleans and Richmond developments (at least they show up separately on the pre-registration page http://www.mattamyhomes.com/ottawa/tellus/preregister.asp )

edit: hmm from this press release it could just be a different type/style of home - perhaps the next phase of HMB?

here's the same thing in Milton
http://www.mattamyhomes.com/communities/hawthorne/sub.asp?id=2423
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  #187  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2009, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by highdensitysprawl View Post
Well put....in my line of work, I've turned away private serviced rural lot subdivision proposals. The hinterlands of Ottawa have a wealth of approved but unbuilt ex-urbia repositories for McMansions without any more being put on the books.
That's way below 4 units per acre though (typically 1/2 acre to 4 acre lots) and way too expensive to service, so that is definitely for the rural areas. The lowest densities in urban Ottawa for residential areas I believe are Country Place/Merivale Gardens and Rothwell Heights. In the suburbs, the best example of ultra-low densities is probably the Cedarhill area (northwest of Barrhaven), which is arguably more rural than suburban though.
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  #188  
Old Posted Apr 10, 2009, 2:33 AM
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Minto Manotick approved!
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/Business/Minto+Manotick+development+approved/1483150/story.html

Minto Manotick development approved by OMB


THE OTTAWA CITIZENAPRIL 9, 2009 10:01 PM


OTTAWA-A residential development that would see the village of Manotick nearly double by 2020 has been approved by the Ontario Municipal Board after Ottawa city council rejected it last year. Minto Communities Inc. appealed council’s decision to the OMB, who released their decision Thursday after weeks of testimony and evidence.

The development in question is Minto’s Mahogany community, slated for a 400-acre area south of Manotick’s village core, bordered by Potter Drive, Century Road, Manotick Main Street and First Line Road.

Minto originally proposed upwards of 2,000 new homes to be built in the community, but through the planning process with the city reduced the number of homes to 1,800 and then 1,400.

City council voted 19-5 in February 2008 to reject the development, which they said was inconsistent with the city’s Official Plan and the village’s Secondary Plan to maintain the character of rural villages and reduce suburban sprawl.

City staff endorsed the development on the basis that future infrastructure, particularly transportation and water, planned for Manotick could support a phased in growth of about 100 homes per year, and that Minto’s mixed residential development would benefit the people of Manotick.

In granting Minto’s appeal, the OMB ordered the city to amend its Official Plan and the developer to hand over a pond, creek corridors and other environmentally sensitive aspects of the proposed development area to the city for public use.

© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen
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  #189  
Old Posted Apr 10, 2009, 2:35 AM
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decision should be posted here soon I'm guessing
http://www.omb.gov.on.ca/ecs/CaseDetail.aspx?n=PL080373
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  #190  
Old Posted Apr 10, 2009, 2:39 AM
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OMB gives Minto Greenlight for Manotick Development

By DEREK PUDDICOMBE, Sun Media

The Minto versus Manotick fight is over and Minto has come out victorious.

According to an Ontario Municipal Board decision released today, Minto will be allowed to build 1,400 homes in the rural village in the southern part of the city.

Last spring, Minto appealed city council’s decision to forbid the local developer from proceeding with the controversial development.

Minto had originally proposed to build 1,800 homes, but cut 400 homes from the development in response to public outcry.

Council still wasn’t satisfied and voted against the development.


“We got nothing. Zero,” said Barrhaven Coun. Jan Harder, who wasn’t surprised by the OMB’s 43-page decision.

Harder said the city spent $1.4 million defending council’s decision. She said the OMB warned the city it had little chance of winning and urged it to reach a settlement with Minto.

“I’m absolutely not surprised in any way,” she said. “We were told the city would lose.”

In a note to councillors today, city solicitor Rick O’Connor explained that the OMB was “satisfied that the village would not be ‘overwhelmed’ as the development would take until 2025 to be built out.” He said the board was also satisfied that the design of the development would be compatible with the village core.

Minto had argued its application conformed to provincial and city planning policies.

Jack Stirling, Minto’s vice-president of land development, is pleased with the decision.

He said there are still site plan and zoning applications to be processed, but Minto expects to break ground on the project by spring 2011 at the latest.

It’s a five-phase development that will feature 1,400 homes constructed by 2020.

“It’s what we applied for,” he said.

Rideau-Goulbourn Coun. Glenn Brooks led the charge against the development.

Brooks and many of his constituents argued there was a secondary plan in place that restricted development in the village and that the heritage character of the village must be taken into consideration.

