DENVER | Transportation Thread

[SnyderBock]

Here is what I came up with...
I still propose this line be subway while in the CBD, but I have shortened this length considerably. Only Dark Blue would be subway. Light Blue would be phase 2 Street ROW. Pink would be Phase 3 street ROW.

Phase 1 (Subway):


Phase 2 (Street ROW):


Phase 3 (Street ROW Extensions):
This map also shows the other rail lines built or being built as part of FasTracks (in black)


So this leaves the Highlands area to still be addressed. One possible solution would be the Light Rail Terminal at Union Station along the CML, it will be possible to make that a through line to the North. So a Highlands Streetcar could come into the Light Rail Terminal from the north. It woudl require a sizable bridge or a series of tunnels and bridges to cross the CML, Platte River and I-25.

[bcp]

i like the simplifying route...but choose to stick to my 'cheapest most realistic' planning thoughts. those FT lines added really help, thanks!

one thing - the area you have in green above? as far as i can tell that will be completed with fastracks (and much of it already exists).

i don't think that a line through NW would be tough in phase 1...38th avenue has a good-sized catchment zone and lots of development happening. what about broadway / brighton? (master plan for brighton calls for about 20MM SF of development)

i can't imagine that RTD will do much tweaking to the central corridor, nor do i think they will complete the streetcar starter line to the capital (as orginally mandated in FT)

[SnyderBock]

Yes, the northern part of the Central Corridor is already built, that is in Dark Green. The FasTracks extension of it to ~40th/40th Street is in light green.

I did this part of the Central Corridor in Dark in Light green instead of black, to help it standout. I wanted it to standout, so we could discuss it's purpose and role and any possible extension of it (north or south).

As far as Highlands, what would work best? I see an easy way to serve Highlands with a streetcar, might be to extend north our of the Light Rail Terminal, join with the Gold Line to 38th Street and then west to Federal? Let me show you this idea...

[SnyderBock]

OK, here is my idea for serving Highlands.

Here is the key:
Phase 1: Subway Transportation Spine
Phase 2: Street ROW
Phase 3: Street ROW Extensions

[Fritzdude]

Originally Posted by SnyderBock

OK, here is my idea for serving Highlands.

Here is the key:
Phase 1: Subway Transportation Spine
Phase 2: Street ROW
Phase 3: Street ROW Extensions

I always thought a streetcar running the length of Broadway made the most sense. In fact - Englewood could pick up the cost of running it all the way to their downtown as well since it would boost their property value. Or - perhaps this would be too close to the Light-Rail line to warrant it?

Question: what is the black line heading west? Is that a "proposed" light rail line?

I like the idea of running streetcars down York and through Cherry Creek, but I'd prefer to see it continue to run south on York all the way to DU - rather than move onto Colorado. I don't envision people moving on Colorado via foot/rail - it's too auto focused. All the businesses are set back from the street and there isn't a lot of people living close to this area, which means that the rail wouldn't be highly utilized.

On the other hand, I could see a line running along Leedsdale since there is a lot of poplulation/commercial activity down this avenue.

Other question: why wouldn't you propose to have the colfax line run west - at least to Federal? This would allow the city to access Invesco Field and would be a nice change-over to a streetcar running north on Federal and serving Highlands.

[Scottk]

I'm pretty sure that the black line headed eastbound is the airport train.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Fritzdude

Other question: why wouldn't you propose to have the colfax line run west - at least to Federal? This would allow the city to access Invesco Field and would be a nice change-over to a streetcar running north on Federal and serving Highlands.

Because the west corridor light rail is only a block away at Federal.

[Fritzdude]

ok - I took some time to "learn" myself on the Fast-Track expansion schedule. For those who want a quick reference guide:

http://www.rtd-fastracks.com/media/maps/index.html

According to the plans - the West Corridor is the next phase that will be worked on:

Project Schedule
Jul 2008 - Construction begins on Denver Park Bridges
Aug 2008 - PUC application submitted
Aug 2008 - 100% Design
Nov 2008 - Full Funding Grant Agreement approved by Federal Government
Winter 2008 - Full Construction begins
Late 2012 - Construction complete
Early 2013 - West Corridor Opens

I'd be curious to know what is going on with the Bridges, which is apparently seeing some construction work right now. Edit: pictures of work done



Will there be elevated lines (like the southeast) or will it run alonside traffic (like the CBD)? According to the map - it mostly follows 12th - then 13th - then heads south to 8th - and then straightens out on 6th for the last 5 miles.

And to the previous poster who suggested a hypothetical budget of $50M per mile - I believe that only applies to Light-Rail, which I assume to be much more exensive than street car lines. If street cars are inter-mingled with traffic, the price is a lot cheaper.

