ATLANTA TRANSIT (Marta, Beltline, Peachtree Streetcar, LovJoy Commuter, etc...)

[NativeAtlantan]

Doesn't "Express Bus" = "BRT"

I think it's one in the same but I am no expert by any means.

[Pessimistic Observer]

Originally Posted by NativeAtlantan

Doesn't "Express Bus" = "BRT"

I think it's one in the same but I am no expert by any means.

BRT is supposed to be faster than standard express bus options usually it means express bus with a dedicated lane.

[GTviajero81]

I was always under the impression that BRT, i.e. Bus Rapid Transit, was actually more like the people-mover at the Atlanta Airport, or also the metro lines in San Jose, California. Basically connected vehicle running on rubber tyres on dedicated lines with limited-access stops.

However, naturally, I could be wrong.

[smArTaLlone]

Originally Posted by NativeAtlantan

Doesn't "Express Bus" = "BRT"

I think it's one in the same but I am no expert by any means.

It could be BRT but Express Bus is also what GRTA is already doing. BRT is basically bus with some of the look and function of trains such as dedicated lanes instead of tracks.

Actually I misread the map which calls the routes in question "Expressway Bus". That sounds like it would have dedicated lanes which would be considered BRT.

[testarossa50]

High speed rail corridors just don't make very much sense in this country.

Europe has the luxury of everything being really close so they can get away with electrified rail lines that allow only single container stacks, forcing most of their goods to get dragged around everywhere by truck, but for us that kind of inefficiency just isn't responsible or feasible.

I'm sorry it isn't very sexy, but our freight rail network is world-class and it doesn't make too much sense to maim it in the name of a few commuter lines and high speed rail corridors. If you can identify a rail line that is actually underused then go for it, but lots of times these things end up being a half billion dollar debacle that forces double the frieght down another line's throat, pissing off almost everyone involved.

[Pessimistic Observer]

Originally Posted by testarossa50

High speed rail corridors just don't make very much sense in this country.

Europe has the luxury of everything being really close so they can get away with electrified rail lines that allow only single container stacks, forcing most of their goods to get dragged around everywhere by truck, but for us that kind of inefficiency just isn't responsible or feasible.

I'm sorry it isn't very sexy, but our freight rail network is world-class and it doesn't make too much sense to maim it in the name of a few commuter lines and high speed rail corridors. If you can identify a rail line that is actually underused then go for it, but lots of times these things end up being a half billion dollar debacle that forces double the frieght down another line's throat, pissing off almost everyone involved.

not to mention the rail companies are making a killing from frieght right now its almost impossible to convince them to run commuter rail. It must be really hard to acquire enough land to build a new rail line cause all i've been hearing about is leasing rail or using non used rail corridors.

[dante2308]

is it just me or have none of the proposals panned out at all? Weren't we supposed to have a commuter rail network, and new high-speed line, a streetcar, and a MMT center in the works?

[atl2phx]

interesting and encouraging numbers published by APTA this week show surging ridership in public transport.

i think the atlanta heavy rail numbers are particularly interesting.
atlanta boasts the second highest increase in ridership of all heavy rail systems in the US.
marta HR ridership increased 15% for 2Q and 10% YTD.
nationwide, average increases were roughly half the atlanta/marta numbers.

APTA 2008 HEAVY RAIL RIDERSHIP REPORT

[Andrea]

At one of the Connect Atlanta meetings it was pointed out that public transit in Atlanta has a very low percentage of riders among those who have the economic means to choose other transit options (i.e., cars). In our peer cities, ridership is significantly higher among those who could afford to drive.

In other words, in our peer cities, more people are taking transit because they want to and find it an attractive option, even though they don’t need to for economic reasons.

[smArTaLlone]

By Eric Stirgus

The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

Monday, September 08, 2008

Atlanta planning officials want to encourage resident to get out of their cars and walk or take mass transit.

Their ideas include things like a streetcar or express bus service on busy thoroughfares like Donald Lee Hollowell Parkway and Moreland Avenue.

“I think we’ve come up with some creative solutions for one of the problem areas for the city,” said Planning and Community Development Commissioner Steve Cover. “These are realistic proposals. These are doable.”

