MARTA to face drastic cuts after bill stalls

[eddie21]

Are any of the people that are supporting MARTA on here native Atlantans?

I am a native and have lived here since my birth in 1982.

My parents have told me what happened to Lenox Mall when MARTA was brought through in 1984 - crime spiked and the mall became a haven for thugs and teenagers from the south side that would ride up to the mall to hang out and not buy anything. The mall almost went under - thank god a new mangement company stepped in to increase security and keep things under control. But there was no doubt - a criminal element moved in the same time as MARTA.

I remember what happened to Perimeter in 1996 when the Dunwoody Marta Station opened - the same exact thing. Spikes in petty crimes, hoodlums of teens running around (I was a teen then so I especially noticed), thuggish behavior. Perimeter was changed forever - for the worse - because of Marta. I was in Dunwoody at the Best Buy at 9:30 at night a couple of weeks ago when a panhandler asked me for money as he waited outside the Best Buy... in Dunwoody... across the street from MARTA - now how the heck you think he got there?

Why do you think a cop has to sit outside of the Perimeter Point Movie theater? Easy - the Sandy Springs Marta Station.

A friend of mine used to live in Alpharetta off Kimball bridge within walking distance of the Mansell Bus station - she noticed after it was built a signifigant increase in crime in her neighborhood.

Of course, there are success stories, like Lindbergh Center, but mostly these exmaples explain why many native Atlantans are so opposed to MARTA - because they saw the criminal element it brings and how it drastically altered Perimeter, Lenox, and to a lesser extent Alpharetta, right before thier eyes.

How could this be solved? Removal of mass transit - which I do not support. Atlanta needs MARTA.

What I support is a zone fare system for MARTA. That way if you want to ride from Collie Park to Dunwoody to chill at the mall, break into some cars, or beg for some money - your going to have to pay for it - making it less likely to happen.

No other system besides NYC operates like Marta with a single fare. Washington, D.C. uses a zone fare system, and there are few comlpaints from the wealthy suburb Alexandria, VA about criminal elements becuase the zone fare system prevents them from moving in.

Of course people argued that MARTA is safe and showed stats to prove it was in line with other systems in terms of safety, but refused to acknoledge a huge factor - all those systems use zone fare.

But why does Dr. Scott, CEO, refuse this option? Im not sure, but I have an idea - she has racist intentions. She knows most people who ride MARTA are black and she does not want them to be denied the right to ride wherever they want all over the city for one price. Justified? You decide - but all I know is that she refuses to discuss an option that would save MARTA.

So zone fares are used to keep the poor out of nice areas. Is this really why zone fares are used in other cities? I need to do some research. But after reading your comment, your own reasoning seems racist to me.

[eddie21]

And another thing. Why does it seem that our state legislature can never come together for state transportation? These issues are important not just to the growth of Atlanta but to the entire region.

[MichaelM.]

Wow, looks like my opinion is unpopular with a lot of people on here. Not many of you answered that you were natives though, which would help explain your sentiment (and this doesnt mean I have a chip on my shoulder - or that every native thinks this way - its just that every native I have met tends to think this way).

I guess ill try to respond to each post.

Wow, what a segue into racism! Crime is the price of living in a city. Who cares if some MARTA riding thugs make Buckhead Betty scared to shop. Little spikes in crime are incomparable to the benefits of transit.

No, not racism. If anything, I guess it would be classicism. But even so, not really. I dont care what race you are, but if you want to ride from the airport to Dunwoody, you should have to pay for it.

And crime is the price to living in a city. Notice how I never mentioned downtown or midtown? I agree with you - but Dunwoody isnt considered the city - its a suburb. Buckhead was also a suburb in 1984. People moved to these places cause they werent the city, they were suburbs, and they shouldnt have to deal with unecessary crime brought in by MARTA.

You say "little spikes in crime", but I would be interested to see how you felt if you were mugged walking out of Lenox Mall one night by a knife-wielding thug from MARTA.

Lenox mall changing is because it graduated from just a nice mall to a destination mall. It has stores that you cant find in any other mall in the city and in some other regional cities. It is an Aspirational mall. The same as 5th ave, it is a destination so of course ALL kinds of people will come. Marta slightly aides in that , but the Collipark teens do have cars and do drive to lenox so don't blame the entire problem on Marta. Atlanta is a major city, the 8th largest metro in the country unfortunately with that heavy crown comes problems. I can assure most of the supposed thuggy teens are just hanging with friends and could careless about stealing or causing trouble except the occasional sophomoric behavior. Its not always the most obvious who are up to no good.

