Salt Lake:Official development news thread

[shakman]

Originally Posted by Boiseguy

I think a lot of salt lake's problem with density is due to the large city blocks which someone mentioned before. Developements need street access, and when looking at it all from above.. everything looks miles apart than it does in many other cities.. The large blocks also are not pedestrian friendly.. which makes for one or two (main street being one) where all the action is. One city block in salt lake city is equal to almost 4 city blocks in Portland or boise..
Salt Lake probably has one of the largest downtown's in the country in terms of land area....

I see CCC as a development that will utilize the large blocks quite well in terms pedestrian traffic. Meaning that pedestrian access will extend into the middle of the block, therefore not creating any mid block dead zones and breaking down of the massive blocks that currently exist. I think if future developments have the same concept, the large blocks that exist will become benificial to the vibrancy of Downtown. Maybe even for the entire City. I can think of other means and uses for the large blocks being a benifit.

Any SLC people concur? Agree or dissagree?

[WASDEN]

Originally Posted by shakman

I see CCC as a development that will utilize the large blocks quite well in terms pedestrian traffic. Meaning that pedestrian access will extend into the middle of the block, therefore not creating any mid block dead zones and breaking down of the massive blocks that currently exist. I think if future developments have the same concept, the large blocks that exist will become benificial to the vibrancy of Downtown. Maybe even for the entire City. I can think of other means and uses for the large blocks being a benifit.

Any SLC people concur? Agree or dissagree?

I've said before that SLC has the potential to be one of the more pedestrian friendly cities out there. That is if the blocks are broken up, and midblock streets are only accessible to pedestrians as in the CCC, or are less automotive intensive like Rio Grande Street through the Gateway. However, I don't think disruptive, massive, whole block redevelopments like the CCC are the way to achieve this. I prefer proper zoning and a more organic, phased approach.

[shakman]

Originally Posted by WASDEN

I've said before that SLC has the potential to be one of the more pedestrian friendly cities out there. That is if the blocks are broken up, and midblock streets are only accessible to pedestrians as in the CCC, or are less automotive intensive like Rio Grande Street through the Gateway. However, I don't think disruptive, massive, whole block redevelopments like the CCC are the way to achieve this. I prefer proper zoning and a more organic, phased approach.

Phased approach is excellent. It provides the opportunity to learn from any "uh-oh's". I was thinking more on the lines of a mix of some of the mid-block throughways as some being vehicular right-of-ways (especially for emergengy response) and some as pedestrian right-of-ways. Is that what you are thinking?

[Ronald-Dregan]

I think the huge blocks hurt us in the short run, but in the long road, say 50 years from now all the blocks will be split up with narrow streets. Plus you gotta think automobiles will be much more scarce making traffic irrevelant. I know SLC has a very bright future as it will be a shiny gem in America. I kinda like the niehboorhoods from 400s-1700s East of state street to the foothills. large blocks but allota alley way cut streets its very nice compared to alot of places ive been in the west.

[TANGELD_SLC]

I think our large blocks will only turn out to be a blessing in the long run.
Inner block streets could be cobble-stoned and tree-lined, and only accessible for pedestrians, bikes and segways. They would be the inner life of the downtown area.

[urbanboy]

A "blessing?"

I think we can use the wide streets and large blocks to our advantage though

[delts145]

Originally Posted by shakman

I see CCC as a development that will utilize the large blocks quite well in terms pedestrian traffic. Meaning that pedestrian access will extend into the middle of the block, therefore not creating any mid block dead zones and breaking down of the massive blocks that currently exist. I think if future developments have the same concept, the large blocks that exist will become benificial to the vibrancy of Downtown. Maybe even for the entire City. I can think of other means and uses for the large blocks being a benifit.

Any SLC people concur? Agree or dissagree?

Agree Shakman, I have long been a proponent of developing the potential of the cores of the large blocks in the CBD. We're now seeing the beginning of what will be a trend downtown. The continued development of the inner blocks will propel Salt Lake's downtown into being one of the most attractive downtowns in the country.