Officials are having four public hearings, starting today, to get last-minute advice from Atlantans before it goes to the City Council in October for approval.

The city spent $1.25 million on the plan. City officials said $1 million came from the Atlanta Regional Commission. The remainder came from impact fees.

TRANSIT

City officials say 13 percent of Atlantans, 69,000 people, live within a 10-minute walk of bus or rail transportation.

The planners say they think that percentage will increase to 63.5 by 2030.

The ideas include extending MARTA west to I-285, building a bus rapid transit line from the Hamilton E. Holmes MARTA station to Fulton Industrial Boulevard and running streetcars along Peachtree Street.

Also considered are rail options in other parts of the city, such as Campbellton Road, Capitol Avenue and Ponce de Leon Avenue.

STREETS

City officials propose adding 73 new streets and widening 22 roads. Most of the new streets will be extensions of current streets.

Officials say they envision widening Campbellton, Cascade and Huff roads and Cleveland Avenue.

The plan includes changes such as an off-ramp from I-285 to Greenbriar Mall.

At large City Councilwoman Mary Norwood suggests the city consider creating tunnels for pedestrians in some areas, noting that it’s difficult to walk in places such as the Buckhead business district.

PEDESTRIANS AND BICYCLES

The plan includes adding 200 miles of bicycle lanes. The city would restripe existing streets and widen some lanes. New sidewalks also would be built.

FUNDING

City officials have not come up with a price tag.

MARTA officials say the construction cost for heavy rail, such as their East-West and North-South lines, is about $215 million a mile.

They say light rail, such as trolley lines used in cities like Denver, costs about $75 million per mile.

MARTA hopes to get some money from state transportation officials and have suggested other funding sources, such as a parking surcharge, a gasoline tax or impact fees.

MEETING SCHEDULE

All meetings are 6-8 p.m.

Today: Peachtree Road United Methodist Church, 3180 Peachtree Road N.W.

Tuesday: Cascade United Methodist Church, 3144 Cascade Road S.W., Room 204

Sept. 16: Trolley Barn, 963 Edgewood Ave. N.E.

Sept. 18: City Hall, Old City Council Chambers, 55 Trinity Ave. S.W.

[testarossa50]

$75 million a mile for a freaking trolley? Let's get real, I'm in the railroad construction business and brand new mainline across the countryside costs $2 million a mile ($400/ track foot). Want with track paved in with expensive concrete that costs $200 per square yard? Add another $400/track foot. So we're up to $4 million a mile. This is a high-side estimate that includes demo, grading, transport, materials, & installation (normally finished costs are a small fraction of this). Hell, right now we have project that includes thousands of feet of track on a 20' embankment through a floodplain with a 300' rail bridge and the cost is still only $200/TF all inclusive--even the earthwork.

How about we get rid of all the pocket parks, road straightening, turn lanes, bike lanes, sidewalk expansions, pedestrian corridors, and add-on recreation areas then see what happens to the budget? Oh sorry, suddenly nobody's interested because it's not the political glory hole everyone was hoping for. Go to Portland, OR, and check out their trolley (which is supposedly a model for Atlanta's)...they just took some existing streets and added a trolley and it has worked out great.

Another thing that makes me mad about blanket statements like this is that LIGHT RAIL AND TROLLEYS ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS. Trolleys are single units that usually stay between 20-30 mph and can start and stop at the same speed as a car. They can also scale steep inclines, handle curvy lanes, and negotiate hairpin turns (ever been to San Francisco?).

Light rail is like a little train that takes longer to start and stop than a car (meaning it doesn't mix well with normal traffic, see Houston), doesn't handle inclines well (meaning you have to completely rip out a road and regrade it to install one), and doesn't handle turns well (meaning you have to either slow down or rip out the adjacent parcels to a road and straighten out the corridor). The tradeoff is that it goes faster (30-40mph provided there are few stations) and holds several times more people than a trolley. The most effective way to use light rail is by having it grade-separated from traffic for as long as possible, and only when you get into the center of the city have it go along the same streets (which will have to be completely ripped out and rebuilt). This gives you the advantages of heavy rail (the ability to rapidly move from suburbs into the city) and the advantages of a trolley (the street-friendly approach of the transit system).