Your a little late. Lenox Mall already changed. I got mugged there when I was in 8th grade, which was in 1996. The guy was caught - and guess how he ended up there? I shouldnt have to answer this. The change happened in 1984 when Lenox Station opened. Youll have to go back to then to make any comparisons. I am sure it was going to change anyway, as nothing stays the same, but apparently other natives tell me it was drastic and extremely negative that summer after the station opened.

The technology costs money to implement, and is very politically unpopular in places like Atlanta. Is it because of racism? Probably not. But it is certainly a legitimate concern that low-income residents would be negatively impacted. That's not a black or white issue - it's an issue of fairness. You cannot simply raise the cost of transit to prevent "criminal elements" in wealthy suburbs. And seriously, you saw a panhandler in Dunwoody? The horror! Pretty soon that MARTA riff-raff will be breaking into houses and raping women.

Plenty of people here are (like myself) native Atlantans. Perhaps a trip out of the northern suburbs might change your perspective a little bit.

I thought Philly used a zone fare system...

The Breeze Card technology is what zone fare systems use - it is already in place.

Back up your statements about it being politcally unpopular in Atlanta, because I disagree. Dr. Scott refuses to even discuss it.

And yes, as someone who grew up in Dunwoody seeing a panhandler upsets me, but its more evidence of the riff raff marta brings. Dont force Dunwoody residents to live like inner city ones. I wouldnt care if it was Downtown or even Midtown, but not Dunwoody. Seems like this comment was fueled more by some sort of resentment toward the northern suburbs - and its freaky you joke about women being raped.

And as for data, I am working on gathering some tomorrow.

You know this is Atlanta right? Big city. To say a panhandler was hanging out on the street of a big city is like saying a college kid is hanging out outside of some dorms. Hell, i've seen panhandlers where my parents live in Warner Robins, and there's not one lick of mass transit, not even buses. How did he get THERE?

If you had lived in dunwoody before Marta came in you would understand. Its impossible to relate the drastic overnight change to someone who wasnt there.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here... You say that people showed evidence that MARTA was in line with other systems in terms of safety without the zone fare, but the others had zone fare and were in line with MARTA. So you're saying that MARTA is just as safe without zone fare... Or am i reading wrong? I've done that before, but this just doesn't make sense to me.

MARTA is often said to not affect crime in surrounding areas more than any other system, but usually the systems its compared to use zone fare systems (i.e. Washington and San Francisco)

Or because it's where a lot of people are hanging out and the cop is doing his job. Again, theres always a cop hanging out outside of the movie theatre in Warner Robins...

So is it just a coincidence that the cop did not start having to go there until the Sandy Springs Station was built?

[MichaelM.]

Originally Posted by skapunkskatedude

I'm not sure how you get that Dr. Scott is racist because she allows everyone to go anywhere for the same price. That just means that poor people have exactly the same opportunity to get around the city as rich people. Everyone can afford it. In fact, to say that we should raise the price so poor people can't move around would (in your definition of racism) be racist.

Without the expansions of MARTA, i'm sure perimeter and Buckhead would never have exploded the way they did. This city, like any relies on mass transit, and no, i don't suppose it'll stop crime, but in order for the city to thrive, people have to move around. Even if the crime is a product of mass transit, the mass transit is a product of being a mass population centre, and using the transitive property, we can deduce that the crime is a product of a mass population centre. The solution; stop being a mass population centre. Thats not going to happen btw.

BTW, (as an example) Gwinnett is a huge illegal drug centre for the Mexican cartels. I think that trumps anything that MARTA can bring to Gwinnett.

On the racism, I have no clue if she is or not. I just cant figure out why the prospect of a zone fare system has not been raised, and the only thing I can think of is that she is afraid it may prevent someone from the south side riding up to Dunwoody, which it seems like she must enable at all costs.

Atlanta relies on the automobile. Thats how its built. It is just not an efficient use of time to use MARTA in Atlanta in most circumstances. Its mainly used by people as a last resort.

----------------------

Like it or not, a place changes for the worse when MARTA comes through. Ill try to find data to prove it, but my own eyes have seen it and you just dont have an idea or ability to comment on that unless you can prove me wrong with data or were also there yourself. Most natives would probably agree with that if they lived in Buckhead before 1984 or Dunwoody before 1996.

