The future of Ottawa's Transit

[kingcobra]

Originally Posted by d_jeffrey

Wish me good luck, I have a transit system planner job interview on Friday .

I wish you the best of luck!

[Richard Eade]

Originally Posted by O-Town Hockey

... I'm really happy that the business community is jumping on board here. It's nice to see Ottawa finally realizing that not everything in the world is government run and funded, a notion that other big cities threw out a long time ago.

Of course, other cities have lots of big companies and industry: In Ottawa, we have the Federal Government and Nortel. Well, maybe Nortel doesn't count any more.

I'm hoping that the business contribution to the stations will be significant. When the City gave the money for the new Congress Centre, there was a stipulation that the Congress Centre must put aside 1.5% of the total construction costs of the new Congress Centre to help pay for a sub-grade transit station - when it is needed. That amount has since dropped to a fixed $1.5M.

The MRC/Delcan estimated cost per stations was $40M and they scaled that up with a 50% contingency buffer to $60M. The International Peer Review Panel thought that that figure was low. They felt it was for, at best, a bare bones station - read 'just the excavation and concrete cost'.

I expect that there will be higher costs than $60M per station once all of the designs are finished. The $1.5M that the new Congress Centre was forced to put aside will not be 'significant'. (The City is not even getting the interest on that money; nor any inflationary increase! Let's hear it for our City contract lawyers!)

[Luker]

good point^ I often read alot of what you guys say and just wish you guys where planning everything, I mean i have a vision and ideas to and played simcity 2,3,4 when i was kid but some of you guys really know your stuff when it gets down to it! just thought it was worth noting

[harls]

From the Metro Paper today.. thought I'd throw this in here..

http://www.metronews.ca/Ottawa/Edition



The lighter orange buildings are Standard Life phase III, 199 Slater, and Brookfield's lot at Kent and Queen (I thought they were considering 3 towers there, but this shows two).

[Dado]

I'd say that Queen Street is looking the most promising, which is just as well since it makes building a station straddling the old Union Station and the Congress Centre/Rideau Centre easier.

[waterloowarrior]

Doucet, staff at odds on when light rail construction will begin
by DEREK PUDDICOMBE, CITY HALL BUREAU

City Coun. Clive Doucet says commuters won't see any form of light rail in the city for at least 10 years.

Doucet said the public doesn't realize it, but over the next two to four years, the city will spend $1.5 billion on buying more buses and laying more asphalt to meet passenger demand and nothing on light rail.

"We are headed for a 1970s bus system," said Doucet.

'BIGGER BUS SYSTEM'

He says the public is under the impression the city is going to start building a light rail network right away, but that's far from the truth.

"We are getting a bigger bus system," he said.

And in a time when fuel costs are skyrocketing and governments at all levels are becoming more environmentally conscious it's not acceptable for a city, especially the nation's capital, to be building a bigger bus transit network, he said.

The city could have had a working light rail system in two years but last year council voted not to proceed with the $1-billion, 30-km Barrhaven-downtown route.

Council did recently vote in favour of a $5-billion transit plan, which includes a downtown tunnel expanded bus network, converting a stretch of the east-west transit line to light rail to Blair Rd. from Baseline Rd., and a light rail system to just short of the Riverside South community from Lebreton Flats, all to be built over the next 25 years.

Nancy Schepers, the city's deputy city manager of planning, transportation and the environment, isn't sure why Doucet thinks light rail won't be built for another decade.

EXACT COSTS

City planning staff are working out exact costs for the current plan and how much it will cost to move forward with secondary transit corridors.

Schepers said staff will be prepared to recommend what part of the transit plan council should move forward with first and how much each phase of the 25-year plan will cost.

"It's too soon for him to make those types of statements," she said.

http://ottsun.canoe.ca/News/OttawaAndRegion/2008/06/17/pf-5898156.html

[Richard Eade]

Originally Posted by harls

From the Metro Paper today.. thought I'd throw this in here..

The lighter orange buildings are Standard Life phase III, 199 Slater, and Brookfield's lot at Kent and Queen (I thought they were considering 3 towers there, but this shows two).

Hmmm. I would have thought that 240 Sparks would have been one of the possibilities along Queen. It already has lower level shops. Curious.

Anyway, I'd agree with Dado; Queen would look most promising to me. (Although there might be more high density destinations along Albert or Slater.) Also, when the next tunnel goes in, it could run under Laurier and be a reasonable distance from the first tunnel. (I'm thinking that future development will be along Laurier and south of there.)