Unfortunately I get the feeling that every transit proposal for Atlanta is either overdesigned like crazy or misses the optimal intention of the transit mode. Nobody has come out with a proposal like "hey here's an idea for a transit system that costs $30m start up and can be added on to in three phases, let's get going on it!", or if they have it gets bogged down in the city government, which makes to budget half a billion dollars by the time it's thorugh with it.

I'm talking something as simple as a one-way trolley loop going up west peachtree, back down peachtree street to 10th street, and back over to west peachtree. Two track miles, no parks, no bike lanes, no new sidewalks, no pedestrian overpasses, no upgraded traffic signals. Just get started.


Two rants in two days! I'm on a roll...

[wxjay]

Originally Posted by NativeAtlantan

Doesn't "Express Bus" = "BRT"

I think it's one in the same but I am no expert by any means.

BRT has dedicated lanes for the buses to travel over for some or all of its route. Express Buses share the same lanes with traffic.

[Andrea]

Originally Posted by smArTaLlone

By Eric Stirgus

The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

Monday, September 08, 2008

Atlanta planning officials want to encourage resident to get out of their cars and walk or take mass transit.

At some of the transportation meetings I've attended I have heard various residents speak out passionately against the attempt by planners to get people out of their cars and onto public transportation. I remember one man who basically said, "Look, you people need to get over that. Atlanta was built for the automobile and that's how we're laid out. If we wanted density like Boston or New York where we had to use public transportation, we could just go live there. But that's not what we want and that's not why we choose to live in Atlanta. How about you guys making this city better for automobiles? That's the kind of city we have and the kind of city we want."

Personally I'm a big rail fan, but I can understand where these folks are coming from. I'm not sure that trolleys and light rail are necessarily the gold standard for modern cities, especially cities like ours which are incredibly spread out.


P.S. testarossa, nice post. That's very helpful information.

[Pessimistic Observer]

Originally Posted by Andrea

At some of the transportation meetings I've attended I have heard various residents speak out passionately against the attempt by planners to get people out of their cars and onto public transportation. I remember one man who basically said, "Look, you people need to get over that. Atlanta was built for the automobile and that's how we're laid out. If we wanted density like Boston or New York where we had to use public transportation, we could just go live there. But that's not what we want and that's not why we choose to live in Atlanta. How about you guys making this city better for automobiles? That's the kind of city we have and the kind of city we want."

Personally I'm a big rail fan, but I can understand where these folks are coming from. I'm not sure that trolleys and light rail are necessarily the gold standard for modern cities, especially cities like ours which are incredibly spread out.


P.S. testarossa, nice post. That's very helpful information.

I wonder what tune those critics will be singing when atlanta is just as dense as boston in 30 years they probably wont care to much since they will have been forced to move back to the suburbs.

[sunking1056]

Originally Posted by Andrea

At some of the transportation meetings I've attended I have heard various residents speak out passionately against the attempt by planners to get people out of their cars and onto public transportation. I remember one man who basically said, "Look, you people need to get over that. Atlanta was built for the automobile and that's how we're laid out. If we wanted density like Boston or New York where we had to use public transportation, we could just go live there. But that's not what we want and that's not why we choose to live in Atlanta. How about you guys making this city better for automobiles? That's the kind of city we have and the kind of city we want."

Personally I'm a big rail fan, but I can understand where these folks are coming from. I'm not sure that trolleys and light rail are necessarily the gold standard for modern cities, especially cities like ours which are incredibly spread out.

The problem is that my choice to ride rail does not carry with it the same negative externalities that this person's choice to drive their car does. It's an activity that affects everyone else and is not sustainable if Atlanta wants to continue to grow and maintain the health and environmental quality for its citizens.

Sorry for the mini-rant, talk like that just gets me riled up!

Oh, and I know that's not you talking, Andrea

[Andrea]

sunking, I know.

I guess I just have some hesitancy about using the government's (i.e., our) money and resources to tell people how they should live. If it were the other way around, I don't think I want suburban advocates using city-employed planners to tell me it was time to quit using public transportation and just accept the fact that we weren't going to get any more sidewalks or public transit because they'd concluded that it made more sense for us to use private automobiles.

