Winnipeg | Transit | Rapid Transit

[Pootkao]

Guys, this is potentially the first actual, real, veritable, oh-so-long-in-coming investment in rapid transit in Winnipeg´s sordid history. Its a step in the right direction.

Don´t piss on it.

Build on it.

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by Only The Lonely..

I totally agree.

We used to compete with Chicago back in the day, now we try and nickle and dime our way above Grand Forks.

I'd also like to know how much more expensive it is to build this thing 6 years after the fact.

When Murray was the mayor it was $75 million for the Pembina leg of the system, now its $187 million.

The project has more than doubled since! Think of what we could have done, and all the money we could have saved, had we just built the Pembina leg back then.

We'd be building a second line by now.

When Katz squandered the chance for govt. funding and a BRT that quite possibly would be in use today, he promised great community super rec. centres, none of which have been built, although one is under construction in EK on the former Bronx CC site. Of course this is being built at the expense of a community club (Kelvin) in a depressed area, the majority of youth programs at Bronx, and at a cost double ($3.9/now $7million) of what it originally was supposed to cost. This facility is also a merger with a nearby senior centre and will probably become nothing more than a super senior centre at a cost probably much higher than even the new $7 million figure. This new centre is also way behind schedule.

[wags_in_the_peg]

http://www.gov.mb.ca

September 8, 2008

RAPID TRANSIT AGREEMENT INKED BY WINNIPEG AND MANITOBA
– – –
$138-million Project To Include Dedicated Bicycle Paths


A rapid transit system and dedicated bicycle paths linking south Winnipeg to the downtown is one step closer to shovels going in the ground following a $138-million funding agreement reached between the City of Winnipeg and the Province of Manitoba, Premier Gary Doer and Mayor Sam Katz announced today.

“This is a significant infrastructure project linking south Winnipeg to our downtown,” said Doer. “It will help improve transit ridership and efficiency, while helping to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and meet Kyoto targets. I am pleased to partner with the mayor on this important initiative.”

The first stage of the Southwest Rapid Transit Corridor will receive a $138-million investment and will extend from Jubilee Avenue to The Forks with a second, future stage to run from Jubilee Avenue to Bison Drive with both stages incorporating bike paths into their construction.

“I’ve always said rapid transit is part of our city’s future,” said Katz. “Today’s announcement takes a comprehensive approach to link our city with hubs focusing on mixed residential and commercial development that will provide the financial stability needed to make this important project a reality. By laying the groundwork today, we can move ahead on providing Winnipeggers with quick, reliable and green transportation alternatives at a time when gas prices are an unprecedented high.”

Winnipeg will contribute $30.75 million which includes $17.5 million from the 2008 Federal Transit Trust. The province will match the federal transit trust contribution of $17.5 million and will fund 50 per cent of the net operating costs of the rapid transit system through its existing 50-50 transit funding agreement, fulfilling its legislative commitment under the Climate Change Act passed earlier this spring.

The new rapid transit corridor will utilize the innovative tax increment financing tool to capture any incremental growth from residential and commercial infill development along the rapid transit corridor. Tax increment financing is an investment and development tool that reinvests property and school taxes into certain areas to encourage infrastructure development that otherwise would not take place.

As part of today’s agreement, the mayor and premier also agreed to jointly seek a one-third federal contribution to the second stage of the Southwest Rapid Transit Corridor and agreed to work together to continue the development of a comprehensive rapid transit system for the city of Winnipeg.

[1ajs]

Originally Posted by Pootkao

Guys, this is potentially the first actual, real, veritable, oh-so-long-in-coming investment in rapid transit in Winnipeg´s sordid history. Its a step in the right direction.

Don´t piss on it.

Build on it.

thats what it looks like gota start somewhere and it sounds like they are in negotiations with the railway also

[Biff]

I was there. BRT. First stage - $138 mil - Queen Elizabeth Way to Jubilee with an overpass at Osborne and an tunnel to cross the Ft Rouge rail yards from west to the east side of the tracks. As well dedicated bike paths. Katz said he doesn't believe in BRT but you have to start somewhere. It will be designed with the appropriate grades, clearances and turn radius's for LRT (he said not to distant future) Not alot of details on the second stage but it amounts to approx $162 mil for a total $300 mil investment. Approx 6 transit stations designed as well for LRT.

