221 York Boulevard | ? | 15 fl | Approved

[markbarbera]

I think you overestimae the savviness of the condo buyer. If mediocrity was not acceptable to them, then how can we explain the overwhelming success of the condo market in Toronto, where mediocrity is the norm?

[realcity]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

for the record, quattro formaggio = four cheese.

The condo renderings are generally uncreative, but to be fair, Hamilton certainly does not have a monopoly on this. Architectural mediocrity is practically universal in the condo business.

I agree. it wasn't just the awkward design, the perspective seemed to be on the wonky side. Clearly not the work of skilled illustrators, which always made me think this project was a farse from the start. A real plan would've revealed more then one elevation, site layouts, a website etc

[DC83]

I think another major problem with condo sales in Hamilton is that developpers keep marketting them towards Torontonians. You're not going to get a Torontonian to pick a condo in Hamilton if they're hardcore Torontonians... so they're limiting their market.

Maybe developpers should start marketing units towards Hamiltonians!? I don't know exactly how to go about that, I never studied marketing. Maybe that means a Tim Horton's in the lobby, or plenty of parking spaces, I dunno!?

My point is that in order to attract Hamilton professionals to these units, you need to understand what a Hamiltonian Professional wants/needs as opposed to what Torontonians have now come to expect in condos: yuppy salons & fitness centres that are too pretty to actually work out in! haha

EDIT: Another quick point, what's so wrong with condo/rental mixes? My bldg is set up this way, and it works out great. I have never felt part of a community in and apt bldg before, but I get that sense at Olympia. Sometimes when you get all owners in a bldg, they tend to be snotty and don't interact with ppl. In my bldg, renters/owners inter-mingle at building parties, in the rec ctr, etc.

[realcity]

Thank you HamRetro for saying that about "Redlining". this term is so overused and can mean anything. The naysayers would have you believe that there is an entire redline around Hamilton proper.

Smart business is recognizing undervalued investments. That's why Stinson is here, he recognizes the hidden, unrealized value.

People like to throw around that term 'red line' around to sound smart, but they're hiding behind it. Originally the term referred to unofficial racial segregation in US cities.

[Goldfinger]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

I think you overestimae the savviness of the condo buyer. If mediocrity was not acceptable to them, then how can we explain the overwhelming success of the condo market in Toronto, where mediocrity is the norm?

People don't buy a condo because markbarbera thinks it looks good. People buy lifestyle and affordability. Toronto's condo sucess is built on both of those things.

[JT Jacobs]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

I think you overestimae the savviness of the condo buyer. If mediocrity was not acceptable to them, then how can we explain the overwhelming success of the condo market in Toronto, where mediocrity is the norm?

Possibly. However, projects like the Allenby Lofts and the Core Lofts have been done fairly well, even by Toronto and Vancouver condo standards, which are much higher than Hamilton, quite obviously.

Comparing Toronto's condo market to Hamilton's is really not apposite. It would be like comparing a test score by a Rhodes scholar and a second grader. It's simply not a worthy comparison.

Yes, there are of course shoddy TO condos, but we really don't have any worthy condo projects taller than five stories, with the exception of the Pigott building, perhaps.

Look, I'm not arguing such an elementary point. Look out your window at the Olympia and then scan TO's skyline. I would simply like to see better design in terms of Hamilton's condos. There's a reason why such projects like the Madison have not sold well. They look chintzy; the finishing is shabby; the buildings are locked in a time warp, and so on. And, finally, for what you get, they are expensive.

[fastcarsfreedom]

I'm sorry my head is still spinning over the notion that the vast majority of our manufactured goods are consumed in Canada--and thus we are magically insulated from the U.S. economy. Apparently everything I've ever learned or been taught about the economy was an utter fabrication.

It also amazes me that anyone who presents a dissenting opinion here is automatically a naysayer and/or Hamilton hater--actually nothing could be further from the truth.

[JT Jacobs]

Originally Posted by JT Jacobs

Possibly. However, projects like the Allenby Lofts and the Core Lofts have been done fairly well, even by Toronto and Vancouver condo standards, which are much higher than Hamilton, quite obviously.

Comparing Toronto's condo market to Hamilton's is really not apposite. It would be like comparing a test score by a Rhodes scholar and a second grader. It's simply not a worthy comparison.

