DENVER | Transportation Thread

[docroc]

Regarding, comparison to Seattle - clearly the Seattle region does have challenges that we don't - but don't dismiss the comparison so quickly.

Much of the alignment that was approved on Tuesday in Puget Sound pretty much follows the I-5 corridor there north out of the city towards Everett - as well as east over I-90 on an existing floating bridge - probably running the tracks in what is now a set of reversible lanes. So it isn't totally that you can explain Seattle's project is 4 times more expensive than RTD's (and providing less overall trackage) simply because of topography and geography.

Part of my point was that they probably did a better job of figuring out true costs for their system - then Denver did back when FasTracks was approved.

Of course there's every possibility that Seattle could run into cost overruns as well . . . as their newly-approved project goes forward. (That clearly happened with their first segment which opens next year, which went from a price tag of $1 billion to about $4 billion - and they also had to lop off a pricey part of that phase in the end as well - the segment running north out of downtown - which was, to acknowledge bunt's point, is a place where expensive tunneling and crossing water is at issue.)

I think we were probably just not in the ballpark initially in Denver to think we could do as much as we committed to with $4 billion.

[Cirrus]

I think a light rail subway between DUS and Civic Center is verly likely to be necessary within our lifetimes, and totally doable. We all know that eventually RTD or the city will have to find a better way to serve Colfax and South Broadway. Once that happens, connecting the Colfax and Broadway lines to DUS will become a major problem. Combined with the need to shuttle people from DUS to the office skyscrapers on the uptown end of downtown, a short, 1-mile subway between DUS and Civic Center will be the obvious solution.

... And a short, 1-mile cut-and-cover subway is totally doable for a city the size of Denver.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by docroc

Regarding, comparison to Seattle - clearly the Seattle region does have challenges that we don't - but don't dismiss the comparison so quickly.

Much of the alignment that was approved on Tuesday in Puget Sound pretty much follows the I-5 corridor there north out of the city towards Everett - as well as east over I-90 on an existing floating bridge - probably running the tracks in what is now a set of reversible lanes. So it isn't totally that you can explain Seattle's project is 4 times more expensive than RTD's (and providing less overall trackage) simply because of topography and geography.

Part of my point was that they probably did a better job of figuring out true costs for their system - then Denver did back when FasTracks was approved.

Of course there's every possibility that Seattle could run into cost overruns as well . . . as their newly-approved project goes forward. (That clearly happened with their first segment which opens next year, which went from a price tag of $1 billion to about $4 billion - and they also had to lop off a pricey part of that phase in the end as well - the segment running north out of downtown - which was, to acknowledge bunt's point, is a place where expensive tunneling and crossing water is at issue.)

I think we were probably just not in the ballpark initially in Denver to think we could do as much as we committed to with $4 billion.

I disagree... I think we were right on, for the system that was envisioned at that time, at the prevalent commodities prices at that time. I think Seattle is probably aiming high because of their past problems, yes... And RTD may have been deceived slightly by how easily they were able to put the SW corridor into the existing rail ROW, with little-to-no hassle from the railroads... but those arent exactly factors that a cost estimator sitting his cubicle has any ways of dealing with. I don't think there was anything necessarily wrong with the initial estimate, but it was just that, an estimate. You ever done one of those things? You get a list of nuts and bolts, and you put a dollar figure to them. You get a land cost from real estate folks, and bingo, you're done. But you have to base it on some firm configuration... the second that configuration changes, all bets are off. As for the Seattle comparison... we have basically *no* bridges. Certainly no substantial ones... that has to make a substantial difference. (I'm going to have to go google the final seattle system and see what we're dealing with... I have no doubt it's changed a lot since the last time I looked).

As for the subway in Denver... I agree it's do-able, but I disagree that it'll get done. Whatever transit we end up with east of downtown isn't likely to be a mode that necessitates a subway... I don't see light rail happening, and I don't see anybody seriously considering a subway connection to DUS for a surface streetcar system. I think its far more likely wed have streetcars crawling along 15th street the whole way. If we ever had the trunk regional light rail system connect into civic center, then sure, it makes perfect sense. But once they triple-track the central corridor mainline into downtown and the CPV, RTD will have zero incentive to think about civic center ever again.

Maybe you're right... but don't you think people would scoff at the idea of sticking streetcars underground while our light rail continues to crawl on the surface?

