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  #1201  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2008, 12:13 AM
Greco Roman Greco Roman is offline
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thats uncalled for
No way man. I fight fire with fire when trolls are concerned.
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  #1202  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2008, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by trueviking View Post
i dont really understand why the terminus is the forks....who goes to the forks by transit?...the only justification for rapid transit is to serve commuters...nobody commutes to the forks.....do we not have any planners at all...the termination point has to be the graham avanue transit mall, where people can feed to busses across the city....are the tens of thousands of commuters supposed to go from jubilee to the forks and then walk to graham or wherever in downtown they work?

at 130m for a line from jubilee to the forks, you can see why LRT is a pipe dream....that is a big chunk of change for such a small line....im not sure exactly who will use it for the first stage at least...there isnt exactly a huge population base around jubilee.

anyways...its a start.
Yaa, but how is it that the NDP has a half billion for a needless floodway expansion.

It's a question of priorities, the money is there if the will is.

We should be building for the future.
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  #1203  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2008, 1:10 AM
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This is everything the BRT supporters wanted ... plus. Forget diamond lane BS .. as this BRT will have a designated line all to itself.

The best thing is this will lead into a real light-rail rapid transit in the future.

Once again Katz reaffirms his position as the best myor Winnipeg has had in my lifetime.
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  #1204  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2008, 1:19 AM
Geebrr Geebrr is offline
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Originally Posted by Greco Roman View Post
Wonderful. Now we have another Markus41, Waterlooson, and what's his face from Regina on our hands.

Go away please. Oh wait, you will be going away soon once the "big one" swallows up the entire lower mainland. Sucks to be you
Doubt it even takes that long, these are the kind of people who get killed in ways that are much more amusing and hilarious than normal people.

I'm think the headline goes something like "Man mauled by bear at city zoo after jumping in pen". With the sub heading "Bear given key to the city for doing society a favour, states he wishes it could have been dopey Markus41 as well"
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  #1205  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2008, 1:27 AM
Greco Roman Greco Roman is offline
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Originally Posted by newflyer View Post
This is everything the BRT supporters wanted ... plus. Forget diamond lane BS .. as this BRT will have a designated line all to itself.

The best thing is this will lead into a real light-rail rapid transit in the future.

Once again Katz reaffirms his position as the best myor Winnipeg has had in my lifetime.
I believe that lines along Portage Avenue will be diamond.
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  #1206  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2008, 1:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Greco Roman View Post
I believe that lines along Portage Avenue will be diamond.
How can it be?

Aren't these fancy brt buses automated / self-guided ? I thought they had censors embedded in the road that allowed for the vehicles to be driverless.

If so, some jackass parking his car in the curb lane could shut down the whole system.
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  #1207  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2008, 1:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Greco Roman View Post
I believe that lines along Portage Avenue will be diamond.
for now they would be but in the future things can be changed around to a elevated lrt set up down portage ave...
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  #1208  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2008, 1:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Geebrr View Post
Doubt it even takes that long, these are the kind of people who get killed in ways that are much more amusing and hilarious than normal people.

I'm think the headline goes something like "Man mauled by bear at city zoo after jumping in pen". With the sub heading "Bear given key to the city for doing society a favour, states he wishes it could have been dopey Markus41 as well"
Interesting observation.
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  #1209  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2008, 2:18 AM
MichaelM MichaelM is offline
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Originally Posted by Only The Lonely.. View Post
Yaa, but how is it that the NDP has a half billion for a needless floodway expansion.

It's a question of priorities, the money is there if the will is.

We should be building for the future.

Yes sir..................

Needless Floodway Expansion.

100% the Truth.

NDP SUCKS!
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  #1210  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2008, 2:21 AM
LilZebra LilZebra is offline
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Originally Posted by newflyer View Post
The best thing is this will lead into a real light-rail rapid transit in the future.
How long into the future will LRT be delayed after Phase I is built? 5, 10, 15, 20...25 years like with the Ottawa Trasitway conversion to an LRT?

I won't have it!

Quote:
Once again Katz reaffirms his position as the best mayor Winnipeg has had in my lifetime.
I'm not sure I'll vote for Katz in 2010 now.
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  #1211  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2008, 3:03 AM
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I just don't understand what it is that makes LRT seem so great to some folks. Okay, it's nice, it's shiny, it's "big city". It might even actually cost us the same thing in the long run although somehow I doubt that.