I am just saying that maybe residents of Dunwoody and to a lesser extent Buckhead wouldnt have to deal with "regular city life" like bums and crime if a zone fare was implemented. MARTA could make more money, there would be less opposition to expansion, and the residents wouldnt have to deal with the additional crime. Why does that get people so riled up? A thief would be less like to pay $10 to ride up to Dunwoody, yet workers, who the system is made for, would still have an incentive to do so.

Also, why else would Gwinnett reject MARTA? Why did Cobb? Why did Brookwood Hills fight to the death to stop a MARTA station? Do you think its cause of some undounded fear that they imagined -

Or maybe because they saw how MARTA changed Dunwoody, Alpharetta, and Buckhead overnight, and for the worse, and feared that it would happen to thier own communities?

[Sketching]

Originally Posted by MichaelM.

On the racism, I have no clue if she is or not. I just cant figure out why the prospect of a zone fare system has not been raised, and the only thing I can think of is that she is afraid it may prevent someone from the south side riding up to Dunwoody, which it seems like she must enable at all costs.

Atlanta relies on the automobile. Thats how its built. It is just not an efficient use of time to use MARTA in Atlanta in most circumstances. Its mainly used by people as a last resort.

----------------------

Like it or not, a place changes for the worse when MARTA comes through. Ill try to find data to prove it, but my own eyes have seen it and you just dont have an idea or ability to comment on that unless you can prove me wrong with data or were also there yourself. Most natives would probably agree with that if they lived in Buckhead before 1984 or Dunwoody before 1996.

I am just saying that maybe residents of Dunwoody and to a lesser extent Buckhead wouldnt have to deal with "regular city life" like bums and crime if a zone fare was implemented. MARTA could make more money, there would be less opposition to expansion, and the residents wouldnt have to deal with the additional crime. Why does that get people so riled up? A thief would be less like to pay $10 to ride up to Dunwoody, yet workers, who the system is made for, would still have an incentive to do so.

Also, why else would Gwinnett reject MARTA? Why did Cobb? Why did Brookwood Hills fight to the death to stop a MARTA station? Do you think its cause of some undounded fear that they imagined -

Or maybe because they saw how MARTA changed Dunwoody, Alpharetta, and Buckhead overnight, and for the worse, and feared that it would happen to thier own communities?

I think I have you beat. I have lived here since 1973. Born and raised here and your thoughts are an embarrassment to our city. I am a native and no Marta did not change Dunwoody, Alpharetta or Buchkead overnight. Your opinions are the most silly and racist comments I think I have seen in my years on this forum. You should be ashamed of yourself. Please go back to lurking or go back to living in your own little fantasy world okay.
What really changed the areas you mentioned is GA 400. All of those areas saw explosive growth once GA 400 was completed between 285 and I-85. And no, the changes were not for the worse unless you are specifically talking about traffic congestion and sprawl.

[jeffschade3]

Originally Posted by eddie21

And another thing. Why does it seem that our state legislature can never come together for state transportation? These issues are important not just to the growth of Atlanta but to the entire region.

Because Sonny & Co. would rather spend money promoting a "fishing museum" and the like for all his south-Georgia cronies. He never has (and probably never will) care about the actual city.

[gttx]

Originally Posted by MichaelM.

Also, why else would Gwinnett reject MARTA? Why did Cobb? Why did Brookwood Hills fight to the death to stop a MARTA station? Do you think its cause of some undounded fear that they imagined -

Or maybe because they saw how MARTA changed Dunwoody, Alpharetta, and Buckhead overnight, and for the worse, and feared that it would happen to thier own communities?

Maybe because they have the same silly, unfounded fear of black people and crime that you do?

Talk about biting the hand that feeds you. Without Atlanta, these suburbs would be nothing, and yet they still can't imagine really being a part of the city.

From the research I have done, a few things are apparent to me:

(1) Transit usage increases crime inasmuch as it creates an environment where lots of people are grouped together in a small area (ie it is one of the largest truly "public" spaces we encounter)

(2) Crime rates at stations are highly correlated with crime rates in the surrounding neighborhoods. Why? Because the stations create opportunity for crime for those already living there.

(3) To expound upon the previous assertion, most criminals stay in areas that are familiar to them. That is, they will stay around the train station or bus stop in their community, rather than riding somewhere else to commit a crime.