[Dado]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

I like the idea of using the track to remove the spoil. Based on a 6m bore, and a daily advance rate of 20m, there would be about 565m³ per day to move. That’s about 1050t, based on 1.85t/m³. I think the average hopper car carries 100t, so 11 cars should do it. Would there be space for 8 cars (the night cars would not need to be stored) between the Bayview spur and the Prince of Wales Bridge? (I’m not keen on the idea of storing 100t cars on the bridge, although it probably wouldn’t be a problem for the bridge.)

I took a look at Google Earth at Walkley yard and did some random measurings of 8 cars; it comes out to about 110 m. Then I went to Bayview and measured that there is over 100 m of track that is easily accessed by the gravel service road between Bayview Station/Transitway overpass and the Parkway overpass. Some ramps would first have to be constructed to making dumping into the cars easier (rather than double handling it with loaders), but fortunately a ready supply of material exists for ramp construction - the spoil itself.

Perhaps the first piece of rail built should be between the O-Train head at Bayview and the Bronson Escarpment. (The Transitway buses would be re-routed along Wellington, east of the O-Train.) We will need to build it at some time and I think it would make sense to do it when the major construction of the Lebreton Flats homes is being done.

I didn't know about the homes but I had thought about using the light rail tracks for hopper cars as well, but I figured that would be way too revolutionary in this city where the concept of even being able to do it is foreign. And before someone pipes up about how light rail tracks can't take the weight of hopper cars - you're wrong. The O-Train line uses 100 lbs/yard rail, so does Calgary's LRT and the N-S LRT was going to use ... wait for it ... 135 lbs/yard rail. Ya, the stuff they use at coal mines and switching yards and anywhere else that very heavy loads are moved slowly or stored for extended periods. Don't ask me why they were going to use such heavy stuff - nothing about the project made sense, and the more you learn about it the less sense it made.

If I might expand on your idea a bit: If the first tunnel is made from the Bronson side, and then the TBM turned at the Laurier pit, the muck from the second bore could just be transferred to hoppers running through the completed first tunnel back to Bayview. There would be no need to truck the muck along the Transitway and dump it at Hurdman.

We'd probably want to have about 100 m or so of track beyond the tunnel portal for hopper car storage, but other than it would work. With a switch at the pit/portal, the cars could even be fed into the second tunnel. I wouldn't worry about diesel locos in the tunnel - their transits would be infrequent, there'd be no passengers and the stations might even be open to the air.

Any suggestions as to what to do with the muck? I fear that just piling it would create a huge mound. (Maybe a ski hill?) Gatineau is in the middle of a building boom - and is rail accessible via the Prince of Wales Bridge. I wonder if it will be needing crushed rock in a few more years? Or whether the City can make a deal with one of the local aggregate extractors to set up a rock crusher on site to produce gravel? The company could then buy the gravel (revenue stream for the City) at a very good price and reduce the amount it needs to mine from open pits. Or do we need to increase the size of any of the islands in the Ottawa River - a la St. Helen in Montreal? Maybe we are planning to host the 2017 World’s Fair.

I thought Mille Sabords wanted to create an extended island out of Lemieux Island, which is conveniently located right next to the Prince of Wales bridge for easy dumping. Otherwise, it would just become mixed crushed stone suitable for concrete and roadbed construction. We could dump it along all the existing railways to get them ready for double tracking .

Btw, a lot of the spoil from the Scott Street trench was used to build up the embankments of the Hunt Club bridge over the Rideau River.

[Richard Eade]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

http://ottsun.canoe.ca/News/OttawaAndRegion/2008/06/17/pf-5898156.html
...
Council did recently vote in favour of a $5-billion transit plan,...
...
EXACT COSTS

City planning staff are working out exact costs for the current plan and how much it will cost to move forward with secondary transit corridors.

Schepers said staff will be prepared to recommend what part of the transit plan council should move forward with first and how much each phase of the 25-year plan will cost.

"It's too soon for him to make those types of statements," she said.

Nancy is right, of course. It is possible that the City won't even have access to $1.5B in the next 2-4 years.