[shakman]

Originally Posted by delts145

Agree Shakman, I have long been a proponent of developing the potential of the cores of the large blocks in the CBD. We're now seeing the beginning of what will be a trend downtown. The continued development of the inner blocks will propel Salt Lake's downtown into being one of the most attractive downtowns in the country.

I want elaborate more on what you posted... It could very well be one of the most pedestrian friendly downtown in the US.

Also... Whenever SLC decides on an underground heavy rail system, the middle of the blocks can be an ideal location for some of the future transit stations, thus bring life to the center of the block and at the same minimizing any disruptions to the current street system.

Of course an opposing concern would be to not forget about the perimeter of the large blocks. Downtowns should not compete with themselves; meaning creating vibrancy by sacrificing other areas of Downtown. Competition is good but a loss of a vibrant continuity should be avoided.

Once again, I believe Downtown SLC is poised to become one of the most pedestrian friendly downtowns in the US.

[cololi]

Over time, the large blocks can be broken up. One thing to consider though is that there are few blocks that have the same characteristics as the CCC blocks, primarily most blocks have dozens of property owners. Trying to get public access easements is going to be a long, difficult and likely expensive proposition. The City should develop some sort of automatic incentive for providing it (automatic increase in height, decreased parking, etc), even if the City ends up paying to construct and maintain the area.

I don't see underground rail ever really being considered in any of our life times. SLC would have to hit a very large, critical mass to maintain street life with an undergound. We struggle with street life with an at grade system now, even along the rail lines. Look at the 100 and 300 South blocks of Main, where you are between stops. It is a struggle to maintain street life outside of normal business hours and as a result there are a high number of vacancies. Even a block away from a stop in downtown SLC is too far, under existing conditions, to create a 24/7 district.

[delts145]

I very much agree Cololi regarding the city needing to develop an incentive program. I suppose there will always be certain difficulties, particularly with the blocks involving many owners. I almost wonder if it will be those blocks less developed to the south which will eventually be able to better capitalize on inner block development. Right now, we do have some potentially very attractive mid blocks, such as Pierpont, which are begging for some creative projects.

Another thing that I've wanted to comment on for a while and feel that many forumers would agree with me. No one hates powers lines more than me, especially the large utility variety, like on 6th, or the old leaning poles scattered here and there. I was a little concerned at first about putting the power lines for TRAX down the middle of streets like Main. I have suprised myself as to how much I love the look of those TRAX lines. Sure, the poles are antic,attractive and decorative, but even the lines themselves seem to add a vibrant feel to the street. I now much prefer the look of a TRAX system down the middle of the wide street as pictured below, rather than an average non-descript street. I can't wait for the remergence of Trolleys throughout Salt Lake proper. Also, I can't repeat enough how much I like the street presence of 222. I agree with others that it doesn't do allot for the skyline, but I'm very impressed and delighted with it's contribution to the eclectic beauty of Main at street level.


by T-Mac

[Future Mayor]

Since we are on the subject of mid block access I think that the emergence of Regent Street between 100 and 200 S will be a critical cog in connecting pedestrians to areas of the city. Regent will connect two huge traffic generators, with CCC and Gallivan, as well as the new Theater. Main Street will gradually have increased foot traffic as restaurants, retail and housing continue to front the street.

With a connector from Main to Regent between 100 and 200 S (possible with the theater proposal) that will provide a mid block access between Regent and Main on three consecutive blocks. These access points will not only provide pedestrian traffic to Regent street but will do the same back to Main street.

So to sum it up a pedestrian will have the opportunity to travel mid-block from S. Temple to 300 S; with access to Main St through CCC, Theater, and Gallivan and access to State from CCC, Orpheum Avenue, and south of Gallivan.

Here's a crude map, but it shows decent access and pedestrian cross traffic potential.