...those were the facts presented boys - i believe it is a great start.

[madsad]

Hopefully this announcement will be the start of planning for a rapid transit system for Winnipeg that realistic, effective, and pragmatic, and not a pie-in-the-sky rail fantasy. Hopefully it won't be another "here is a couple million for a sprinkling of transit priority signals and five air conditioned buses" type of deal.

EDIT: Oops, spoke too late. Another lurch in the right direction, hopefully the momentum will continue...

I'm not sure where some folks here are getting this "Saskatoon is planning for light rail" stuff. There have been no commitments to light rail, or any sort of public transit rail here. There have been:

1. a few verbal ruminations in the media from city admin and mayor about buying rail ROW if it becomes available (this land may be used for light rail, and it may not), and
2. a documented mention for light rail planning when Stoon's population reaches about a 1/2 million, which is a long way away. I think this was in the development plan, or the 2006 transit re-do study.

What Saskatoon does have is a successful proto-BRT system, that is appropriate for the city's size, and can be adjusted and expanded based on changing ridership and infrastructure demands.

[flatlander]

I'm not clear on how this is being funded. $138 million project, $31M from the City and $18M from the Province - what about the balance?

[1ajs]

hey u guys are plaing ahead though witch is a good way to run a city

[thegreattait]

Originally Posted by theruler462

Details of rapid-transit system coming today
By: Bartley Kives

Updated: September 8 at 06:52 AM CDT

Gary Doer and Sam Katz are finally ready to lift the lid on Winnipeg's new bus rapid transit system.

Manitoba's premier and Winnipeg's mayor have called a 10 a.m. press conference to divulge details about a southwest Winnipeg bus corridor that will connect downtown with the University of Manitoba.

The city and province have been in talks about a busway since March, when Ottawa handed Manitoba $17.9 million for transit and alternative modes of transportation

In recent months, Winnipeg Transit has taken a detailed look at the costs and logistical challenges involved in building a southwest Winnipeg bus corridor that would run from The Forks alongside the CNR Fort Rouge Yards to Jubilee Avenue, where it would cross over Pembina Highway on a new dedicated overpass. It would then follow the CNR Letellier line to the University of Manitoba, roughly parallel to Pembina Highway.

The projected price tag for the project, which would also include a half-dozen passenger stations, was $187 million in July, according to sources. That figure includes the cost of land assembly, the new Jubilee overpass, realigning part of the CNR Letellier line and potential construction inflation.

The city and province have also discussed the possibility of paying for the project by creating a new bus-corridor financing body loosely modelled on the Manitoba Floodway Authority.

Katz and provincial officials have hinted they could set up a new agency to borrow some of the money up front, then pay back the capital and interest over a decade, possibly using tax revenues from developments alongside the corridor.

The province is expected to at least match a federal contribution of up to $17.9 million, and the city could devote money to the project from future capital budgets.

The city would also have the option of building a light-rail track on the corridor in the future, but has no immediate plans to pursue light-rail transit. In July, a senior transit official called the cost of light rail "prohibitively expensive," given the layout of the city and the fact an LRT system would require the construction of new park-and-ride lots and the creation of feeder routes.

Light-rail transit would cost eight to 10 times as much as bus rapid transit.

[email protected]

Hmm 8 to 10 times more expensive for LRT vs BRT so based off of 187 million Bartley thinks this will cost 1.87 Billion. Hmm that seems a little on the high side. its a 10km project approximately, so that's 187 million a kilometer, even Subways don't cost that kind of money. LRT is suppose to cost around $35 million per 1.6Km but depending on terain and the number of underground or elevated sections this can change. That's according to today's construction prices.

Check out wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_rail

The most expensive ever was seattles 179 million per mile in unstable soil conditions and some stations 180 feet deep, that deep in this provence and you're swimming, so that's out.

by my rough calculations 10 km (6.25 mile ) system x $35 million per mile = $218.75 million. Problem solved, so shell out the 31.75 million more and "—" we have LRT.