Without even thinking about cost, what does Winnipeg need an LRT line for anyway ? I've seen it pointed out that it's the inflexibility of LRT that is one of its selling points and the logic is sound. However, that's only the case if planners refuse to utilize a BRT corridor to greatest effect. While we build up the BRT corridor and make it as self-sustaining as possible (as in, developing high-density near the stations) buses still offer the versatility that Winnipeg requires due to it's low-density nature. By the time that changes (decades away) we'll have the ROW and most of the infrastructure in place already. Better to spend that money when it's needed than to blow it all now and pay to maintain it over the course of decades while we wait for the need to arise.

Then there's this issue of quality. Okay, that one strikes me as a red herring because anybody who has ever taken a ride on BRT knows that it's hardly the same as simply riding the bus on some random route. You're speeding along, there aren't any stop lights, there's no lurching every couple of blocks on average, and unlike with LRT, chances are that you won't have to transfer before you reach your destination. Well, the chances of actually getting to your intended destination without having to transfer are much better on a bus than on a train. In any case, in terms of quality, as long as the corridor is reasonably well maintained, it's not that much different from LRT. It's alot like riding the bus along Bishop Grandin except that you don't have to worry about any other traffic and the roadway itself is smoother as a rule. Just like LRT, you have stations and with any luck, all of ours will be enclosed and heated. Hopefully anyway although somehow I wouldn't bet on that much. That would be no different than if it was LRT though.

I'm not interested in picking a fight here. This isn't some jab at LRT proponents. It's just what I say it is though and I simply don't understand why it is that people consider BRT to be such a poor option. It's not at all. For the cost difference, we're getting a hell of a lot more for our money with BRT than we would be if it was LRT. Frankly, the versatility of buses makes them far more desirable to me because it means I'll probably have less walking to do when it's -35.
At no point have I ever advocated for on-street BRT. To be honest, the thought of calling that BRT strikes me as disingenuous anyway. When I've spoken of BRT I've always assumed we were talking about a system similar to Ottawa's Busway and that system is just as good as LRT in my opinion (or , at least, the difference is negligible in my view)

LRT is great I guess but it's just not necessary by any stretch of the imagination. Maybe in twenty or thirty years we'll need something like that but right now, what with the layout of Winnipeg it just makes no sense. A rapid transit corridor along Pembina makes a ton of sense but not an LRT option.

Edit:
Needless floodway expansion ? You're kidding right ? How close do we have to get total disaster before it becomes necessary ?
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  #1212  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2008, 3:19 AM
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There is a huge issue I don't understand, I thought BRT right of ways needed to be wider then LRT. So infrustructure costs for underpasses and overpasses will cost more then LRT, so in a phased process we end up wasting money.

Also by not creating a complete system ie. one that goes all the way to Bison drive, we don't give rapid transit an adequate chance to succeed. If you don't give the project the right resources you doom it to fail from day 1.

Ex. say we built the flood way in phases we build the gates south of the city and do phase 1 all the way out to Dugald road. Well when the flood hits, an incomplete system is useless. If we were able to find 700 million to expand the floodway, surely we can find the money for LRT.

It's not a question of finding the money, its about putting together a comprehensive plan that shows the benefits of a well designed complete LRT system then making the required sacrifices for investment.

Also to those who talk of a Gold LRT line like its some huge expense, don't use hyperbole to exaggerate the situation. Yes I understand LRT costs more then BRT but it isn't unnecessary frivolous things like gold rails its an investment in solid efficient infrastructure that is meant to serve the citizens of this fine city for years to come.

Also LRT uses electricity which if I'm not mistaken this province has lots of, while not so much of that oil stuff that seems to be going up in price lately. Hmm maybe planning for the future with LRT would be a good way to hedge against full price increases.