[Boiseguy]

Those are fabulous ideas.. but I don't think it takes breaking the big blocks up to allow for street access, and It does need to happen in phases. We already know that main street is the center for where everything is. The city can start with all the blocks on each side of main street. Upon Design review of developements.. they can ensure that pedestrian right of way are incorporated. Here in Boise there is a super block where the grove plaza is located. Such design could be implemented on a handfull of city blocks near CCC and Main Street. Creates new Mid block Squares for gathering and off street pedestrian access... With that said, attention must be given to ensure that each block isn't turned in on itself too much either....
There's really so many things that could be done in downtown salt lake... Its kind of fun to analyze it all...
The coblestone idea would be awesome

[Future Mayor]

Discussion brought over from 222

Originally Posted by Ronald-Dregan

I dont like the idea of having highrises on 600 S in the near future. I think we need to work on geting more dense and not stretching further down. If you guys notice our downtown is elongated North to South, I believe we need to get a bit wider from East to West. A great amount of infill is needed still around 100 S - 300 S.

I like the idea of our skyline expanding along 200 S and 400 S. 200 S is a great connector to the west side of dt and of course 400 S connects to the east. There are a couple of spots within a block of main to plug that 100 S to 200 S, next to the little white Zions, the corner west of Capital and Carl's Jr.

I would like to see the skyline widen East to West and somewhat south, but I would like to see it move in those directions slowly and not through leap frogging other parking lots. I don't want any additional historic or even older building to come down, but I also don't want to see a 25 - 40 story tower pop up on 600 S and 300 W anytime soon.

Someone else mentioned it but I too could imagine 600 S being a corridor of residential highrises or mid rises combined with the Grand Boulevard.

[Urban_logic]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

We have to remember that while the skylines may seem more impressive than the SLC skyline, that isn't what truly makes a city a great city. While I haven't read the article I am assuming that when they said Denver was at the bottom it simply meant the quality of the downtown while in downtown. That includes the vibrancy, the residential, the available arts and cultural activities, and more. So while Phoenix and Denver may have more impressive skylines it doesn't always equate to a more vibrant downtown.

I have had several associates from Denver over the years and while I know a lot has changed, they told me 10 years ago that while Denver has a bigger downtown and a larger skyline that it was simply a business oriented city and that SLC had a much better arts and culture and more welcoming downtown. This is the same thing I have heard about Phoenix in comparison to SLC.

True that! When I went to Tampa, the downtown had much more (and taller) towers than SLC, but it was around 8 pm and the street life was dead! Don't let me short-change Tampa, though, they do have lively districts in town, but the CBD isn't very happening unless its a workday. Of course, some cities choose to do this on purpose. My hometown Walnut Creek, CA kinda did this sort of thing. The part of down town that has most of the office towers is soley a business district that is dead outside of work times. To the south, however, the street life is bustling regardless of the day or time of day. I remember walking down town to meet some friends at a resteraunt and was shocked how paked the streets were on a Tuesday night around 9ish - no special occasion, just a typical weekday night. I personaly like all the districts mixed together or really close to each other in the reletively the same place. Walnut Creek was nice, but I kinda wish the office towers stood over the shopping district of town.

Originally Posted by Justnslcsugarhood.

Salt Lake City has cool apartments just north Of the CBD that are usually cut out of the skyline photos,
also most of our skyline photos seem to be from the North West as to include the temple which cuts out the majority of our buildings. If you look at SLC from the east, especially south east coming down on University Bl. our downtown looks amazing.

You mean like this?

Originally Posted by shakman

I see CCC as a development that will utilize the large blocks quite well in terms pedestrian traffic. Meaning that pedestrian access will extend into the middle of the block, therefore not creating any mid block dead zones and breaking down of the massive blocks that currently exist. I think if future developments have the same concept, the large blocks that exist will become benificial to the vibrancy of Downtown. Maybe even for the entire City. I can think of other means and uses for the large blocks being a benifit.