FYI: for anyone who likes the layout of this message board - the North Metro Line for Fast-Tracks has a similar forum along with a moderator that can answer questions related to the line. http://teamtoolslive.com/northmetro/forum/index.php

It's a pretty insightful forum - and makes me wonder why the other Rail Lines don't have one set up yet.

[bcp]

^ THAT is exactly where RTD needs to start putting there stations...right above the major cross roads.

for god's sake, we don't need fancy walls, art, green space and kiss-n-rides immediately connected to the stations.

make them VISIBLE and developmenent and services will pop up on all four sides of the station while preserving valuable land (at the expense of a few more elevators). you also get much more access to the station (e.g. both ends and both sides)

the most egregious of the stations wold have to be hamped on the SE line. tucked away, hidden, hard to find, adjacent to nothing (wihtout crossing an 8 lane road) and not on hampden.

see chicago for good examples of station locations.

[Strange Meat]

A lot of stations (that I was at least familiar with) on the SEPTA commuter lines and some of the NJ Transit lines were like that.

[diablo234]

One of the downfalls I have noticed about the West Corridor Light Rail, is that RTD made no provisions for a transfer stop to the other lines.

I mean if a person in Lakewood is taking the light rail to downtown, he or she has to make at least 2 to 3 transfers just to get to 16th & Stout.

Hopefully RTD will remedy this in the future if they decide to run light rail on 16th Street.

[Strange Meat]

Originally Posted by diablo234

One of the downfalls I have noticed about the West Corridor Light Rail, is that RTD made no provisions for a transfer stop to the other lines.

I mean if a person in Lakewood is taking the light rail to downtown, he or she has to make at least 2 to 3 transfers just to get to 16th & Stout.

Hopefully RTD will remedy this in the future if they decide to run light rail on 16th Street.

Well, it comes into downtown at Auraria West... isn't that station being moved? Anyway, I don't think it'd be too hard to add another "line" that loops around to the east side and goes through the convention center, 16/cali, etc. I imagine that's more of a service detail to be ironed out at a later time, and that there wouldn't really need to be too much, if any, construction done to make that a possibility.

[bcp]

we know there will be one line goign West --> DUS but i wouldn't be suprised if another line went West --> DTC

[Cirrus]

I'm not convinced that either MLK is that high a priority or that Santa Fe is better than Broadway, but I wanted to see what people thought.

And yes, I think Steve's original route is probably more realistic, though also more expensive. In an actual corridor study, I'd expect both alignments to be included and fought-over. At this point, really just throwing out ideas.

As for Federal, I think antying other than 15th is too indirect between Federal and downtown.

[SnyderBock]

15th, ok.. That's what I was wondering. But I liked the idea of a Highlands streetcar coming into the Light Rail Terminal station along the CML from the north.

I then studied the plan and realized there is a clear piece of land along the CML to where the Gold and Northwest rail lines would cross the River and I-25. So this streetcar (single light rail car) line could leave the Light Rail Terminal at Union Station to the north, share tracks with the Gold line to cross the river and highway without any new construction and then branch off west at 38th Street.

See what I'm saying, that would save a lot of money. Then it could go south on federal all the way to a transfer station at Colfax, thus serving the entire highlands neighborhood and even providing a little more access to Mile High.

People in Highlands wouldn't have a real direct route to downtown, but it is overall short distances and not real bad travel times, even though it isn't real direct. Plus they will be able to go north or south on the federal streetcar and still be able to get downtown (because of the transfer station at federal/Colfax).

[Cirrus]

Well, the fact that it's so short a distance is why an indirect route is such a killer. As a percentage of the total trip, you're spending more time not going in the right direction. A 5 minute detour isn't a big deal on a 1 hour trip, but it's a huge inconvenience if you're only traveling 5 minutes in the first place.

[bcp]

^ great point...and the major issue with many of our bus lines...straighten those badboys out.

my emphasis was a system that mainly fed the city-close neighborhoods into the center. the other concept that seems to be emerging are lines that serve just their own corrdior (federal / colo). as and if those corridors urbanize i could see lines transporting people north and south. will people make those trips or should the emphasis be solely denver-centric?

is there a way to blend the two concepts?

[DenverTrans]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

I think a light rail subway between DUS and Civic Center is verly likely to be necessary within our lifetimes, and totally doable.
... And a short, 1-mile cut-and-cover subway is totally doable for a city the size of Denver.

I have a report from 1948 Washington DC that says, point blank, Washington DC will never need a subway.

However efficient a light rail subway would be, you do lose something -- visibility of transit.

[SnyderBock]

Depends on where the subway entrances are and how well they are marked. Plus it would not replace any existing or planned transit, so the additional subway entrances (as little or much visibility as they would give) would be, in addition to what visibility already existed. A net gain in other words.

[FrancoRey]

Originally Posted by DenverTrans

I have a report from 1948 Washington DC that says, point blank, Washington DC will never need a subway.

Indeed. Like I said....



Looks good no?