(4) Very few violent crimes are committed in and around transit systems. The majority of incidents are petty crimes and unreported activities like vandalism and public drunkenness. This makes some logical sense, since using transit as a "getaway" vehicle is about as inefficient as you can get.

(5) Good policing at transit stations deters criminals. In New York, for example, 3.5% of crimes are reported on the subway system, but 12% of the city's police force guards it. This is both a physical and mental deterrent.

Additionally, I do not discount the phenomena you are citing - I think you simply have the causation wrong. Lenox, like any regional mall, saw increased crime with its increased presence in the city. More popularity brings more people, which, unfortunately, normally brings more crime.

Many of the northern suburbs - Gwinnett, Alpharetta, etc - are also starting to see high crime rates, not because of transit connections but, I would argue, because of income. The city used to be attractive for low-income residents, but now it has become prohibitively expensive. Where do they go? To the suburbs, which have become increasingly attractive as new homes have been built and the housing stock changed. We will continue to see this shift in every suburb, not just those connected to MARTA.

Finally, I have to question the logic of any criminal who takes the train from the city to Dunwoody to rob someone. I cannot imagine that actually happening. There are 10 other stations that are both easier to get to and provide access to more people - and I would imagine that petty criminals are more attracted to population density than anything else. The connection between MARTA and crime in places like Buckhead and Dunwoody is weak at best, and is mostly just a myth ingrained in wealthy suburbanites who have never experienced a city.

[daharris80]

Originally Posted by MichaelM.

Are any of the people that are supporting MARTA on here native Atlantans?

Good question, but it begs another. Are you a native American? Because I'll have you know that before the Europeans got to Atlanta (it wasn't called that but that's another issue), it was a completely unsoiled. There were no beggars, ANYWHERE, and the THUGS stayed in Savanna.

So if you don't mind you can take your Best Buys and Cinemas, and realize that things change overtime and that you have no God given right to enjoy Dunwoody, or Alpharetta, or anywhere else without other people wanting to enjoy the same thing. Like anything else progress brings growing pains. However, instead of looking for racist intentions in the present we should all realize that there were no glory days when everything was perfect. In fact, I think before the days of MARTA, Buckhead, Dunwoody, and Sandy Springs, had their own racists to deal with.

[ATLmangum]

Moderator, where are you?

This is a construction thread, not a transportation thread.

[gttx]

Originally Posted by ATLmangum

Moderator, where are you?

This is a construction thread, not a transportation thread.

Yes, but construction and transportation are inseparably related. Transportation breeds new construction....construction breeds new transportation. Understanding the relationship between mass transit and property values (which I suppose are wrapped into this discussion about crime) is important, especially to planners and developers.

The racist discussion is cliche at this point. Find something better to complain about....the post about MARTA should give you about 15 things.

[cybele]

Originally Posted by daharris80

In fact, I think before the days of MARTA, Buckhead, Dunwoody, and Sandy Springs, had their own racists to deal with.

As did Downtown, Grant Park, Sylvan Hills, East Atlanta, Midtown, Capitol View, Cascade Heights, Kirkwood, Peyton Forest, and just about every other part of Atlanta. Many white people bolted from the city because of racial issues, and those problems continue to shape development around here.

[Snakebit]

Originally Posted by MichaelM.

Are any of the people that are supporting MARTA on here native Atlantans?

I am a native and have lived here since my birth in 1982.

My parents have told me what happened to Lenox Mall when MARTA was brought through in 1984 - crime spiked and the mall became a haven for thugs and teenagers from the south side that would ride up to the mall to hang out and not buy anything. The mall almost went under - thank god a new mangement company stepped in to increase security and keep things under control. But there was no doubt - a criminal element moved in the same time as MARTA.

I remember what happened to Perimeter in 1996 when the Dunwoody Marta Station opened - the same exact thing. Spikes in petty crimes, hoodlums of teens running around (I was a teen then so I especially noticed), thuggish behavior. Perimeter was changed forever - for the worse - because of Marta. I was in Dunwoody at the Best Buy at 9:30 at night a couple of weeks ago when a panhandler asked me for money as he waited outside the Best Buy... in Dunwoody... across the street from MARTA - now how the heck you think he got there?

Why do you think a cop has to sit outside of the Perimeter Point Movie theater? Easy - the Sandy Springs Marta Station.

