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  #2641  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2009, 8:55 PM
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Originally Posted by lawfin View Post
Hear, Hear....

though they do aid in some instance with TIF's do they not....prior to construction

I am unclear on TIFS
TIFs are a slightly more complicated issue though and another topic altogether

. . .
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  #2642  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2009, 9:59 PM
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Why should taxpayer dollars go towards someones major screw up?

I agree no way the city will help out, nor should they.

If you made a real estate investment and it went sour, would you expect the government to bail your out? Nope...
     
     
  #2643  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2009, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by FlashingLights View Post
Why should taxpayer dollars go towards someones major screw up?

I agree no way the city will help out, nor should they.

If you made a real estate investment and it went sour, would you expect the government to bail your out? Nope...
I am sorry to report that when you or any company that files for bankruptcy the government funnels the capital, which of course comes from taxes dollars. so, one way or another you and me, who pay taxes pay for all of the screw up's individually or for any company. This is where the government should stop this B.S. of raising taxes to bail out "ANYONE". If you go broke you should have to pay it back one way or another, or simply you cannot build it until the capital is there. Milton Friedman method follows the correct way that any country should live in a free society and stop raising taxes on the rich, it does not nor will it ever work for more B.s. entitlements. Good example is this utterly , stupid, ridiculous, TARP fund that is going through congress.
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  #2644  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2009, 10:40 PM
Nowhereman1280 Nowhereman1280 is offline
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^^^ Amen, Milt is probably rolling in his grave!

I know people in the business of buying distressed properties and they say banks are just about giving away properties to them because they know they can just go apply for TARP funds on their loss and save themselves the trouble of negotiating...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mehow View Post
If Central crane needed that rig on another project,it would be down by now.
Oh I'm sure of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlashingLights View Post
Why should taxpayer dollars go towards someones major screw up?
Haha, I was asking this last spring when they started getting involved in propping up bank deals!

There are some potential customers out there for stalled projects like this. There are very large REITs with all cash and no equity who can buy something like this and just sit on it. These sharky types typically make an offer to a developer that is something like .30 on the dollar and the developer angrily rejects it. Then these guy go "ok, I'll be buying the property for .20 in a few months when you are really in trouble". Then the REIT waits for the developer to cave, which usually happens, and then they get a wicked deal on the property. I don't know if Waterview would be a target for one of these funds, but I would think they would go for it (I'd truly be surprised if they hadn't made a lowball offer yet) if the price were right and Teng was desperate enough...
     
     
  #2645  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2009, 11:15 PM
MrLakepoint MrLakepoint is offline
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[QUOTE=Nowhereman1280;4072365]^^^ Amen, Milt is probably rolling in his grave!

I know people in the business of buying distressed properties and they say banks are just about giving away properties to them because they know they can just go apply for TARP funds on their loss and save themselves the trouble of negotiating...



Oh I'm sure of it.


Nowhereman...I just fell in love with you (not literally of course). I didnt think that there was another uncle milti fan out there....but thanks for the confirmation. I am so sad that this project didnt finish. I really would like to see another supertall here. I am sure that someone will come along and finish it up, but it may take a while because the banks have used all of that TARP money to shore up their balance sheets for now, but in a year or so you may see this have a re-birth at some point.
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  #2646  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2009, 11:28 PM
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I thought I was the only milton friedman lover. This is crazy. "Capitalism and Freedom" is sitting on my desk right now.

Anyway, I would agree that there is no need for the government to intervene in this.

I think the real question in all of this is what is going to happen to the buyers in this building. Will they look at the spire or will they be too gun shy about buying in a building that is yet to exist?

Last edited by Buckman821; Feb 6, 2009 at 11:40 PM.
     
     
  #2647  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2009, 1:07 AM
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Originally Posted by honte View Post
I presume you know all of this because you have looked closely at the concrete mix design of this particular project?
Concrete needs to be sealed, yes? If the concrete is designed to be cladded (and it is, on Waterview) it makes sense that the builders would use a weak sealant to protect the concrete for a few months only.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom in Chicago
The city of Chicago won't spend one god damned dime of my money to "help" Teng or any other inept developer with their luxury condominium projects. . . you must be living in some sort of fantasy land to think that would ever happen. . .
Remind me again how many different sources of aid the city is giving to Joseph Freed for Block 37..... It seems like the city is very much in the business of bailing out struggling developments with taxpayer money, especially when the developers are politically connected. If you've been reading the news, you'd see that Teng is very much politically-connected.
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  #2648  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2009, 1:25 AM
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^ Yeah, actually, I agree with what you're saying. It's not as far-fetched as it sounds, as terrible / excellent as that may be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
Concrete needs to be sealed, yes? If the concrete is designed to be cladded (and it is, on Waterview) it makes sense that the builders would use a weak sealant to protect the concrete for a few months only.
Sorry if I sounded snide in my last post.