I don't want to get into why LRT is worth 31.75 million more but I think the general consensus would be that if we are going to do it, stop messing around and do it right from day one. Sure we could spend 187 million now for BRt and then another 100- 150 million (my made up number) when we upgrade in 6 years, or we can do it right the first time and save 70-120million, plus by then we might have it paid off.

"You have to spend money to make money" just make sure that a good plan is put in place and go with the best option. When the aquaduct was built they didn't have the money, but they had the vision. Then they went and hired the best engineers and went with the best option. They "planned" for the future and they knew that if they built it right they would do it once and that it would benefit the city for years to come.

Let's take the same approach here and do it right. Let's show the canada and the world that Winnipeg is back and that we mean business. We are willing to invest in our city to make it better. This sends a signal to businesses that they too should follow our lead and invest in this city and together we can prosper.

Ok enough ranting lets go build it.

[Alva360]

I'm happy with this announcement....

This is indeed good news folks!

Sounds very promising! I believe it was the Doer government that was holding out on us and now they've finally realized they need to be supportive and in on it in order to make it a reality!

It's a start and hopefully it will eventually lead to LRT.

Isn't that how Ottawa did theirs? they started with BRT and eventually transitioned to LRT?

[1ajs]

ottowa scraped their lrt i thought

[drew]

Originally Posted by thegreattait

The most expensive ever was seattles 179 million per mile in unstable soil conditions and some stations 180 feet deep, that deep in this provence and you're swimming, so that's out.

Winnipeg has unstable soil conditions...

180 feet down in Winnipeg and you will be surrounded by solid rock. Contrary to popular belief, the depth of bedrock under Winnipeg varies, but from what I have seen, it is usually not much more than 60 feet or so.

[1ajs]

yea and you hit maral (spelling) at around 15 feet

[thegreattait]

Originally Posted by Biff

I was there. BRT. First stage - $138 mil - Queen Elizabeth Way to Jubilee with an overpass at Osborne and an tunnel to cross the Ft Rouge rail yards from west to the east side of the tracks. As well dedicated bike paths. Katz said he doesn't believe in BRT but you have to start somewhere. It will be designed with the appropriate grades, clearances and turn radius's for LRT (he said not to distant future) Not alot of details on the second stage but it amounts to approx $162 mil for a total $300 mil investment. Approx 6 transit stations designed as well for LRT.

...those were the facts presented boys - i believe it is a great start.

Until I read your post I thought there might be a window of hope. Unless I'm blind at no point in the government article does it mention busses. It only mentions Rapid Transit, no BUS in front of it. However I will take your word for it that the BUS option was presented.

Katz dropped the ball after Murray,and look where we ended up. I still think its a waste of money not to do LRT from the start.

Here's hoping the conservatives have a tough election and then bust out a huge infrustructure spending program for Mass Rapid transit, so they can pull off a majority. That would be more environmentally friendly then some new Gas Tax , ( I mean greanshift) Plus if you believe in Keysian principles it would stimulate the economy.

[thegreattait]

Originally Posted by drew

Winnipeg has unstable soil conditions...

180 feet down in Winnipeg and you will be surrounded by solid rock. Contrary to popular belief, the depth of bedrock under Winnipeg varies, but from what I have seen, it is usually not much more than 60 feet or so.

My point was not that we need to dig to 180 feets, in fact it was the opposite. We have no reason to dig that far down, therefore we would not incur the high cost seattle had with their project.

Secondly, thanks for the info on soil conditions, I didn't know where the bedrock began, what I do know was that our water table is well less then 180 feet, so when I said we would be swimming at 180 feet it implied that we would be well past the water table and that water would be an issue before we got to that depth.

So if you did dig a hole 180 feet deep, you would be swimming, it would be a bedrock swimming pool with water comming in from above from the water table.

Can anyone in the construction industry or with engineering expertise comment on the costs of constructing sub-terraining structures in our soil conditions compared to other areas. I was always under the assumption that constructing underground structures in Winnipeg wasn't an issue other then the water table. Did Winnipeg square run into problems with unstable soil issues when it was being built?