A friend of mine used to live in Alpharetta off Kimball bridge within walking distance of the Mansell Bus station - she noticed after it was built a signifigant increase in crime in her neighborhood.

Of course, there are success stories, like Lindbergh Center, but mostly these exmaples explain why many native Atlantans are so opposed to MARTA - because they saw the criminal element it brings and how it drastically altered Perimeter, Lenox, and to a lesser extent Alpharetta, right before thier eyes.

How could this be solved? Removal of mass transit - which I do not support. Atlanta needs MARTA.

What I support is a zone fare system for MARTA. That way if you want to ride from Collie Park to Dunwoody to chill at the mall, break into some cars, or beg for some money - your going to have to pay for it - making it less likely to happen.

No other system besides NYC operates like Marta with a single fare. Washington, D.C. uses a zone fare system, and there are few comlpaints from the wealthy suburb Alexandria, VA about criminal elements becuase the zone fare system prevents them from moving in.

Of course people argued that MARTA is safe and showed stats to prove it was in line with other systems in terms of safety, but refused to acknoledge a huge factor - all those systems use zone fare.

But why does Dr. Scott, CEO, refuse this option? Im not sure, but I have an idea - she has racist intentions. She knows most people who ride MARTA are black and she does not want them to be denied the right to ride wherever they want all over the city for one price. Justified? You decide - but all I know is that she refuses to discuss an option that would save MARTA.

I am a native Atlantan, born and raised. In fact, I have lived in both Alpharetta and Gwinnett. My father works in Lawrencville at the hospital. I have got to say this, you have a very short-sighted view of public transportation. I have been to NYC, Paris, DC, and numerous other cities with transportation systems and they have an undeniably positive impact (Just like in Atlanta).

I am going to break down the affect of Marta on each of the "blighted" areas you brought up.

Sandy Springs/ Decatur:

I have a ton of friends in this area and have been coming here for years. Before Marta came to the area, Perimeter was a podunk mall with nothing really going on. Since Marta, all sorts of development has begun. I would venture to say that hundreds if not thousands of jobs have come to the area. For every bum that takes the train to Dunwoody, there are numerous GT student or other "acceptable" city resident who take the train to a movie theater, home from the airport, or out to dinner with their friends. Is it such a coincidence that Dunwoody and the Perimeter mall area has blown up since it became connected to Marta?

Buckhead/ Lenox:

Lenox is not a gateway for criminals. I have seen more criminal behavior at Northpoint. When you went to Buckhead, where did the affects of Marta show themselves to you? Was it in the lobbies of the four and five star hotels that have been built over the last 15 years? What about in the world renowned stores that have miraculously popped up since the area allowed in the undesirable residents? Clearly, you need to get off the golf course. Lenox, as GTTX said, has made a name for itself. People travel there from all over the region. Some good, some bad. I think most of the criminals that you speak of come to Buckhead by car. Like it or not, criminals have access to transportation, especially those intending to inflict serious crimes. As GTTX said, public transportation usually helps property values.

Alpharetta/ Gwinnett/ Brookhaven:

Alpharetta is a decent place. But I can tell you, many small business owners would love increased transportation options. And the crime here is ramping up because of drug cartels moving in. Drug Cartels with hundreds of millions of dollars at their disposal that could care less about public transit. As for Brookhaven, have you been there recently? It is growing by leaps and bounds even now.

Conclusion:

I don't think you are a racist, but its this kind of thinking that is the problem and not the solution. Atlanta is turning into a vibrant and well-liked city. The best way for it to continue on this path is via public transportation. Almost all great cities have public transportation. It increases economic activity and connectivity within the city. New York is powered by the workers that take public transit into the city from the suburbs. It is the same way all over the world and to a large extent here already. I know people don't like change, but they need to get used to it. Its the same idea behind free trade, movement helps commerce. And while you say that people are against public transportation, most polls show that the number in support is growing greatly as time goes by. To see why public transportation is good for the city, just try to drive downtown to one of the corporate offices one morning.

[ATLaffinity]

Originally Posted by MichaelM.

No, not racism. If anything, I guess it would be classicism.

Millennium Gate lover?