Brooks said he is disappointed the OMB decided Minto planners know more about the village’s character than its residents.

“I don’t think the residents and the city could have done more,” he said. “We stood on principle and unfortunately that was not enough.”

Brooks said his interpretation of the OMB decision is that any municipality that has or is considering drafting a secondary plan is wasting its time.

“But that’s the way the system operates and you have to live with that decision,” he said.

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  #191  
Old Posted Apr 10, 2009, 2:54 AM
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I hereby declare war on the OMB.
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  #192  
Old Posted Apr 10, 2009, 3:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waterloowarrior View Post
decision should be posted here soon I'm guessing
http://www.omb.gov.on.ca/ecs/CaseDetail.aspx?n=PL080373
Waterloo Warrior...I've said it before and I'll say it again, but you are a wealth of information and links of what is going on in Ottawa. Thanks for the heads up on the 'tick.

Putting aside the merits either for or against this development, I think City Council need to take a hard look at fighting at the OMB on matters that their own professional planners are in support of. The track record over the last few years where staff have supported something and Council turned it down and then had to hire outside consultants has been abysmal. This Manotick hearing required getting a planning expert from Port Hope as no planning consultant in Ottawa would take on the file. The planner from Port Hope probably doesn't care as it is a good gig money wise and he isn't likely to have a conflict with other clients in the area.
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  #193  
Old Posted Apr 10, 2009, 2:20 PM
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Is the OMB's decision final, or can they appeal?
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  #194  
Old Posted Apr 10, 2009, 3:27 PM
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Heard on CTV, that the issue surrounding the development near the Carp River in Kanata West has been resolved. I think I've heard there would be 7200 homes built there, so that's a massive development.

Also this does not bode well for the village of Richmond and this is probably good news for the developer or developers who wanted a super-suburb in the southwest - nearly completing the gap between Barrhaven and Kanata.
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  #195  
Old Posted Apr 10, 2009, 3:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Cre47 View Post
Heard on CTV, that the issue surrounding the development near the Carp River in Kanata West has been resolved. I think I've heard there would be 7200 homes built there, so that's a massive development.

Also this does not bode well for the village of Richmond and this is probably good news for the developer or developers who wanted a super-suburb in the southwest - nearly completing the gap between Barrhaven and Kanata.
There is a large tract of land undevelopable south of Bells Corners though.
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  #196  
Old Posted Apr 10, 2009, 5:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eternallyme View Post
Is the OMB's decision final, or can they appeal?
They can appeal to cabinet, ask to OMB to review the decision, and they can appeal to the courts if there was something wrong procedurally etc... these options rarely work and in this circumstance would probably be even less likely (going by media reports)

Last edited by waterloowarrior; Apr 10, 2009 at 5:19 PM.
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  #197  
Old Posted Apr 10, 2009, 5:13 PM
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Developer can build 1,400 Manotick homes by 2020
Minto wins OMB decision
April 10, 2009
BY STAFF
http://www.yourottawasouth.com/OttawaSouth/article/11898

"It is most evident to me, that development trumps community." Manotick residents have lost their bid to keep a local developer from building 1,400 homes in the area.
The Ontario Municipal Board ruled on Thursday, April 9, in favour of builder Minto.

In his weekly column in Ottawa South This Week, Rideau-Goulbourn Coun. Glenn Brooks said he was disappointed in the decision.

“I will be recommending to council that the creation of all community design plans and/or secondary plans cease,” he wrote. “To me, in light of this decision, it is abundantly clear that these community-driven plans are not worth the paper they are written on. Therefore, why waste everyone’s time and money and building expectations that those who live, work and play in their respective communities are in control of how their community will grow and be managed?

“It is most evident to me, that development trumps community,” he added. “Thus, let the development industry not only tell us what is good for us, but allow them as well, to do our planning.”

Brooks added he will be talking to city lawyers to see if they have any course in appealing the decision.

Last winter, the city’s agriculture and rural affairs committee voted to not allow the development. Council agreed with that, voting 19 to 5 on the issue.

The development will see 1,400 homes built by 2020.

Last edited by waterloowarrior; Apr 10, 2009 at 5:27 PM.
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  #198  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2009, 1:43 AM
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Here's the follow-up of yesterday's post

Quote:
Engineer’s report puts Kanata West flood fears to rest

Consultant gives development go ahead if additional water-storage areas created

By Patrick Dare, The Ottawa CitizenApril 10, 2009



OTTAWA-Kanata West, a huge proposed development that’s been stalled for years due to questions about possible flooding, can go ahead if the plans add more areas to store stormwater, a consultant said Thursday.