[myshtern]

So what's going on with time frame on this, is it moving forward or what?

[SnyderBock]

Originally Posted by docroc

Regarding, comparison to Seattle - clearly the Seattle region does have challenges that we don't - but don't dismiss the comparison so quickly.

Much of the alignment that was approved on Tuesday in Puget Sound pretty much follows the I-5 corridor there north out of the city towards Everett - as well as east over I-90 on an existing floating bridge - probably running the tracks in what is now a set of reversible lanes. So it isn't totally that you can explain Seattle's project is 4 times more expensive than RTD's (and providing less overall trackage) simply because of topography and geography.

Part of my point was that they probably did a better job of figuring out true costs for their system - then Denver did back when FasTracks was approved.

Of course there's every possibility that Seattle could run into cost overruns as well . . . as their newly-approved project goes forward. (That clearly happened with their first segment which opens next year, which went from a price tag of $1 billion to about $4 billion - and they also had to lop off a pricey part of that phase in the end as well - the segment running north out of downtown - which was, to acknowledge bunt's point, is a place where expensive tunneling and crossing water is at issue.)

I think we were probably just not in the ballpark initially in Denver to think we could do as much as we committed to with $4 billion.

Most cities (including Denver) can build Light Rail for $50 million a mile. Seattle (because on tunnels, bridges, ocean water crossings and earthquakes) has to spend more than $150 million per mile for Light Rail.

[SnyderBock]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

I think a light rail subway between DUS and Civic Center is verly likely to be necessary within our lifetimes, and totally doable. We all know that eventually RTD or the city will have to find a better way to serve Colfax and South Broadway. Once that happens, connecting the Colfax and Broadway lines to DUS will become a major problem. Combined with the need to shuttle people from DUS to the office skyscrapers on the uptown end of downtown, a short, 1-mile subway between DUS and Civic Center will be the obvious solution.

... And a short, 1-mile cut-and-cover subway is totally doable for a city the size of Denver.

I agree Cirrus. That is exactly the short subway starter line I had in mind, sometime in the next 50 years and possibly within 30 years.

After FasTracks, there will be a need to address the Broadway to Civic Center corridor. It was almost included in FasTracks. It will have to be addresses eventually.

I also see a post FasTracks need to provide mass transit to City Park/Denver Zoo area and to Cherry Creek/I-25/Colorado Blvd corridor.

These are three fairly short, inner city routes which will have to be addresses. They may simly address them with streetcars. I'm not sure. But Civic center Station will be their natural hub, not Denver Union Station. And when these lines come into Civic center Station, the 16th and 18th Street circulator buses are not going to handle it. A short, 1-mile long (cut and cover) subway line from Denver Union Station down 17th Street to Civic Center Station will be the best solution.

Can/will Denver build a subway system in our lifetimes? No
Can/will Denver build this 1-mile lone, cut and cover subway connection Denver Union Station to Civic Center Station? I think so.
Even if it's just a copy of the subway tram that DIA uses--it would get the job done.

[Cirrus]

people would scoff at the idea of sticking streetcars underground while our light rail continues to crawl on the surface?

My big fear with the DUS layout is that by sticking the LRT station so far away we're just creating a problem for the next generation to throw money at. A subway plan wouldn't make sense if it was just for streetcars. It's only worthwhile in the context of getting LRT trains into downtown proper.

So I'm talking about taking LRT trains from the CML and putting them in the subway. You'd either terminate both the LRT and the Colfax streetcar at Civic Center, forcing a transfer, or you'd then run one or both of them on mixed track. IIRC, streetcars can run on LRT track, but not vice versa unless the streetcar tracks are specially built to handle the weight of full-size LRVs. So if you build a subway for LRT trains you could run streetcars in it as a bonus, or if you build your streetcar tracks sturdy enough you could also run LRVs on them as through routes.

Charlotte runs cutesy historic-looking trolleys mixed in on the same tracks with its regional light rail. Denver could too.

... Of course that's all theoretical. You're right that RTD could decide to just pump endless amounts of money into expanding capacity of its existing corridors, but at some point I would think Denverites will demand a decently connected transit system that actually goes where the riders are. It's not like we're talking about a maglev to Vail here. A cut and cover subway between DUS and Civic Center should only cost a couple hundred million dollars. Considering we're talking about what would become the main spine of transit in the Denver region, that's pretty affordable. Really it all comes down to whether future RTD will want to provide (and whether future Denverites will demand) good service, or just cheap service. I suspect that once Denverites come to rely more heavily on transit, they'll start demanding it function reasonably well.

