Hamilton Votes 2008 - Page 7

SteelTown · #**121** Posted **Sep 18, 2008, 2:47 AM**

Liberal Leader Stéphane Dion in Hamilton

http://www.thespec.com/videogallery/436933

raisethehammer · #**122** Posted **Sep 18, 2008, 2:54 AM**

he's such a clown.
Harper might win a majority just because people don't want any chance of this guy becoming PM.
Horrible choice by the Liberal machine.

matt602 · #**123** Posted **Sep 18, 2008, 5:19 AM**

Lots and lots of DiIanni signs in my area, especially along Barton East. I think the NDP is gonna lose their spot.

markbarbera · #**124** Posted **Sep 18, 2008, 11:28 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

he's such a clown.
Harper might win a majority just because people don't want any chance of this guy becoming PM.

Why would you dismiss him so roundly as a clown? Is this based on careful consideration of his policy proposals? Are you considering his ministerial experiences or his tenure as an educator? Do you acknowledge his leadership role in the international community's driving force to address climate change? Are you acknowledging his achievement of neutralizing the separatist movement as author of Canada's Clarity Act? Or are you simply basing it on his heavy French accent that may offend an anglophone xenophobe's ears?

Honestly with such shallow observations like that I'll change my earlier sentiment and say I am quite relieved you have chosen not to vote in this election.

FairHamilton · #**125** Posted **Sep 18, 2008, 12:54 PM**

I think all leaders make mis-steps and are 'clowns' from time-to-time.

i.e. Harper talking about tough action on cigarellos in a town that's heard announcements of 1,000 jobs ending in the last few weeks. I'm surprised he didn't outlaw spaghetti westerns..........

i.e. Dion riding the 9:12am Burlington to Toronto GO Train this morning. If you want to connect with common people, the majority of them start work by 9am........

SteelTown · #**126** Posted **Sep 18, 2008, 1:01 PM**

^ Dion on the GO Train is probably more of a show for his support of Metrolinx and MoveOntario 2020, which I believe the plans are suppose to be released today, I think.

raisethehammer · #**127** Posted **Sep 18, 2008, 1:04 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by markbarbera

Why would you dismiss him so roundly as a clown? Is this based on careful consideration of his policy proposals? Are you considering his ministerial experiences or his tenure as an educator? Do you acknowledge his leadership role in the international community's driving force to address climate change? Are you acknowledging his achievement of neutralizing the separatist movement as author of Canada's Clarity Act? Or are you simply basing it on his heavy French accent that may offend an anglophone xenophobe's ears?

Honestly with such shallow observations like that I'll change my earlier sentiment and say I am quite relieved you have chosen not to vote in this election.

I won't even bother responding to this since your entire post is predicated on apparently "knowing" that I have a problem with his french accent. Where'd you pull that from?? Chretien had a heavy accent and seemed to do just fine.
Next time feel free to ask some basic questions before accusing someone of something from so far out in left field.

BrianE · #**128** Posted **Sep 18, 2008, 1:38 PM**

Got a call yesterday from the Christopherson campaign. Just calling to ask if I would be voting for him.

I'm really torn on this one. My opinions and issues match very well with the Liberal platform and I really don't exactly agree with a lot of NDP policies... but damn, hes' the only candidate that has his shit together.

What's the secret to winning to Hamilton Centre? Just show up get your name out there.

markbarbera · #**129** Posted **Sep 18, 2008, 2:08 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

I won't even bother responding to this since your entire post is predicated on apparently "knowing" that I have a problem with his french accent. Where'd you pull that from?? Chretien had a heavy accent and seemed to do just fine.
Next time feel free to ask some basic questions before accusing someone of something from so far out in left field.

Did you read my post? It is a series of basic questions asking why you think he was a clown. And, after reading it again, you'll see I did not accuse you of having a problem with his French accent. What I do have a problem with is a summary judgement being passed upon him that is not substantiated in any way. You may want to follow your own advice.

raisethehammer · #**130** Posted **Sep 18, 2008, 3:12 PM**

so you're saying I misread this paragraph?

Or are you simply basing it on his heavy French accent that may offend an anglophone xenophobe's ears?

Honestly with such shallow observations like that I'll change my earlier sentiment and say I am quite relieved you have chosen not to vote in this election.

markbarbera · #**131** Posted **Sep 18, 2008, 3:37 PM**

That is the final sentence in one paragraph, followed by an opening sentence in a second paragraph. The final sentence in the first paragraph is the last in a series of questions trying to determine why you would simply dismiss him as a clown. Proper context would have been preserved if the enitre paragraph was quoted. The next paragraph is a closing statement meant to reiterate my frustration that you would simply dismiss him as a clown without offering your rationale as to why, and my relief that this is being practiced by someone who does not intend to vote.

It seem you have created an interesting straw man here. You are extrapolating my commentary unreasonably so to avoid having to explain your rationale for labelling Dion as a clown. Why is that?

ryan_mcgreal · #**132** Posted **Sep 18, 2008, 4:20 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

Next time feel free to ask some basic questions before accusing someone of something from so far out in left field.

Okay, so why do you think he's a clown?