[smArTaLlone]

Originally Posted by testarossa50

$75 million a mile for a freaking trolley? Let's get real, I'm in the railroad construction business and brand new mainline across the countryside costs $2 million a mile ($400/ track foot). Want with track paved in with expensive concrete that costs $200 per square yard? Add another $400/track foot. So we're up to $4 million a mile. This is a high-side estimate that includes demo, grading, transport, materials, & installation (normally finished costs are a small fraction of this). Hell, right now we have project that includes thousands of feet of track on a 20' embankment through a floodplain with a 300' rail bridge and the cost is still only $200/TF all inclusive--even the earthwork.

How about we get rid of all the pocket parks, road straightening, turn lanes, bike lanes, sidewalk expansions, pedestrian corridors, and add-on recreation areas then see what happens to the budget? Oh sorry, suddenly nobody's interested because it's not the political glory hole everyone was hoping for. Go to Portland, OR, and check out their trolley (which is supposedly a model for Atlanta's)...they just took some existing streets and added a trolley and it has worked out great.

Another thing that makes me mad about blanket statements like this is that LIGHT RAIL AND TROLLEYS ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS. Trolleys are single units that usually stay between 20-30 mph and can start and stop at the same speed as a car. They can also scale steep inclines, handle curvy lanes, and negotiate hairpin turns (ever been to San Francisco?).

Light rail is like a little train that takes longer to start and stop than a car (meaning it doesn't mix well with normal traffic, see Houston), doesn't handle inclines well (meaning you have to completely rip out a road and regrade it to install one), and doesn't handle turns well (meaning you have to either slow down or rip out the adjacent parcels to a road and straighten out the corridor). The tradeoff is that it goes faster (30-40mph provided there are few stations) and holds several times more people than a trolley. The most effective way to use light rail is by having it grade-separated from traffic for as long as possible, and only when you get into the center of the city have it go along the same streets (which will have to be completely ripped out and rebuilt). This gives you the advantages of heavy rail (the ability to rapidly move from suburbs into the city) and the advantages of a trolley (the street-friendly approach of the transit system).

Unfortunately I get the feeling that every transit proposal for Atlanta is either overdesigned like crazy or misses the optimal intention of the transit mode. Nobody has come out with a proposal like "hey here's an idea for a transit system that costs $30m start up and can be added on to in three phases, let's get going on it!", or if they have it gets bogged down in the city government, which makes to budget half a billion dollars by the time it's thorugh with it.

I'm talking something as simple as a one-way trolley loop going up west peachtree, back down peachtree street to 10th street, and back over to west peachtree. Two track miles, no parks, no bike lanes, no new sidewalks, no pedestrian overpasses, no upgraded traffic signals. Just get started.


Two rants in two days! I'm on a roll...

I don't believe anything has even been specifically designed at this point. Thats just a ballpark figure for the type of light rail they are proposing and what it costs.

I am glad to see the plan to widen Huff Rd as that will really be needed.

[netdragon]

Originally Posted by smArTaLlone

Marietta line ending in Bolton? Huh?
Also the map shows an express bus route on 75 but no BRT.

Bolton is the area of Atlanta to the South of Vinings, centered on Bolton Rd and extending to Marietta Blvd where Bolton Rd meets Howell Mill Rd.

The Bolton area has improved a lot and just south of it there's a lot of loft and condo development on Marietta Blvd.

[wxjay]

Originally Posted by Andrea

I guess I just have some hesitancy about using the government's (i.e., our) money and resources to tell people how they should live.

Yeah, I hate that whole Constitution thing. And those county, city, and state laws. They always gets in the way. Plus, that whole "government works for the greater good" concept. I mean, who are the idiots who actually want to have the greater good served here? Clearly it's better for everyone if everyone looks out for numero uno and says "screw you" to their neighbors.

[wxjay]

Originally Posted by netdragon

Bolton is the area of Atlanta to the South of Vinings, centered on Bolton Rd and extending to Marietta Blvd where Bolton Rd meets Howell Mill Rd.

The Bolton area has improved a lot and just south of it there's a lot of loft and condo development on Marietta Blvd.

Bolton Road doesn't meet up with Howell Mill.