Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by Vancity

I would go for skytrain underground to UBC ^^ It gets people moving a lot quicker than LRT at grade (why would the city council want to approve this?). It would clutter the entire Broadway corrider, if an accident were to occur. I'd go for underground subway all the way to UBC. 200,000 ridership a day? It's possible, and that's a lot of people using the line. Infrastructure to get people moving around in a quick, efficient way, that's why this project has to go through.

Consider that 99 B-Line ridership was half as much before the U-Pass was introduced AND the UBC extension is still quite a few years away.

200,000 imo is quite realistic.

[nname]

Originally Posted by Lighthouse

^ I believe that was the original plan for the line back around 1999. I'm not sure why they didn't go through with it (funding?). I'm actually for that alignment, you get a good mix of everything: speed, capacity, and street presence of transit plus i would assume that it won't cost as much as having it underground all the way to ubc

I would think at least the underground portion will be cost more than Skytrain due to the higher clearance required for LRT. (higher radius need for boring or deeper tunnels and stations needed for cut and cover).

[officedweller]

"Light rail creating a noise nuisance for some in Tempe Arizona"
Watch the home video - the train dings upon entering the train, leaving the station, and starting from a stop at an intersection. You can hear the braking upon pulling into the station as well as at the traffic light.
Louder than I would have expected.

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/phoeni...-for-some-in/fQ4v1ELW5kO1IEaMalYX-A.cspx

[The_Henry_Man]

Originally Posted by Lighthouse

I'm not debating on the issue. The fact is there aren't many concrete numbers about the costs, future transit service to ubc, or future demands along the broadway corridor. In five years, there might not be funding available to build an underground SkyTrain, there could be BRT service elsewhere to UBC or more student housing at UBC which would reduce demand on the UBC line. I expressed an opinion that i like having an LRT system that is partially at grade and that i like seeing transit and pedestrian activities on the street level. I dont like being called a FOOL for that.

and i certainly dont consider something like this a trolley on steel wheels

Dude, that's not LRT, that's a streetcar, aka glorified bus on rails. This should belong to COV's streetcar project, not the M-Line expansion to UBC.

[Lighthouse]

streetcar/tram is LRT to me

what do you consider LRT?

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by Lighthouse

I expressed an opinion that i like having an LRT system that is partially at grade and that i like seeing transit and pedestrian activities on the street level. I dont like being called a FOOL for that.

You're not a fool. It's just that many of us here have little patience for those who can't understand the advantages of true rapid transit in this area. There will always be pedestrian activities on Broadway at street level, even more so around future skytrain stations. Personally, I don't need to see the transit itself barreling down the middle of the street, taking up traffic lanes in an already congested area. The goal should not be slow and quaint, it should be functional and efficient.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by Lighthouse

and i certainly dont consider something like this a trolley on steel wheels

The point is that isn't not going to be fast. Why are we paying millions for a longer, fancier train on rails, taking two and more lanes out one of the most widely used arteries in Vancouver, and then finding out we wasted money because we need something more efficient. A LRT is a short-term solution... hell what am I saying... it's not even a SOLUTION. If we go with LRT, might as well just upgrade our B-Line.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by Lighthouse

streetcar/tram is LRT to me

what do you consider LRT?

Streetcar = Electric Trolley on Wheels, close stops, etc.
LRT = Long trains, not necessarily electric though it usually is, far-spaced stops, etc.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by Lighthouse

I expressed an opinion that i like having an LRT system that is partially at grade and that i like seeing transit and pedestrian activities on the street level. I dont like being called a FOOL for that.

and i certainly dont consider something like this a trolley on steel wheels

A bus would do the same job.

And as for streetcar/LRT, it'll be equivalent to having a larger bus run along the same street.


To put it quite simply, the efficiency and functional operations of transit should always come first. LRT down Broadway to the university will shave off a few mins from the existing 99 B-Line travel time and would take twice as long as SkyTrain would.

[Rusty Gull]

From Langara Dialogues...

Resolved: Skytrain has run its course; LRT is the way to go.
Wednesday, January 21, 2009
Event details
7:30 – 9:00pm
(Doors open at 7:15pm, seating for the first 300 only)
The Alice Mackay Room, Lower level
Vancouver Public Library, Downtown, Homer & Robson
Arguing the AFFIRMATIVE:
PATRICK CONDON, Senior Researcher, UBC Design Centre for Sustainability
Professor Patrick Condon has over 25 years experience in sustainable urban design; first as a professional city planner and then as a teacher. He started his academic career in 1985 at the University of Minnesota, moving to the University of British Columbia in 1992, acting first as the Director of the Landscape Architecture program and later as the James Taylor Chair in Landscape and Livable Environments.
As Chair he pioneered multi party sustainable community design workshops now generally known as charrettes, starting in 1995 with the seminal Sustainable Urban Landscapes Surrey Design Charrette.
Since that time he has worked to advance sustainable urban design in dozens of major charrettes, and scores of publications. He has lectured widely in both Canada and abroad, and is the author of several books, most recently "Design Charrettes for Sustainable
Communities", Island Press.
He has been instrumental in establishing the highly successful Smart Growth on the Ground charrettes with Smart Growth BC and is currently focused on the Sustainability by Design project, a vision for a sustainable region of 4 million.
He is now a senior researcher with the UBC Design Centre for Sustainability, an urban design think tank that evolved from the original efforts of the Chair and now employees over a dozen researchers.