But, Clive does have a point. In order to 'fix' the problems out to the suburbs, it is quite possible that some of the suburban Transitway extensions will be built as the tunnel planning/EA is being done. For example, the Western Transitway link between the S-W Transitway and Bayshore will - I hope! - finally be completed. I expect the S-W Transitway connection south to the Barrhaven Town Centre will be completed. And, probably, the bus lanes out to Orleans.

On the other hand, though, he is wrong because the City will be spending money on Light Rail - sort of: There will be the EAs, the public consultations, the studies, the debates, the plans,..... I think the latest number I have heard was $75M that the City spent on the defunct N-S LRT project over many years.

I wonder if 'Franky' noticed the cost creep from $3.8B up to $5B? (And actually, at that time, I think the number was $5.2B and climbing.)

[Richard Eade]

Originally Posted by Dado

...
Btw, a lot of the spoil from the Scott Street trench was used to build up the embankments of the Hunt Club bridge over the Rideau River.

Hmmm. Well we are planning to built another bridge over the river, the Strandherd/Armstrong Bridge. Do you think we can wait?

Houses on Lebreton Flats? Yup, the NCC's and City's plan to re-develop the 'Flats' involves lots of homes along the new Rail Transit Line: http://www.capcan.ca/bins/ncc_web_content_page.asp?cid=16300-20444-20506-20510&lang=1&bhcp=1

It looks like you have been doing a lot of thinking on this project. Thanks. I think this is the strength of a forum like this. Everybody looks at things differently and makes a valuable contribution to the global understanding.

PS I hear what you are saying about that project.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

I wonder if 'Franky' noticed the cost creep from $3.8B up to $5B? (And actually, at that time, I think the number was $5.2B and climbing.)

The 5.2G$ includes extensions to the suburbs, as voted in May.

[Franky]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

I wonder if 'Franky' noticed the cost creep from $3.8B up to $5B? (And actually, at that time, I think the number was $5.2B and climbing.)

Franky says: "expect a 10% tax increase" just for public transit on your property taxes for the next 25 years.

[Richard Eade]

Originally Posted by d_jeffrey

The 5.2G$ includes extensions to the suburbs, as voted in May.

Yes. As I recall, it included the extensions to Kanata, Barrhaven and one line to Orleans. Then Councilors added the extension into Riverside South and the second line to Orleans. The price was not updated after the last two extensions were added.

An interesting thing to note, though: If $5.2B adds rail to Kanata, Barrhaven, and Orleans, then that is 'only' an extra $1.4B. Why was Staff saying that it would "double the price" to take rail across the Greenbelt? Could it be that Staff just didn't want to deal with the added planning and so simply picked an arbitrarily high number to quash the idea? Or is the $1.4B addition severely under estimated? Both of these 'guesstimates' came from Staff.

And people wonder why I have no faith in leaving the designing to these 'experts'. Sheesh. But maybe I'm just being cynical. I'm sure they must know what they are doing.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by Franky

Franky says: "expect a 10% tax increase" just for public transit on your property taxes for the next 25 years.

AyOp says: "Expect to be paying $2.50/litre by 2010 and to be paying alot more $$$ to be running
polluting buses on every stinking street corner."

AyOp also thinks Franky is to ignorant to write something with a decent amount
of reason to justify Franky's point of view and AyOp is tired en tabarnack!.
AyOp wishes also that Franky reffer to himself in the FIRST PERSON.

Thank you.

Happy vacation.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

And people wonder why I have no faith in leaving the designing to these 'experts'. Sheesh. But maybe I'm just being cynical. I'm sure they must know what they are doing.

The double the price came from Peter Hume, not city staff. If anything, don't trust politicians.

[Franky]

Originally Posted by AylmerOptimist

AyOp says: "Expect to be paying $2.50/litre by 2010 and to be paying alot more $$$ to be running
polluting buses on every stinking street corner."

AyOp also thinks Franky is to ignorant to write something with a decent amount
of reason to justify Franky's point of view and AyOp is tired en tabarnack!.
AyOp wishes also that Franky reffer to himself in the FIRST PERSON.

Thank you.

Happy vacation.

Loosen your shorts, man.

On a $2.1 Billion City budget, $5.2 Billion over 25 years (not counting interest ) is $280 Million/year which, mean about a 13% increase carried over those years. Also, in 25 years those rail cars will all be ready to be replaced, a new tunnel will be needed and we can expect another 25 years of high property taxes.

Now please tell me where you get $2.50/litre by 2010.
In fact, there are analysts who predict these fuel prices are a speculative bubble ready to burst.