[citywalker]

I just think it is sad that we have gotten to this point where the classes have segregated themselves so far away from reality and anything they don't approve of or like that they honestly believe their gated community somehow makes them better than everyone else. That anyhing negative such as bums, rain, clouds, crime, low-income people, panhandlers or dirt on their shoes should be allowed to come anywhere near them to wreck their perfect ideal world is lunacy. We have a serious mental block in this country because of apathy, inactiveness and unwillingness to do or change anything for ourselves. We want the world to be perfect and want to blame everyone but ourselves if it's not. Get up, get out and start to change things...if you don't like the crime why dont you start a neighborhood watch, volunteer to read to lower income students, move into the city and start fixing it instead of whining about it and gating yourself off from reality. When did it become okay to just run away and complain about everything you don't like instead of banding together to change it? Even just by living in the city, riding transit, recycling, being courteous etc little by little what a difference we can start to make if everyone looks to themself first and tries.....

[joecool]

Originally Posted by citywalker

I just think it is sad that we have gotten to this point where the classes have segregated themselves so far away from reality and anything they don't approve of or like that they honestly believe their gated community somehow makes them better than everyone else. That anyhing negative such as bums, rain, clouds, crime, low-income people, panhandlers or dirt on their shoes should be allowed to come anywhere near them to wreck their perfect ideal world is lunacy. We have a serious mental block in this country because of apathy, inactiveness and unwillingness to do or change anything for ourselves. We want the world to be perfect and want to blame everyone but ourselves if it's not. Get up, get out and start to change things...if you don't like the crime why dont you start a neighborhood watch, volunteer to read to lower income students, move into the city and start fixing it instead of whining about it and gating yourself off from reality. When did it become okay to just run away and complain about everything you don't like instead of banding together to change it? Even just by living in the city, riding transit, recycling, being courteous etc little by little what a difference we can start to make if everyone looks to themself first and tries.....

...AMEN!

[MichaelM.]

Its very amusing how my opinion got so twisted.

*I explicitly mentioned I supported mass transit.

*Pulling the race card was predictable - but it actually showed most of the responders had racial associations between blacks and bums, thugs, and criminals, which I never equated either directly or indirectly.

*I offer a different opinion of how MARTA could improve its image and reduce crime, and I am attacked. Even if you disagree, some of you showed your ignorance and immaturity by attacking me personally instead of the argument itself.

*What some of you dont like is that I would have the audacity to say that people in the suburbs should not have to be forced to put up with the criminals, bums and thugs from the city just so you can have your precious mass transit. Some of you want to force mass transit on people at all costs - which is frightening.

*MARTA has nothing to do with Perimeter's growth. It is/was I-285. The area was already a major edge city by 1990 - do some research.

*The point about retail or income causing the change does not explain the drastic change in 1996 (Dunwoody) and 1984 (Lenox) that happened overnight.

*Please, if you were not frequenting Perimeter Mall during the summer of 1996, then either offer data to contradict my eye witness, firsthand experiences, or do not respond at all.

*Perimeter was not poedunk in the early 90's - it had been a major edge city at least a decade before MARTA came through.

*A huge percentage of Perimeter was developed before MARTA came in 1996. Besides Sembler's Perimeter Place, most of the stuff was already there.

*Lastly, please prove me wrong - provide me with some statistics that prove crime did not go up in a short amount of time in the area surrounding the Sandy Springs (2001), Dunwoody (1996), Lenox (1984) train stations or the Alpharetta (1998) bus station.

[sevensixtwo]

Originally Posted by MichaelM.

No, not racism. If anything, I guess it would be classicism. But even so, not really.

Originally Posted by MichaelM.

But why does Dr. Scott, CEO, refuse this option? Im not sure, but I have an idea - she has racist intentions.

So it seems like you actually did call it racism rather than classism. Also, saying 'every native Atlantan tends to think' something is like saying something is fairly unique or mostly unanimous. And what do you mean, but not actually mean by saying 'but even so, not really'? If you cant debate stick to comments like, "The big building is pretty," or ,"The new facade is shiny."

I'm not sure that I see the connection between being a native and having a more informed opinion. If anything, in spite of their deeper knowledge base, it seems that natives may succumb to a skewed perspective based on historical Atlanta whereas transplants like myself tend to hold opinions based solely on Atlanta's current condition.

[atl2phx]

Originally Posted by MichaelM.

Its very amusing how my opinion got so twisted.

*I explicitly mentioned I supported mass transit.

*Pulling the race card was predictable - but it actually showed most of the responders had racial associations between blacks and bums, thugs, and criminals, which I never equated either directly or indirectly.

