Lister Block | ? | 6 fl | Renovation

[HAMRetrofit]

^ as the building currently stands you might be right.

But if condos are built behind Lister I think that 600sf could be brought down to $249 easy. It would need to be a tower of about 11-15 stories. If built as one project the units would be warrantied. This tower could include the parking for the whole complex. The arcade of Lister could be converted into the condo's amenity spaces (ie convention spaces, workout area) and perhaps some retail if there is any market for it. Ground floor would be a good location for a bank.

The condo project would need to include the entire site. Parking would need to be built above ground in a mixed use parkade with condos above. There is no likely way to excavate underground parking without compromising Lister's structure. Underground parking would be cost prohibitive anyways. An architect with real design skills would need to be hired to pull this off successfully.

[highwater]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

can't say I'm a fan of Bratina's idea to use it to store artifacts....sheesh.
We're already doing that with the old Westinghouse building. Despite the fact, that artists wanted to convert it to lofts.

Agreed, but unfortunately the building has to be used for municipal purposes in order to be eligible for the $7m from the province, so he is scrounging around for other uses for the city. Give him credit for trying at least. In addition to storage, he also suggested a street level museum which is not a bad idea at all.

[HAMRetrofit]

The museum and artifacts idea seems like a good one. As a public building that might be better than the offices. As far as restoration goes I think it would be most sensitive to the building.

[raisethehammer]

true enough...the street level museum would be much better than the — proposed by LIUNA.
and I certainly give him full marks for trying to aid in the restoration of the project.
Too bad the buildings owners don't give a rats hind and simply want to steal public money.

[NuclearNerd]

Originally Posted by realcity

^ that's correct. the Loft/condos are all sold on Rebecca. THe only thing empty is the street level. They're searching for a restaurant, which is unfortunate because it gives the impression that the building is still empty.

My bad. I meant Trinity Landing on King William. That, and the Royale are pretty sour items on Downtown's condo menu.

[HAMRetrofit]

I think you are over evaluating their relevance a little. In the world that continues to turn, no one cares about these projects. They don't indicate anything about Hamilton's potential condo or loft market. They are just a couple of slowly built or poorly executed buildings.

[raisethehammer]

yep...Corelofts, Allenbey Lofts, Annex Lofts, Margaret St Lofts, Stone Lofts, Alanson Lofts, Garfield Lofts, Jarvis Sq condos and a whole pile of great condo buildings in Durand are much better indicators of Hamilton's condo/loft market and potential.
Stinson's project (assuming it's done well) will also be a success. Realtors in the area can tell you that they get phone calls daily from people looking for new/trendy lofts and condos.
Thats why John Mockryke brought Harry here in the first place. As an architect he gets calls everyday as well. He figured it was time to do something about it (since groups like LIUNA, Losani et al sure aren't).

[fastcarsfreedom]

Fair enough RTH--I agree...nonetheless, the Stinson proposal amounts to a tower full of cement boxes--not lofts or work/live spaces. Condo "towers" by their nature are cement boxes--like rental units with better countertops. Not being negative or saying Stinson can't be successful--merely saying I see a disconnect between realtors and architects seeking "cool" spaces and a block of condos that could easily be sitting beside the 401.

Secondly, while I agree it's important not to overstate the relevance of a failed project--or projects--it's also important not to dismiss them out of hand simply because we don't like the implications of their lack of success. The condo market in Hamilton has always been tough--with failed/never built projects probably outnumbering successful ones 2 to 1. There is a reason for that--a real reason that can't simply be laid at the feet of the local development community--which, though you may dislike the fact--has been incredibly successful building suburban communities. There definitely is a market for condos in Hamilton--and it's a market that will grow--but it is a select part of the overall real estate market and we can't conjure up a bigger condo market in the city just because we want it to be true. For many people it's a great way to live--for others, not so much. I lived in a great condo with a great view and couldn't wait to get the heck out.

[raisethehammer]

hmmm, based on the photos I've seen inside 1KW, CandyFactory Lofts and the other loft project (name escapes me right now) he built, I think they are more 'funky' than a suburban highrise. Granted, there are some new condos being built along the 401 these days that are pretty much like the ones in downtown TO. Fine by me if he brings some here.
He's talking about a 7 storey loft building, small compact condos in the Connaught and normal sized condos in the new tower. A nice variety IMO. There's nothing particularly 'unique' about the units in The Garrison over in Durand, yet the building has been full for years with a waiting list. Nice, clean modern units with amenities will do well in Hamilton.
There's nothing particularly unique about the Jarvis Sq condos (other than IV location) yet they are sold out now. People are looking for these in Hamilton.