FairHamilton · #**133** Posted **Sep 18, 2008, 4:38 PM**

http://thespec.com/News/BreakingNews/article/437302

A clown, an elitist, or simply misguided? I don't know the answer, but I certainly have an opinion. What I think, is that he's not connecting with the common voter. There seems to be a lack of engagement to the man, and to his policies.

Millstone · #**134** Posted **Sep 18, 2008, 4:47 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteelTown

^ Dion on the GO Train is probably more of a show for his support of Metrolinx and MoveOntario 2020, which I believe the plans are suppose to be released today, I think.

Dion on the GO Train was supposed to be an opportunity for him to "rub shoulders" with commuters but just became a photo op for Liberal candidates.

ryan_mcgreal · #**135** Posted **Sep 18, 2008, 5:23 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by FairHamilton

A clown, an elitist, or simply misguided? I don't know the answer, but I certainly have an opinion. What I think, is that he's not connecting with the common voter. There seems to be a lack of engagement to the man, and to his policies.

I think a big part of the problem is that he's a policy wonk, not a politician.

Generally, successful politicians are what psychologists call "high self-monitors", highly sensitive to subtle non-verbal cues from others and able to shift their stance, presentation and delivery in response. High self-monitors are good at connecting with others, good at schmoozing, and good at communicating with people in their own language (both verbal and non-verbal).

Now, it's possible to be successful at politics even if you're not a high self-monitor, but to do this you need to run a very tightly organized campaign that successfully manages your image for you. An excellent case in point is Stephen Harper, another policy wonk who overcame his inability to schmooze with an extremely well-executed communications program that controlled the party message and strictly limited his off-the-cuff exposure to reporters and the public.

What Harper lacks in interpersonal skills he has been able to make up in organizational skills and in putting together a highly effective, disciplined campaign team (particularly his manager Doug Finley and his advisor Tom Flanagan).

Dion doesn't seem to have been able to do the same. He's an archetypal academic, approaching the campaign the way he might approach a research project. Reports keep emerging from inside the party that he's frozen out the experienced campaign managers, effectively disabling the Big Red Machine when he really needs it to sell a tax plan that is poorly understood and makes a lot of people nervous.

So: he doesn't connect with the media, he doesn't connect with voters, he hasn't set up an effective campaign team, he hasn't done a good job of explaining the Green Shift (I had to wade through pages of boilerplate before I could even find the plan's main points), and he's a stilted, inarticulate speaker in both English and (I'm told) French.

Successful politicians don't just make good platforms; they also sell those platforms. It doesn't matter how good your platform is - and I think a revenue neutral carbon tax is a pretty good platform - if you can't sell it.

I think Dion would have been much better off as a Liberal policy advisor than a leader.

FairHamilton · #**136** Posted **Sep 18, 2008, 5:59 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryan_mcgreal

It doesn't matter how good your platform is - and I think a revenue neutral carbon tax is a pretty good platform - if you can't sell it.

I agree with everything you say. The one thing is I don't even think any carbon tax plan is saleable. It's a foreign concept to pretty much everyone. If you ask 100 people on the street what they think a carbon tax is I'm guessing you'll get 100 different answers and only 1 person would know the right answer.

Also, as soon as people hear revenue neutral, they say "Yah, right. We are going to get gouged". Lets vote for the other guy.

I think his green shift would have been better positioned to go after business, and industries non-environmentally friendly actions, and introduce those measures while slowly introducing other 'revenue neutral' tax plans.

raisethehammer · #**137** Posted **Sep 18, 2008, 6:34 PM**

quote - "I think Dion would have been much better off as a Liberal policy advisor than a leader."

exactly. There is NOTHING about him that shows leadership IMO. He seems goofy, nerdy (clown was the word I randomly used, take your pick) and completely unrelateable to normal people. I wouldn't buy a pair of pants off him, let alone see him as PM.

Mark - all you needed to do was ask, like ryan mcgreal did.

highwater · #**138** Posted **Sep 18, 2008, 7:15 PM**

Charisma helps win elections, but it doesn't ipso facto lead to good governance. I'll take the policy wonk over the snake-oil salesman anyday.

Jon Dalton · #**139** Posted **Sep 18, 2008, 7:29 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

quote - "I think Dion would have been much better off as a Liberal policy advisor than a leader."

exactly. There is NOTHING about him that shows leadership IMO. He seems goofy, nerdy (clown was the word I randomly used, take your pick) and completely unrelateable to normal people. I wouldn't buy a pair of pants off him, let alone see him as PM.

That seems like a rather superficial judgement to me. I think the media turns it into a big joke by harping on all their publicity gaffes and personal attacks on eachother. Every article I've read in the Spec makes some reference to Dion's apparent lack of leadership but never mentioned one fact or event that led to such an accusation. I'd like to think that it's substance over style if nowhere else, when it comes to choosing our country's top leader.

markbarbera · #**140** Posted **Sep 18, 2008, 7:41 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

quote - "I think Dion would have been much better off as a Liberal policy advisor than a leader."

exactly. There is NOTHING about him that shows leadership IMO. He seems goofy, nerdy (clown was the word I randomly used, take your pick) and completely unrelateable to normal people. I wouldn't buy a pair of pants off him, let alone see him as PM.

Mark - all you needed to do was ask, like ryan mcgreal did.

I see you haven't either of us directly yet. What makes him a clown?