Does anyone have some information details about the plan? Such as the lengths of over and underpasses etc etc actual infrastructure costs. I think we should contact Bombardier to see how much more and LRT plan for this plan would cost. I don't know if anyone at the city has done their homework well enough, to really say it is too expensive. If I'm wrong and then do have a report, then please lets see it and then use it as a tool to combat supporters like me. Produce a report on an LRT plan and lets see the cost comparison, because until something like that is done, all we can really do is take a best guess.
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  #1213  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2008, 3:20 AM
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Originally Posted by trueviking View Post
i dont really understand why the terminus is the forks....who goes to the forks by transit?...the only justification for rapid transit is to serve commuters...nobody commutes to the forks.....do we not have any planners at all...the termination point has to be the graham avanue transit mall, where people can feed to busses across the city....are the tens of thousands of commuters supposed to go from jubilee to the forks and then walk to graham or wherever in downtown they work?
The map shows the terminus being the University of Winnipeg I think. First downtown stop is the Forks, then west on Graham, then turning around at the U of W. Maybe it will put that Spence Street mall to good use!

The stop at the Forks is the first step in getting high density housing at the forks. Bring it on!
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  #1214  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2008, 3:25 AM
Greco Roman Greco Roman is offline
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Originally Posted by thegreattait View Post
There is a huge issue I don't understand, I thought BRT right of ways needed to be wider then LRT. So infrustructure costs for underpasses and overpasses will cost more then LRT, so in a phased process we end up wasting money.

Also by not creating a complete system ie. one that goes all the way to Bison drive, we don't give rapid transit an adequate chance to succeed. If you don't give the project the right resources you doom it to fail from day 1.

Ex. say we built the flood way in phases we build the gates south of the city and do phase 1 all the way out to Dugald road. Well when the flood hits, an incomplete system is useless. If we were able to find 700 million to expand the floodway, surely we can find the money for LRT.

It's not a question of finding the money, its about putting together a comprehensive plan that shows the benefits of a well designed complete LRT system then making the required sacrifices for investment.

Also to those who talk of a Gold LRT line like its some huge expense, don't use hyperbole to exaggerate the situation. Yes I understand LRT costs more then BRT but it isn't unnecessary frivolous things like gold rails its an investment in solid efficient infrastructure that is meant to serve the citizens of this fine city for years to come.

Also LRT uses electricity which if I'm not mistaken this province has lots of, while not so much of that oil stuff that seems to be going up in price lately. Hmm maybe planning for the future with LRT would be a good way to hedge against full price increases.

Does anyone have some information details about the plan? Such as the lengths of over and underpasses etc etc actual infrastructure costs. I think we should contact Bombardier to see how much more and LRT plan for this plan would cost. I don't know if anyone at the city has done their homework well enough, to really say it is too expensive. If I'm wrong and then do have a report, then please lets see it and then use it as a tool to combat supporters like me. Produce a report on an LRT plan and lets see the cost comparison, because until something like that is done, all we can really do is take a best guess.
Thank you!
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  #1215  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2008, 3:27 AM
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ah, thanks flatlander, my mistake....i didnt see that there was a map, i had only heard about the forks.....i actually did know that the turn around is to be behind the CBC building....it affects something that i am working on...thats why i thought it was odd.....that is good news.

i still think katz is a putz, but he gets high marks in my book for finally capitulating on this....lets build it.

Last edited by trueviking; Sep 9, 2008 at 3:37 AM.
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  #1216  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2008, 3:29 AM
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how big was calgary when they built their first leg?
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  #1217  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2008, 3:54 AM
Greco Roman Greco Roman is offline
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how big was calgary when they built their first leg?
I believe that Edmonton was around 500,000 thousand, and my guess is that Calgary was the same.
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  #1218  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2008, 4:15 AM
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  #1219  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2008, 4:19 AM
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Calgary's CTrain was completed May 25th 1981. According to census data Calgary's population in 1981 was 593,000.

However it took 3 years to construct the first leg, so this puts it in 1978, while there is no census data for that year, in 1971 Calgary's population was 403,000.

So in 1978 their population was somewhere between 403,000 and 593,000 with my guess being around 550,000.

To give you an idea Winnipeg's population was 585,000 in 1981.

Sources:
http://www.demographia.com/db-cancma.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-Train
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  #1220  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2008, 4:44 AM
LilZebra LilZebra is offline
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Originally Posted by flatlander View Post
The map shows the terminus being the University of Winnipeg I think. First downtown stop is the Forks, then west on Graham, then turning around at the U of W. Maybe it will put that Spence Street mall to good use!

The stop at the Forks is the first step in getting high density housing at the forks. Bring it on!
And this will clearly be the fastest portion of the "rapid transit" route. Surely you jest.



I don't want more development at The Forks. Leave the land alone already. Just get rid of the surface parking and turn the rest into a New York style Central Park.
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