[HAMRetrofit]

Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom

The condo market in Hamilton has always been tough--with failed/never built projects probably outnumbering successful ones 2 to 1.

Can you please present historical stats that substantiate this claim otherwise it is dismissable and should be discarded from the site.

[HAMRetrofit]

Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom

There definitely is a market for condos in Hamilton--and it's a market that will grow--but it is a select part of the overall real estate market and we can't conjure up a bigger condo market in the city just because we want it to be true. For many people it's a great way to live--for others, not so much. I lived in a great condo with a great view and couldn't wait to get the heck out.

Hamilton is located within an urban region of 6.4 million people. This is expected to grow by 2 million people by 2030. Approximately 150,000 new dwellings are expected to be built in Hamilton. If Hamilton captures just 5% of this in condos that is about 7500 new units or about 1250 stories of condo. That is a fantastic market to be in. No one is conjuring up anything the condo market in Hamilton has amazing potential. It has been recognized by the Globe and Mail, National Post, and major real estate journals so supporters of this market are on solid two feet.

[realcity]

I wouldn't want a Loft anyway. I prefer ROOMS> I toured the Rebecca Lofts and it feels like l'm living in a factory.

The typicacl Loft buyers -- recently graduated 20 somethings -- are leaving Hamilton in huge numbers, it is another reason why Lofts aren't as popular.

What a Lister residential conversion would target are 50s and 60s year olds. The children are gone and they don't want the upkeep work associated with a house. Plus and this is the biggest factor when it comes to downtown residential living and the next boom -- baby boomers will be facing old age soon and the possibility of not holding a drivers license due to health reasons. Even the CAA has been public about this and oddly supported better mass transit to accommodate an aging population that might not be able to drive anymore.

[raisethehammer]

go onto www.mls.ca and do a search in Hamilton West and look at how many condos and lofts come up in the $175,000-$350,000 range.
I think it's safe to say the condo market is just fine when people are paying as much, and more, for condos than they could get a house for.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Quote
Can you please present historical stats that substantiate this claim otherwise it is dismissable and should be discarded from the site

I will remove the statement myself (regardless of the fact that I never presented it as mathematically exact) if it means I can take a few months and remove every other statement throughout this Forum that cannot be backed up by empircal evidence--including statements eluding to particular developers and/or politicians as "stealing" money. You didn't like my argument--that's fine--you're entitled. Your response to it is completely assinine nonetheless. And while everyone else is piling on top of me--you'll notice that I actually said Hamilton had a condo market--and a growing one. I merely stated the fact that the development market--as it exists--is limited. There is a huge portion of the population that is going to favor that style of living--particularly among the aging population. I never made statements to the contrary. Hell, Chateau Royale actually did get finished--and years down the road it will find its way--in the some manner the Piggot/Sunlife conversion did after a difficult start.

I'm starting to believe that there are many posters here who suffer from the same malaise of negativity that they are constantly addressing as the source of suburban efforts to thwart downtown redevelopment and growth. Relax, I wasn't even being negative.

[hmagazine]

To get this back on topic:

a little long but worth the read...

From http://raisethehammer.org/blog.asp?id=988

Lister Block heritage supporters are one step closer to knowing what advice the Ontario Ministry of Culture received on the heritag value of the Lister Block

Advocates have been calling since 2006 for the Ontario Ministry of Culture to release the report prepared by the Ontario Heritage Trust to the public. The report was to assess the building's heritage value.

The report was never made public, and under a compromise between the Ministry, the City of Hamilton, and Laborers International Union of North America (LIUNA), the property owner, the building was not provincially designated as a heritage building.

Toward that end, Kieran Dickson, a Hamilton lawyer and heritage advocate, has been attempting to access government documents related to the Lister Block via Freedom of Information (FOI) requests.

The Ministry argues that the report is exempt under subsection 13(1) of the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act, which exempts:

advice or recommendations of a public servant, any other person employed in the service of an institution or a consultant retained by the institution.

This week, Dickson received a redacted copy of a report titled, "Report of the Provincial Development Facilitator on the Lister Block" and submitted by Alan Wells, the provincially appointed development facilitator, on September 27, 2006.

The redacted section discusses the Heritage Report prepared by the Ontario Heritage Trust:

Heritage value: As noted in the Heritage Report this building can be rehabilitated in a cost effective and efficient manner [rest of paragraph redacted].