Don Moss, a water resources engineer with Greenland International, said the city needs to get developers in the Kanata West area to create an additional 85,000 cubic metres of water-storage capacity, equal to between five and seven per cent of the total water volume in the Carp River.

Moss said the additional storage capacity would allow for water modeling done for Kanata West to be off by up to 12 per cent. All development approvals for Kanata West have been halted since the city found problems with the modeling for water during potential storms.

As well, Ontario Environment Minister John Gerretsen has taken a personal interest in the proposed development, ordering a number of conditions to be met before Kanata West approvals are issued.

“It’s an insurance policy,” said Moss, of the additional water-storage recommendation. The additional capacity would be phased in among

all developments at Kanata West and would amount to between 100 and 120 cubic metres of water storage per hectare of construction.

Moss said examples of water-storage methods include using gravel on parts of parking lots or reserving areas for vegetation, which would hold water and release it gradually into the river, instead of running rainwater right into the watercourse. If there were 10,000 residences built at Kanata West, and every one had a rain barrel, that would create an additional 10,000 cubic metres of water-storage space.

The 85,000 cubic metres of additional storage space is about equivalent to the capacity of three oil tankers. Moss said that if spilled across all of the Kanata West area, 85,000 cubic metres would be close to an inch deep.

The Carp River and its tributaries are very small watercourses, but they are shallow and could spill into a very flat part of Kanata in the event of a “worst-case” storm, a once-in-a-century event.

A group of about 40 property owners, including the City of Ottawa, have been planning offices, stores and residential neighbourhoods on about 725 hectares around Scotiabank Place for the last eight years.

Moss said that a problem with the water modeling for the Kanata West development is that there were six different software packages used by different development proponents and no single model took into account the total picture for water storage and flow. Missing hydrographs have been accounted for and the models have been updated, according to Greenland.

Moss said that there is no increased risk of flooding at the Queensway as a result of the proposed restoration of the Carp River, which would be done as Kanata West is built.

Rob Mackay, manager of strategic projects for the city, noted that the error in the water-modeling work at Kanata West was “significant” and that it has already resulted in the addition of three stormwater ponds in the design for the area.

Bay Councillor Alex Cullen said the original water-engineering work was flawed and had to be fixed. He was pleased that the problem was caught and he said every developer will have to build some storage capacity.

Kanata North Councillor Marianne Wilkinson said she was relieved that the consultant’s review is done and that developments might soon be winning approvals. She said a church youth centre, a Rona store and three subdivisions have been held up by the development freeze in her ward.

Councillor Eli El-Chantiry, who represents West Carleton-March, said he was pleased with the result. He said the concern over the flooding risk verged on overkill and that the delay in approvals has stopped projects such as a medical centre in the village of Carp. El-Chantiry said the risk of further delays is that people will leave Ottawa for neighbouring communities, such as Almonte.

Ted Cooper, a city water resources engineer who was assigned to Kanata West and then pulled off the file, said there are problems with the Greenland review.

He said the report did not address climate change and the possibility of increased flooding in the future, the way the environment minister had ordered. He said that a big part of the proposed solution is increased stormwater storage and treatment, but the city has been cutting its maintenance of stormwater systems.

City officials at the briefing on the Greenland report said they hope developments in Kanata West might get started by the third or fourth quarter of this year. Planning manager John Moser said there is a backlog of planning applications.

The report must be approved not only by council, but also the Ministry of the Environment and its minister before anything goes ahead. The report goes for committee discussion and public input

May 12. It may be read online at

ottawa.ca/carpriver.
© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen
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  #199  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2009, 5:35 PM
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OMB ruling outrages village residents
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/ruling+outrages+Manotick+residents/1487853/story.html
Fear losing 'small-town feel' after decision OKs plan that will double the size of Manotick by 2020

BY MARIA COOK, THE OTTAWA CITIZENAPRIL 11, 2009


As he shared a hot-dog barbecue with neighbours on Friday, David Kirk explained why he and his family moved to Manotick nine years ago.

"We wanted a small-village feel, a quiet community," said Kirk, a 40-year-old marketing executive. "It wasn't a congested area."

That will change, he predicted, as the result of a controversial decision by the Ontario Municipal Board (OMB) that will double the population of Manotick by 2020.