Any SLC people concur? Agree or dissagree?

I totally agree!! I love big blocks and see the potential of subdividing them! Some people on here shoot me down for advocating suburbs of SLC to build their own mini-down towns because the blocks are "too large".

Originally Posted by urbanboy

I think we can use the wide streets and large blocks to our advantage though

But I thought big blocks were bad...Remember how the Jordans can't ever create a mini down town because of the "big blocks"?

I know a lot of you guys love to hate on your suburbs around here in the SLC, but why not think about how you can utilize these suburbs instead of accusing them for all your problems down town? The SLC area can have many booming burbs with vibrant mini-down towns - Sugar House, West Valley, Daybreak, Cottonwood, Sandy, Lehi, Farmington, Roy Air Force Base area, Ogden, Provo, Park City, etc. - while still having a booming down town. (Note: when I say "mini-down town" I'm not talking an SLC style down town; just a simple hub with a nice shopping district, lots of pedestrian traffic, easy bus/rail access, and a few small low to mid-rises). To succceed in this, SLC just needs to build a down town that draws these suburban people in. These mini suburban hubs can handle suburban people's day-to-day errends, but they will flow into down town SLC for special events or to go to special stores or atracttions.

It seems to me like some people on here (like Urbanboy) want down town SLC to be the sole center that forces all people in the suburbs to come into town for all their needs for every reason. I advocate for self-sustaining suburbs in conjunction with an major regional economic/cultural focal point that draws people into it. Kinda like the Milky Way - Daybreak is like a little solar system revolving around the massive galaxy center (down town SLC). I don't want a super mega-solar system, but a galaxy - a large, powerful center with less powerful (but powerful nonetheless) mini-centers revolving around it. Then, as the galaxy gains more matter, the solar sytems can become bigger as well as the center.

[skierforlife17]

I heard it proposed by Becker or that it would at least be discussed to some degree some time ago, and I was curious as to what people thought about the idea of blocking off a section of Main Street as trax and foot traffic only??? I think being able to have restaurants, bars, and stores to have a presence in the streets much like in Europe could be a very productive idea..

[urbanboy]

Originally Posted by Urban_logic

But I thought big blocks were bad...Remember how the Jordans can't ever create a mini down town because of the "big blocks"?

As far as traffic mitigation goes they are not the best. There is potential there to bisect the blocks with "living streets."

[delts145]

S.L. Council OKs $10 million bond for Leonardo

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,705284218,00.html

The Leonardo has a home in downtown Salt Lake City.

After months of debate about The Leonardo's financial viability, the City Council is prepared to release $10.2 million in bond money to renovate the old city library and enter into a lease agreement with the science and arts center.

"It's really amazing to see something go from a great idea to becoming real," said Leonardo spokeswoman Lisa Davis...

Leonardo science museum impresses judges, scores bond

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_11675114

..."We did a complete analysis," said Becker, pledging to keep the city "at arms length" in a businesslike, landlord-tenant approach with the museum. The mayor praised the center's scaled-back business plan that still calls for a seismic upgrade and silver certification under Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design.

The blueprint uses all three floors for interactive exhibits, workshops, classrooms, a catering service and a cafe. Up to 40 "road-tested" exhibits will be leased from San Francisco's Exploratorium, though Giles emphasized The Leonardo will not be a replica of that science museum...

.

[delts145]

Gallivan Center makeover is put on ice

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,705284220,00.html

The Gallivan Center makeover is on hold for now.

With a mea culpa from Salt Lake leaders, the city's redevelopment agency said it would delay the renovation plans and seek public input on the $6 million project.

"It's got to be done right," said Councilman and RDA vice chairman Luke Garrott. "We're not going to be pouring this sort of money into it again. … If we have to shut the whole thing down, it would be worth it."...