Paragraph with redacted text from the Report of the Provincial Development Facilitator on the Lister Block

An annotation reads, "access denied in part to pg. 28 under s.13 as disclosure would reveal advice to government.

Interestingly, the same document is available in its entirety [PDF link] on the City of Hamilton's website.

In the non-redacted version, the same paragraph reads:

Heritage value: As noted in the Heritage Report this building can be rehabilitated in a cost effective and efficient manner – the building has local, provincial and national historic significance and its key attributes will be maintained through this rehabilitation. We believe this approach has support from the heritage community and Ministry of Culture and is consistent with the assessments made by the Ontario Heritage Trust. [emphasis added]

This strongly indicates that the Heritage Report, still unavailable to the public, concluded that the Lister Block has "local, provincial and national historic significance" - and may even have recommended designating the Lister as a provincial heritage building under the amended Ontario Heritage Act.

Why, then, did the Ministry of Culture not designate the Lister Building?

A letter by Premier Dalton McGuinty to LIUNA Vice President Joe Mancinelli, also made public through an FOI request, may provide an answer. It indicates that the Ontario Government wanted to see the issue resolved "with minimal involvement from the minister's office".

In other words, the Ontario Government may have ignored the advice of the Ontario Heritage Trust and decided not to exercise its powers under the Ontario Heritage Act so it could broker a political compromise with people, like Mancinelli, who believe that the province has no business interfereing in municipal affairs.

Of course, there's no way to be certain without reading the Heritage Report, but the Ontario Government continues to deny access to it. As Dickson concluded in a recent email:

According to the Ministry, [the reacted passage] reveals the advice to the Ontario government by the Ontario Heritage Trust. If this is the case, then I think we have learned why the Ministry of Culture is investing so much time and energy in preventing access to the Trust report.

More to come as more information becomes available.

- - - - - - - -

What is interesting is one of the comments following the blogpost:

By Trepidactivist
Posted 4/25/2008 3:43:59 PM

OK so lets say we find out the Heritage Report recommended designating the Lister Block but the government didn't do it. What do we do then?

[HAMRetrofit]

Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom

I will remove the statement myself (regardless of the fact that I never presented it as mathematically exact) if it means I can take a few months and remove every other statement throughout this Forum that cannot be backed up by empircal evidence--including statements eluding to particular developers and/or politicians as "stealing" money. You didn't like my argument--that's fine--you're entitled. Your response to it is completely assinine nonetheless.

Fine don't remove the information. That is your choice. Out of my own interest I would like to see if your information can be substantiated. People conduct business around information and it is unfair practice to claim something as fact that can't be substantiated or can be used to thwart judgment.

[DC83]

In other words, the Ontario Government may have ignored the advice of the Ontario Heritage Trust and decided not to exercise its powers under the Ontario Heritage Act so it could broker a political compromise with people, like Mancinelli, who believe that the province has no business interfereing in municipal affairs.

I don't get it!? If it were desginated as a Provincial Heritage Building, wouldn't that just open up more opportunities for public funding? Wouldn't LIUNA want that?

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by DC83

I don't get it!? If it were desginated as a Provincial Heritage Building, wouldn't that just open up more opportunities for public funding? Wouldn't LIUNA want that?

no, they want demolition.
they'll keep stalling and changing numbers as long as they have to until they finally demo the place.

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

go onto www.mls.ca and do a search in Hamilton West and look at how many condos and lofts come up in the $175,000-$350,000 range.
I think it's safe to say the condo market is just fine when people are paying as much, and more, for condos than they could get a house for.

I'm not so sure. Many of those condos I've seen for sale for a very long time (ie. Core Lofts)

[JT Jacobs]

Originally Posted by Berklon

I'm not so sure. Many of those condos I've seen for sale for a very long time (ie. Core Lofts)

Precisely. The asking price is irrelevant. It is no guage to the market. Selling prices and time on the market are the true indicators of the condo market.

So, while I agree that Hamilton has a healthy potential condo market, I would also say right now that it is weak (poor products, generally) and overpriced (judged by the amount of time these products are on the market and in relation to single family homes).

Again, it is instructive to look at the condo markets in other major cities. As has been pointed out before on this forum, small, decent, comparative condos can be had in Toronto for the same price or cheaper than Hamilton's. As such, where would you buy if you weren't smitten by Hamilton's grit and potential?