[Aylmer]

There are also people that said that the world would end in 1987. And 2006. And 2012. And some say that religion is a scam made up by the government to control people and some say that the world IS flat and that all the images are just modified by the UN. There are even some loonies that beleive that Climate Change isn't real and that oil-guzzling buses will save the day. Or even the occasional nutcase that puts his wallet before our future. MY future. THE FUTURE OF THIS WORLD.

You wouldn't be one of the above? Would you?

We HAVE reached peak production and extractable oil should dry up by 2050.

Maybe you should see the world through the eyes of reality:
There is a problem. There is a green revolution.
There will be a solution and you should be happy that our city, as late as it might be to do so,
IS actualy doing something.

There is a challenge and a mess that I didn't bring apon myself but was born into it.
But I step up to the plate and take a stance. I want a better planet and healthier politics.
A green, not greed, -driven economy. And believe it or not, It all starts with transportation.

If I die tommorow, I will know that I did my part. Have you? I support the right things for my environment
and not just for my pockets, for today and not tomorrow. Do you?
Are you so thick that you can't see past your precious coins? Can't you see an opprotunity to act?

There are nine ways to interpret something.
I choose what I think is the right one.
The right one for everyone.

Try looking at this earth more than your wallet.

Carpé Dium





I'm glad I'm letting this all out.

[c_speed3108]

Originally Posted by Franky

Loosen your shorts, man.

On a $2.1 Billion City budget, $5.2 Billion over 25 years (not counting interest ) is $280 Million/year which, mean about a 13% increase carried over those years. Also, in 25 years those rail cars will all be ready to be replaced, a new tunnel will be needed and we can expect another 25 years of high property taxes.

Now please tell me where you get $2.50/litre by 2010.
In fact, there are analysts who predict these fuel prices are a speculative bubble ready to burst.

I think we have to be very careful about cost estimates at this point, namely because we still don't know what we are building.

For instance I saw one estimate fly-by of 40 million to build each underground station. By comparision the Desmarais building at U of O was about 80m. It is pretty safe to assume a station will cost a heck of alot less than that since they are basically the equivalent of building an underground parking garage: Dig hole - cememt walls - stick a lid on it - re-pave road. Add a few stairways.

The other thing is the numbers - besides being padded both just in case and because we really don't know what we are estimating - are also for a full fledged setup. The way the transitway has been built shows that particularly as we move out towards the suburbs there starts to be lots of places to cut a few corners without effecting service. For the transitway this was bus lanes and even just using the 174 out to trim. For a train this could mean things like level crossing at less busy streets. Single tracking particularly between the last and second to last stops. Even single tracking more with passing at stations like the O-train. It is also probable that stations further out will be less elaborate than those more in the middle of the city. Look at the transitway - stations at places like trim are essentially a bus shelter and a bit of lighting and perhaps a trash bin and a few newspaper boxes. Head further in and they have buildings, cement, elevators etc...

One more thing on the numbers - we can also probably assume fairly safely that at least 25-30% of the cost (if now more) would be picked up by other levels of government. Ideally I am sure the city would like 50-60% to be paid by the Ontario and the Feds, but that is probably not realistic.

[Franky]

Originally Posted by AylmerOptimist

Try looking at this earth more than your wallet.

The reality is that transit accounts for a VERY small portion of the transportation GHG pie and an even smaller portion of the whole GHG emissions picture. Spending a huge pile of money on it makes little sense if you claim the environment is important. If you care about the environment, you are against building a tunnel. You want all our buses to be Hybrids ASAP because they reduce emissions by 40% now, not in 8 years. You want to push bus manufacturers and car makers to roll out plug-in hybrids and (for the car market) battery-only cars. Ideally you want to find a public transportation system that people will want to use, not one that they will be forced to use so that modal share increases. Despite the glossy brochures, LRT isn't the answer.

[Aylmer]

Indeed, I think most of global worming is caused by the hot air you post.

Actualy, building a tunnle will save alot. Slater is one of the most polluted streets in Canada because
of all the buses that stall there. Buying hybrid buses will be great, but all the traffic will (does) clog up
Downtown where all the GAS-running cars are.

There's a problem!

Here's a solution;

Build a tunnle with electric emission-free trains running in a coordinated manner
to relieve traffic above ground.



And, PS: In your PAT presentation, you seem to support the idea of a tunnle...