SLC projects put on hold Slowing down » Gallivan remodeling postponed; Marmalade developer given more time

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_11674808

Arguing the Gallivan Center is too important to screw up, city officials on Tuesday placed the overhaul of that downtown amphitheater on hold pending public feedback later this year...

...In another move attributed to the stalled economy, the RDA agreed to give developer Rick Howa a one-year extension on his purchase agreement for the east half of his Marmalade project on 300 West between 500 North and 600 North.

"It's not the rosy future for condos we all thought it was," said Howa, noting no bank in town will lend him money.

.

[WASDEN]

Originally Posted by skierforlife17

I heard it proposed by Becker or that it would at least be discussed to some degree some time ago, and I was curious as to what people thought about the idea of blocking off a section of Main Street as trax and foot traffic only??? I think being able to have restaurants, bars, and stores to have a presence in the streets much like in Europe could be a very productive idea..

I am opposed to closing off any more surface streets, including Main. With the CCC offering a myriad of pedestrian only streets, I think the kind of vibe you are suggesting can be created without any further disruptions to traffic patterns downtown. Although the reflection pool in front of the temple is beautiful, I would totally support reopening Main between South and North Temple. I understand why the church wanted to close this part of Main off, but it is incredibly disruptive to traffic patterns, especially when you consider the distance between blocks. The North Temple and State intersection is atrocious at rush hours, and it is the ONLY option for traffic Northbound out of East downtown now that Main is closed.

In a perfect world, I don't see why Main couldn't dive below grade (as it does off North Temple), and Resurface again at South Temple. The park and reflection pool could be preserved, and Northbound traffic from Main could be restored. This is my 'cake and eat it too' scenario.

A lot of people think SLC should have its own version of Denver's 16th street mall. Well, we are not Denver. Denver has smaller blocks and narrower streets. Personally I don't think 16th street mall is that cool anyway with those lame shuttle busses running down the middle. If we must create an SLC version of 16th street, I think this is better accomplished with a mid block street which could be PURELY pedestrian, rather than Main which has TRAX running down it's center (I think Regent Street would be a good candidate for this). Plus closing off more of Main further eliminates curbside parking which, like it or not, is vital to downtown businesses.

May I even go one step further on our 'block busting' topic. I would like to see some of these yet to be created mid block streets actually allow limited automotive traffic like Rio Grande Street through the Gateway. I feel this is a very pedestrian friendly street and also makes a ton of new curbside parking available to the businesses there.

[delts145]

Originally Posted by WASDEN

A lot of people think SLC should have its own version of Denver's 16th street mall. Well, we are not Denver. Denver has smaller blocks and narrower streets. Personally I don't think 16th street mall is that cool anyway with those lame shuttle busses running down the middle. If we must create an SLC version of 16th street, I think this is better accomplished with a mid block street which could be PURELY pedestrian, rather than Main which has TRAX running down it's center (I think Regent Street would be a good candidate for this). Plus closing off more of Main further eliminates curbside parking which, like it or not, is vital to downtown businesses.

May I even go one step further on our 'block busting' topic. I would like to see some of these yet to be created mid block streets actually allow limited automotive traffic like Rio Grande Street through the Gateway. I feel this is a very pedestrian friendly street and also makes a ton of new curbside parking available to the businesses there.

I couldn't agree with you more WASDEN regarding the blockbusting. While I like Denver allot, and would look to Denver as one of many cities from which to develop a few selective ideas for Salt Lake, I am not a big fan of the 16th street mall. I think we're far better off to utilize our large inner blocks. I think that there is allot we can do to further beautify and improve the ambiance of our established thoroughfares such as Main, without closing them off completely. Actually, IMO Main is turning into a far more attractive street than 16th. I would like to see some more of the Parisian style dining on the sidewalks though. I think Main is going to develop into a stunner over the next five years, and Regent and Richards will be trend setters. What I would like to see is the further creative development of West Temple and State Street. Not necessarily TRAX or Trolley, but at least a warmer and more vibrant/dense street level.