"It's pretty disappointing to see the community and the city against it, and the OMB overruling us," he said.

On the estate lots, where Kirk lives, as well as in the historic village core, residents expressed sadness, anger and a sense of impending loss.

"Once the population is bigger, the chains will come in and it will be harder for local businesses on Main Street to stay in business," Kirk said.

"It's going to put a lot of stress on resources; we've got one hockey rink. Manotick is sized nicely for what we have."

On Thursday, the OMB approved Minto's Mahogany subdivision: 1,400 houses slated for a 480-acre area south of Manotick's village core.

"How do they have the power to overrule what a city and a community wants?" asked Dan Colfe, a 65-year-old newspaper contractor. "In 99 per cent of cases you've got two people working in a family. You're adding 2,800 cars."

City council rejected the proposed development last year, stating that the pace and size of growth did not comply with the city's official plan or the village's secondary plan, and that the project did not fit with the rural character of the village.

Minto Communities Inc. appealed council's decision to the board, made up of provincial appointees with the power to overrule municipal governments on planning issues.

"It doesn't surprise me," said 50-year-old hair stylist Donna Wright, who lives and works in a 150-year-old house on Main Street. "These are people who have a lot of weight and money and plans."

"It's unfortunate for our small town, because Barrhaven is touching us at one end and now Minto at the other. Manotick is just going to become a bedroom community of the city. People fear the loss of the small-town feeling."

Wright wishes traffic could be rerouted and the downtown turned into a pedestrian zone.

"I know from living on this street, it's extremely busy," she said.

"It's going to make it more difficult for people to get through the village. How are people going to be able to stop and park to bring their business to us?"

Sue Boucher's house backs onto the land to be developed.

"I'm very sad," she said. "I believe the OMB is totally for the developers. We had a strong case. The problem isn't Minto. The problem is the OMB, they don't know anything about villages."

Boucher will plant trees to screen the development. "We've lost our view. I do not want to see houses."

However, the battle has made the village stronger, she said. "I've met wonderful people in Manotick that I didn't know before. It's brought us closer."

She said they will scrutinize the development as it unfolds. "If I have a well problem, the city better be there to clean it up."

Dave Bracken, 63, is less concerned. His family has been in Manotick since 1942 and he lives on land that was once part of the family farm.

"Development is inevitable," he said. "You won't get a better builder or corporate citizen than Minto. It's not the houses that are an issue, it's the traffic. Until the infrastructure is in place, they shouldn't build one house."

Village historian Larry Ellis supports the development, in large part because it will create smaller houses for people who want to downsize as they age. "We've got none of that out here now.

"Minto is probably one of the better developers," he added.

"I've talked to them, met them, taken them on walking tours around town. They have a good feel for the village. They have a feeling for nature."

Meanwhile, Brian Tansley, president of the West Manotick community association, spent Friday morning fielding calls from unhappy residents.

"Disappointed would be an understatement," he said. "We lost big time. Every single point that we raised was ruled down.

"The primary disappointment is the lack of justification for the ruling. In a legal document there's references to prior rulings to provide rationale for decisions. There were none of those."

A rapid rate of growth will overwhelm recreation and public facilities, leading newcomers to shop and play in Barrhaven and elsewhere, he said.

"When you're raising family, you want to avail yourself of Girl Guides, soccer, hockey, churches, all the things that make family life.

"If they can't avail themselves of those features, are they going to make their own little community over there?

"You can look at other places where this has happened -- Kemptville, Smiths Falls -- where developments on the periphery have eaten out the central part of the village," said Tansley.

"It won't happen tomorrow, it'll happen in pieces. The rural village character will dissolve in part."

The secondary plan provided for 250 more houses to the current stock of 1,750 by 2020.

"Manotick is still here after 150 years," said Tansley. "We've managed to get this far by managing the growth."

Minto originally proposed upward of 2,000 houses, but reduced the number to 1,400 during talks with the city and community groups. It plans to build in five phases by 2020.

Construction could begin next year.

The OMB said that prior to each phase, Minto must prove there is enough transportation capacity to handle the population increase.

One element is the Strandherd-Armstrong bridge, which still requires financial commitments from the provincial and federal governments but is expected to be completed by 2013.

The board also ordered Minto to transfer ownership of a pond, creek corridors and other environmentally sensitive areas to the city for public use.

© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen
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  #200  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2009, 7:09 PM
eternallyme eternallyme is offline
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I think the OMB should be abolished. It should be left to municipal politicians, local interest groups and developers.
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