[Cirrus]

By the way, the subway topic is one on which Seattle can inform us. Their bus subway (soon to be converted to an LRT subway) is 1.3 miles long and cost about $400 million. It was built in 1990, when Seattle would have been close to Denver's current size.

But a Denver subway need not be so expensive. Seattle's subway is equivalent to a full-on Metro subway. It's two levels deep, with lots of fancy art and mezzanines. You can cut costs significantly if you only go one-level deep and use separate New York-style entrances for platforms on opposing sides.

[SnyderBock]

What do you think of this idea:

- At Civic Center Station, build a Subway LRT down 17th Street to Union Station. The Union Station access could be inside the Historic station, or in the underground pedestrian Tunnel. But to prevent boring all the way under historic Union Station, the Train Hall and the pedestrian tunnel (which would require two-levels deep); I would propose cut and cover, one-level deep subway right up to Union Station, then have escalators take people right up into the station--inside Historic Union Station.

This would be the starter line from which to be extended out of Civic center Station. I would envision eventual extensions from this subway, Civic Center Station being built to serve:

1.) Cherry Creek and down to I-25/Colorado Blvd Station
2.) City Park/Denver Zoo Area
3.) Down Broadway to I-25/Broadway Station*

I would not expect those three extension to be subway, their entire length. Coming out of Civic center Station, they would need to be subway for at least several blocks (0.5 of a mile or more). At which point they could come up to shared ROW Streetcar, dedicated at-grade ROW or elevated ROW.

The 1-mile subway line between DUS and Civic Center, would be the first phase and each subsequent extension down those three corridors, would be built as later phases (as funds allow).



*Perhaps with triple tracking of the CPV LRT and construction of this proposed extension--Cherry Creek and down to I-25/Colorado Blvd Station--the Broadway to I-25 LRT may never be needed. With the subway extended from Civic Center to grade-level and down to Cherry Creek, then to the Colorado-I-25 LRT station, passenger loads on the remaining central Corridor LRT would be reduced. So the South Broadway extension may not ever be needed now, if this was done.

[Cirrus]

I don't think it would be worth it unless you could use LRT trains from the CPV in the subway. It's not so much about getting streetcars from Civic Center to DUS. It's more about getting LRT from DUS to Civic Center.

I wonder if the tunnel being built for the bus depot could be converted to be part of a rail subway in another generation.

[SnyderBock]

I don't see a need for extending the Light Rail from Union Station to Civic Center. Not as a continuous line. I have no problem with the light rail terminating at the Light Rail Terminal at Union Station. However, Several decades down the road, I could see the possibility of turning the Light rail down the bus tunnel and running it subway all the way to Civic Center--as you propose. It's not a bad idea. But I'm not convinced the Bus Tunnel/climate controlled pedestrian passageway will become obsolete, so here is my proposal...

My idea is to actually build a new light rail line which serves parts of Colfax, City Park/Denver Zoo.Museum Nature & Science, Cherry Creek and Colorado Blvd/I-25.

-The idea is that Light Rail coming north up I-25 (maybe the I-225 Line from Aurora) could branch off up Colorado Blvd as an elevated line.

-As it went through Cherry Creek, it would be At-Grade, because I have determined that there is sufficient room (parking lots, mediums, etc) to have the rail at-grade through Cherry Creek, to save cost.

-As the line went north (exiting Cherry Creek District), it would go subway all the way north to Colfax, where it would go west to Civic Center Station.

-The subway would continue from Civic Center Station down 15th Street up to Union Station where people would take escalators up into Historic Union Station. From there they can easily transfer to any other line (if needed).

-I would also have a second line run on this same subway track. This line would share track all the way to Colfax/York, but instead of turning south to Cherry Creek (with the other line), it would split off north, come to at-grade and travel down the medium in the road through City Park to a Station between the Denver Zoo and the Museum of Nature & Science.


Here is the plan:

Phase 1:




Phase 2:
I provided two possible routes to City Park. I have chosen the Alternative phase that cuts through City Park,
for phase 3, because it shortens the subway length considerably and also integrates with the Chery Creek line much better.