Most of the sealing bit is pure myth. In some cases, it can actually do more damage than good.

There are many, many factors that govern whether or not concrete will be a good performer in the elements, including mix design, cover, admixtures, orientation, and type of reinforcing. Most of the painted concrete high-rises in Chicago do not need paint for structural performance.

Now, on your second point, I agree with you: Given the nature of the concrete at Waterview, there is a good chance that one would like to protect it from the elements. But we cannot say that without knowing more specifics. I think if the exposed bars are kept from corroding, the structure would probably suffer almost no damage for the next several years. Pooling on slabs would be the biggest concern, and I don't know how much paint would really remedy that, since not all are pitched.
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  #2649  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2009, 2:37 AM
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cross post (CS thread):

well, push things along from a mass media angle, the NY Times ran an article on Waterview and the Spire a few days ago. The article ran prominently in the business section, with two large photos.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/04/bu...20spire&st=cse
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  #2650  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2009, 2:41 AM
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Repost^
     
     
  #2651  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2009, 9:06 AM
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Oh yeah guys, being an econ major I am naturally very libertarian, therefore I very much appreciate Milton Friedman, even in todays climate.


Re: weather proofing the structure, well remember, this is almost entirely garage which was made with the green rebar to prevent rust, I'm sure it won't be to big of an issue seeing as how the garage was probably designed with full, non painted, exposure to salt and rust in mind...
     
     
  #2652  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2009, 3:27 PM
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It's not almost entirely garage. Garage last floor is eleven.
     
     
  #2653  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2009, 7:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
Remind me again how many different sources of aid the city is giving to Joseph Freed for Block 37..... It seems like the city is very much in the business of bailing out struggling developments with taxpayer money, especially when the developers are politically connected. If you've been reading the news, you'd see that Teng is very much politically-connected.
Block 37 is a perfect example of why the city won't be giving Teng any money to finish Waterview. . . however your assumption that they are at all similar is flawed. . . Block 37 was much more complicated site that the city acquired after the failure of Joseph Freed's original proposal to come to fruition. . . however the city did NOTHING to see that original plan get built. . .

. . .
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  #2654  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2009, 2:24 PM
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This project is as good an example of any that deserves a "construction loan" from a US bank right now. It will put people immediately back to work, bring a higher tax base to that property into perpetuity, create another 5 star hotel for the city along with jobs associated with that, beautify that corner, etc.
I swear some of you would just as soon see this thing torn down and returned to a parking lot out of spite.

Maybe we can enclose it under Obama's weatherization program.
This thread is drifting again and should be locked down until some new news.
     
     
  #2655  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2009, 2:54 PM
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  #2656  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2009, 8:21 PM
mempko mempko is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nowhereman1280 View Post
Oh yeah guys, being an econ major I am naturally very libertarian, therefore I very much appreciate Milton Friedman, even in todays climate.


Re: weather proofing the structure, well remember, this is almost entirely garage which was made with the green rebar to prevent rust, I'm sure it won't be to big of an issue seeing as how the garage was probably designed with full, non painted, exposure to salt and rust in mind...
Its to be expected that economy students are indoctrinated into Milton Friedman's ideas. From my experience there is not much variety of thought in economic courses.

They economic incentive that I can see why the city would help out is because property values will go down and therefore city revenue. Unless chicago proper doesn't do property taxes.
     
     
  #2657  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2009, 12:00 AM
Nowhereman1280 Nowhereman1280 is offline
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Its to be expected that economy students are indoctrinated into Milton Friedman's ideas. From my experience there is not much variety of thought in economic courses.
Well you must not have had experience with a very good Econ school then. My school has classes in everything from basic Micro and Macro to classes that specifically tackle Keynes, to classes on mundane topics like Futures markets...

Ironically I'd never heard of Friedman before I did reading about him myself about 2 years ago, its strange, but they almost never mention him in 200 level econ classes, or even 300 level micro and macro. They mention that moron Laffer far more than they mention Friedman...
     
     
  #2658  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2009, 6:38 PM
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Outside of The University of Chicago is there another top 5 Econ school in the midwest?
...might as well continue to drift off topic....
     
     
  #2659  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2009, 6:45 PM
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^ no, no more off-topic stuff. if you guys want to talk econ 101, go start a new thread.
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  #2660  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2009, 7:09 PM
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ok, sorry.....
     
     
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