*I offer a different opinion of how MARTA could improve its image and reduce crime, and I am attacked. Even if you disagree, some of you showed your ignorance and immaturity by attacking me personally instead of the argument itself.

*What some of you dont like is that I would have the audacity to say that people in the suburbs should not have to be forced to put up with the criminals, bums and thugs from the city just so you can have your precious mass transit. Some of you want to force mass transit on people at all costs - which is frightening.

*MARTA has nothing to do with Perimeter's growth. It is/was I-285. The area was already a major edge city by 1990 - do some research.

*The point about retail or income causing the change does not explain the drastic change in 1996 (Dunwoody) and 1984 (Lenox) that happened overnight.

*Please, if you were not frequenting Perimeter Mall during the summer of 1996, then you cannot offer any alternative to my firsthand experiences.

*Perimeter was not poedunk in the early 90's - it had been a major edge city at least a decade before MARTA came through.

*A huge percentage of Perimeter was developed before MARTA came in 1996. Besides Sembler's Perimeter Place, most of the stuff was already there.

*Lastly, please prove me wrong - provide me with some statistics that prove crime did not go up in the area surrounding the Sandy Springs, Dunwoody, Lenox train stations or the Alpharetta bus station.

you haven't produced any statistics supporting your claim that crime has risen around those three stations, and even if you did or could, i could show you higher increases in the rate of all categories of crime in suburban areas not served by marta, for instance gwinnett's i-85 corridor stretching from 285 up to norcross and gwinnett place hasn't seen a marta bus or train EVER, and the accelleration of crime in that area has likely outpaced the areas you speak of over the same period of time.

you get your discourse from your family and parents, thats fine, just don't expect everyone else to buy it. step into the world and realize that mom and dad don't hold the truths you think they do.

your opinion is your opinion, and just that. i am a native atlantan (actually born in the city), and i find your comments extremely biased, out of touch and niave.

[MichaelM.]

Originally Posted by atl2phx

you haven't produced any statistics supporting your claim that crime has risen around those three stations, and even if you did or could, i could show you higher increases in the rate of all categories of crime in suburban areas not served by marta, for instance gwinnett's i-85 corridor stretching from 285 up to norcross and gwinnett place hasn't seen a marta bus or train EVER, and the accelleration of crime in that area has likely outpaced the areas you speak of over the same period of time.

you get your discourse from your family and parents, thats fine, just don't expect everyone else to buy it. step into the world and realize that mom and dad don't hold the truths you think they do.

Providing stats from areas not served by MARTA would not make sense, because other factors could have caused that crime. Although irrelevant, you do have a good point, but who is to say that those areas would not have declined even further if MARTA was brought in.

Like I said, I witnessed the uptick in crime at Perimeter first hand. I dont need the stats - I was there and saw it myself.

You do not know me. This is an online forum, and you have no clue where I "get my discourse from."

[atl2phx]

Originally Posted by MichaelM.

Providing stats from areas not served by MARTA would not make sense, because other factors could have caused that crime. Although irrelevant, you do have a good point, but who is to say that those areas would not have declined even further if MARTA was brought in.

it makes absolute sense to compare the two, one is served by marta, the other isn't, both had comparable increases in crime. the comparison is valid, particularly because your claim is based on the false and racially biased assumption that marta is the cause.

to your point, if there are lurking variables attributable to the increase of crime in gwinnett, couldn't similar causes drive crime in sandy springs, perimeter and lenox as well? perhaps a concentration of wealth, people and access to 285 makes an area a greater target for crime, particularly when it's in one of the most affluent/popular areas in the 8th largest metro in the country.

Originally Posted by MichaelM.

My parents have told me what happened to Lenox Mall when MARTA was brought through in 1984 - crime spiked and the mall became a haven for thugs and teenagers from the south side that would ride up to the mall to hang out and not buy anything. The mall almost went under - thank god a new mangement company stepped in to increase security and keep things under control. But there was no doubt - a criminal element moved in the same time as MARTA.

you admit that your parents told you what happened to lenox after marta, that's discourse, and it's racially biased. by the way, as a white teenager who grew up in sandy springs, the little bit of time i spent in lenox, much of it was hanging out and not buying anything, it's what kids do, catch a movie and hang out.

lenox NEVER almost went under, it's just not true, in fact, lenox has ALWAYS had the highest $/sqft revenues of any retail mall in georgia and that has never changed, even after the arrival of marta.