[1ajs]

just thinking perhaps the new stadium costs will be part of phase 2? and that this phase one is to make sure its started so if the stadium falls apart were ot back to square one?

[thegreattait]

^^ Nice idea, I'm happy to see you thought that far ahead but, I somehow doubt they thought that far ahead for that to be the reason why its in two phases like this.

In all honesty they probably couldn't come up with a way to finance the whole LRT, so this way they could do phase 1 BRT, extend the line for phase 2 BRT, and then go for the original goal phase 3 LRT. All while construction costs rise and we have to suffer through a mediocre system during that time.


Timeline:

Phase 1: construction time 3 years ,,, estimated start time... TBA .. best guess July 2009.

Phase 1(BRT) opens: estimate = Fall 2012

Phase 2(BRT) Construction begins: Phase 1 would have to opperate for 1 complete season before politicians would even consider expanding the line. Then add 1 more year for discussions. = July 2014.

Phase 2(BRT) opens: (phase 1 took 3 years, my guess phase two will be similar) = estimate Fall 2017.

Phase 3(LRT) Construction begins: Again Phase 2 would have to opperate a year to evaluate its effectiveness and then another year of discussions. = July 2019

Phase 3(LRT) opens: since most of the complicated infrastructure is already created the switch to LRT from BRT should be simple especially as the BRT is designed with LRT in mind. Therefore construction estimate is 1 year.

Fall 2020, Winnipeg Finally has LRT.


Who says our politicians don't have Vision they just put in place Winnipeg 20/20.

That's what I call perfect "Vision"

[wags_in_the_peg]

for those not familiar with the route

http://www.winnipeg.ca/cao/media/news/nr_2008/080908_SouthwestTransitCorridor.pdf

[thegreattait]

Thanks for the link... I would have loved to have been at the presentation but I'm presently working in Novosibirsk, Russia. The Subway system out here is amazing, I'll give the USSR credit they might not have known how to properly run a government but they did know how to build Mass Rapid Trasit.

Is there a legend or more pictures from the presentations, what's that extra stuff in the downtown, part of phase 2 or is that from something else. Also what are those off shoots in purple near the potential jubilee station and osborne station. Where does phase 1 end exactly on that purple line.

[thegreattait]

$138 M for busway's first phase

Updated: September 8 at 12:34 PM CDT

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/breakingnews/story/4223190p-4860561c.html

Winnipeg plans to spend $138 million on the first phase of a $327-million southwest bus corridor that will connect downtown with the University of Manitoba, Premier Gary Doer and Mayor Sam Katz announced Monday.

In spring 2009, the city plans to begin building a busway that will extend 3.6 kilometres from Queen Elizabeth Way to the corner of Jubilee Avenue and Pembina Highway, forming the first leg of a bus corridor that will eventually extend as far south as Bison Drive.

The busway will be designed to allow future conversion into a light-rail transit route and will also feature a bicycle path for commuters. Busway stations are planned for Harkness Street, Osborne Street, Morley Avenue and possibly Jubilee Avenue on the first leg of the route, which also requires the construction of a bridge over Osborne Street and a tunnel underneath CN Rail's Fort Rouge Yards.

The corridor is intended to stimulate the construction of high-rise apartments or condos around the busway stations and use property taxes from these new developments to help pay back the cost of the project.

The city and province each plan to spend $55 million on the first phase of the busway, with the federal government kicking in $28 million, including $17.5 million set aside for transit in Manitoba back in March.

Another $10 million in federal money will be redirected from bus purchases to the busway project, Katz said.

He said he hopes the federal government will contribute to the second phase, which could be constructed more cheaply if the city is able to negotiate the use or acquisition of CN's Letellier Line, which runs roughly parallel to Pembina Highway.

The new busway plan differs from the plan proposed by former Mayor Glen Murray in that buses will not share space with motor vehicles along most of the route, Doer said.

The premier also said the new plan features far more detail in terms of engineering and design work.

Katz, who cancelled Murray's project in 2004, said that move was necessary in order for the city to focus on recreation improvements.

The mayor promised the busway would form a precursor for a future light-rail transit system but would not predict when such a system would be built.