Arguing the NEGATIVE:
MIKE HARCOURT, Former Premier of British Columbia
As a former premier of British Columbia, mayor of Vancouver and city councilor, Mike Harcourt helped British Columbia earn its reputation as one of the most livable places in the world. His focus on conservation and sustainable development - and his resolve to contribute to the transformation of cities and communities around the world - has played a significant role in promoting quality of life for those in Canada and abroad.
After stepping down from politics, Harcourt served as a member of the National Round Table on the Environment and Economy, where he served on the Executive Committee and Chaired the Urban Sustainability Program. He was a B.C. Treaty Commissioner, and he was chair of the Prime Minister’s Advisory Committee for Cities and Communities and he co-chaired the National Advisory Committee on the UN-HABITAT World Urban Forum. Harcourt also chaired the Directors Selection Committee on behalf of Mayors in collaboration with Translink and B.C. Ministry of Transportation. He is Honorary Chair of the International Centre for Sustainable Cities, and Co-Chair of the International Panel of Advisors

[mr.x]

^ I wonder if Condon has ever rode the transit system....typical ivory collar academic scholar know-it-all.

[Lighthouse]

Originally Posted by deasine

Streetcar = Electric Trolley on Wheels, close stops, etc.
LRT = Long trains, not necessarily electric though it usually is, far-spaced stops, etc.

actually streetcar systems can have different characteristics. The streetcar that i have pictured is 45 metres in length and has a practical capacity of about 288 which is slightly longer and with slightly higher capacity than our 2 car MKIIs.


As for mr.x2, I love a good debate and I love playing devil's advocate so we'll have to continue once the ubc study is completed and we have some real numbers to debate on.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by Lighthouse

actually streetcar systems can have different characteristics. The streetcar that i have pictured is 45 metres in length and has a practical capacity of about 288 which is slightly longer and with slightly higher capacity than our 2 car MKIIs.

DUH. I'm using North American standards here. You will see LRT networks here 45m in length. It's the matter of length of time to move commuters, transfers, looking ahead in the future, etc. And where are we going to put a Maintenance Facility if we went with LRT...

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by Lighthouse

actually streetcar systems can have different characteristics. The streetcar that i have pictured is 45 metres in length and has a practical capacity of about 288 which is slightly longer and with slightly higher capacity than our 2 car MKIIs.


As for mr.x2, I love a good debate and I love playing devil's advocate so we'll have to continue once the ubc study is completed and we have some real numbers to debate on.

There is no doubt that ridership will be much higher than the 2002 SkyTrain/Rapid Bus combination study for the following reasons:

- added convenience and speed of SkyTrain all the way to UBC rather than just ending at Arbutus
- U-Pass
- ridership levels grown rapidly since and will continue to grow
- Canada Line transfers
- Evergreen Line streamlining
- Surrey Expo expansion
- bus improvements

200,000 is a pretty good number considering the Line won't be open until 2014 at the very earliest and also considering that 2002 projections for SkyTrain+Rapid Bus had it at 150,000.


As for streetcars, they come in all kinds of sizes and capacity can be adjusted if the seating arrangement is reconfigured. Right now, the 36-metre long 2-car Mark II train has a terrible seating arrangement.

[mrjauk]

I understand that Condon has been on an anti-Skytrain jeremiad for a long while. I'm not so sure that he's as much pro-LRT as he is anti-Skytrain.

I say that because anyone with even an ounce of knowledge in the cost/benefit analysis field would understand that putting LRT down Broadway to UBC is a complete waste of money. An LRT might work on 41st avenue, or Marine Drive, but it is absolutely bat**** insane to put it down Broadway.

Put it underground and look back in twenty years with the satisfaction of knowing that the right decision was made. This is so simple it almost defies credulity that there is even a debate.

[nname]

Originally Posted by mr.x2

200,000 is a pretty good number considering the Line won't be open until 2014 at the very earliest and also considering that 2002 projections for SkyTrain+Rapid Bus had it at 150,000.

And this figure at start-up would be higher than each of the 3 lines running out of downtown in Calgary's C-Train, which is already running 3 cars train with 150m long platform. In fact, the downtown portion of C-train is nearly running at max frequency and causing so much traffic problems that they are planning to put it underground at a cost of $550 millions for about 2km. I'm pretty sure underground skytrain will be cheaper than this.

[racc]

Underground SkyTrain is about the same $280 million a km or so.

[Jared]

Originally Posted by racc

Underground SkyTrain is about the same $280 million a km or so.

$2.8 billion/12 km = 233m/km

of course, that number is really quite useless without knowing how that arrived at it. iirc, the number are supposed to be as-built (i.e. 2020 dollars) costs. also, its not clear whether they priced this as using TBM's the whole way. The study will probably give a better picture of costs, once it's done.

[racc]

The section between VCC Prince Edward would be elevated, so that will be cheaper per km. I chatted with an engineer and he said the $2.8 billion would be plenty to bore all the way.

In Spain, they bore their subways and the cost include stations is $80 million a km. Of course, that is in 2005 or 2006 dollars I think.

[DKaz]

Originally Posted by racc

In Spain, they bore their subways and the cost include stations is $80 million a km. Of course, that is in 2005 or 2006 dollars I think.

Don't they have access to cheaper labour anyway?