Phase 3:

[SnyderBock]

My rough estimate for the total cost of Phase 3 is $1.9 billion in todays money. I think we could add $200 million for inflation and another $250 million for construction cost increases. That puts it at $2.35 billion in 2020 money.

[enjo13]

You can really cut down on those costs tho... run it straight down Cherry Creek and just throw some dirt on top

[bunt_q]

You want to run rail transit to a zoo and museum, bordered by a golf course? Unless you can convince the city to sell off the City Park golf course for a TOD, you're nuts - those two can't even pay for themselves with visitor dollars, let alone a rail line.

Okay, I was thinking the other direction... but DUS to Civic Center, that makes more sense I guess. Especially since it's too late for worrying about connecting civic center in from the south (the triple tracking will happen sooner rather than later). Hopefully our generation has some money left to actually do some of this

[SnyderBock]

Well, the at-grade spur from Colfax/York Street to the Museum/Zoo could easily be left out. I wasn't thinking of that as a TOD, but rather thinking people from all over the metro would ride into Union Station, then take that train out to City Park/Museum/Zoo instead of drive. Perhaps the station at York Street/Colfax woudl be close enough? It just seems the museum and Zoo have thousands of daily visitors and it would be nice if they took the light rail there, rather than drive. I also think it would boost tourists from downtown, encouraging them to go see the museum and zoo.

Anyway, that is optional, the main-line I have proposed is what is most relevant. Do any of you like the idea of actually combining a Colfax and Cherry Creek line, into one subway line? And running it down Colorado as elevated to tie into Trex

[Cirrus]

Snyder, were you not around a couple of years ago when J Church and I put this together? It's a whole series of potential "NexTracks" plans, ranging from very affordable to very ambitious.

As for City Park, the zoo is a little far, but the museum would be totally walkable from a station at Colfax and Colorado.

[SnyderBock]

I have seen those plans before. I'm attempting to combine what you propose as several lines (subway & streetcar), into a single line. That's why I go south on York Street instead of Colorado blvd. York Street has a medium much of the way, which would make for an easy cut and cover. It would take the line into Cherry Creek (eliminating the need for a separate Cherry Creek line). And by going through Cherry Creek at-grade, it will allow for an easy transition to elevated for going down Colorado Blvd.

Sometimes simple is best and I really like the simplicity of my new idea. Like I said, the spur up into City Park, whatever, that doesn't have to be included. It's worth considering though and it's something that the EIS would determine to be or not to be necessary.

As an alternative to that City Park spur, a future extension farther east down Colfax may in fact be more desirable and as Cirrus pointed out, a station at Colfax/Colorado would be more walkable.

The important thing would be to get this subway spine built first. After that, there are several possible extensions that might make since; like farther east on Colfax or south on Broadway to I-25.

RTD might run a circulator bus from Colfax/York Street Station, to the Museum and Denver Zoo. That would save more money and be a simple way to attract ridership to the line. Yes, there would be a transfer, but it wouldn't be a long wait or a bad transfer at all. It's a short route and with a 16th Street Mall like circulator bus running it during peak hours, it wouldn't be more than 5 minute wait times..

[bcp]

i was always impressed with the jchurch / cirrus plan and find it ambitious and the graphics are amazing. however, i think it's much too complicated and too many modes of transit...simple simple simple so that people know the system without thinking too much, and we can keep some costs contained.

i've been tinkering with the below plan...

- 4 simple through lines
- i say yank out some driving lanes and have dedictaed modern streetcars
- time the stop lights
- space the stations every 7 blocks or so
- 1 free shuttle buse loop in the center using 16th and 20th primarily (18th is WAY too redundant and won't encourage growth of the center)
- options for transferring / crosstown lines
- numerous intersections with Fastracks (large circles)

thoughts? anybody want to make this look pretty?

[The Dirt]

I like your plan (and all the plans' shoulders that it stands on).

Only a couple of comments. The blue line seems a bit too redundant. Get rid of the middle and split the north from the south and make them spurs. Also, Federal could have it's own line.

[Strange Meat]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Snyder, were you not around a couple of years ago when J Church and I put this together? It's a whole series of potential "NexTracks" plans, ranging from very affordable to very ambitious.

As for City Park, the zoo is a little far, but the museum would be totally walkable from a station at Colfax and Colorado.

Alternative D makes me hard.