Yes, there are of course shoddy TO condos, but we really don't have any worthy condo projects taller than five stories, with the exception of the Pigott building, perhaps.

Look, I'm not arguing such an elementary point. Look out your window at the Olympia and then scan TO's skyline. I would simply like to see better design in terms of Hamilton's condos. There's a reason why such projects like the Madison have not sold well. They look chintzy; the finishing is shabby; the buildings are locked in a time warp, and so on. And, finally, for what you get, they are expensive.

The bottom line for me is that if developers build something of decent quality that represents value, it will surely sell out in Hamilton. I believe that Stinson will prove this to be true. People don't want to feel extorted, after all, when they buy a condo, or anything, for that matter. Hence projects like the Core Lofts sell out instantly.

[DC83]

Originally Posted by JT Jacobs

Look, I'm not arguing such an elementary point. Look out your window at the Olympia and then scan TO's skyline. I would simply like to see better design in terms of Hamilton's condos. There's a reason why such projects like the Madison have not sold well. They look chintzy; the finishing is shabby; the buildings are locked in a time warp, and so on. And, finally, for what you get, they are expensive.

I would, but I'm not up high enough. I look into the ultra-commie Oakland Towers haha I DO have a nice view of the escarpment tho!

I agree, TO condos are FARRRRR better in terms of quality than any recent Hamilton project (ie: Cityplace @ Caroline/Napier behind the new Fed Bldg).

and IMO, Allenby Lofts are the best in Hamilton... probably best I have seen! They're spacious, units are super tall & it's in 'THE' neighbourhood! haha But they're actually more expensive than the Core Lofts!

So rather than argue about it, maybe we should come up w/ a plan to sell condos to Hamiltonians!
We need to a) get them to froget this 'suburban dream' of wanting to live large, have a big house, five cars etc...
b) help them understand that a dense neighbourhood is more healthy than a sprawling suburb in terms of the environment AND phisical health (not to meantion urban health)
c) get rid of this "but it's Hamilton" attitude!

So what do Hamiltonians want in a condo? Let me hear it!!

[JT Jacobs]

I don't know how to post images here (sorry). Here's a link to an image of an approved condo tower in Kelowna called Waterscapes:

forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?p=3180964

Kelowna is a city of just over 100,000, and they are beginning to build condos that one could easily visualize on the Vancouver or Toronto skylines.

My point is that Hamilton should be able to do so much more. Nearly a billion dollars in construction last year. Only Barrie and Hamilton posted construction gains, which is quite revealing about Hamilton's progress (cheap real estate attracts developers at all times but especially during recessionary periods). This year will be mammoth for Hamilton, I'd say. I, and I'm sure many listers here, would love to see these construction dollars be spent on quality projects, instead of more eyesores that really do nothing for the city.

By the way, the Chicago Staybridge image that RePinion posted makes all the points I verbosely try to better: Hamilton typically chooses inferior projects. However, I don't believe that this trend will continue for much longer. But we must demand better.

What do I want to see? I'd like to see buildings like 220 Dundurn ST S be converted into lofts. A smart developer could make a killing in Hamilton. The real estate could be acquired cheaply. There should be a hundred Allenby Lofts in Hamilton instead of this isolated example of quality. Quality should be the rule not the celebrated exception.

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom

I'm sorry my head is still spinning over the notion that the vast majority of our manufactured goods are consumed in Canada--and thus we are magically insulated from the U.S. economy. Apparently everything I've ever learned or been taught about the economy was an utter fabrication.

It also amazes me that anyone who presents a dissenting opinion here is automatically a naysayer and/or Hamilton hater--actually nothing could be further from the truth.

no, only people who take a project that was never serious in the first place and try to make it the death knell of the entire city.

[JT Jacobs]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

no, only people who take a project that was never serious in the first place and try to make it the death knell of the entire city.

That the project was never seriously under consideration all the more exemplifies the points above, not to mention the stuff that does get built. Again, this isn't to indulge in negativity; it is only to encourage the city of Hamilton to aspire to greatness.

[raisethehammer]

my point is that anyone in the know has been waiting for months for the loan money to be yanked from this and redirected to a viable one.
I think we'll see that now.
And like an earlier poster noted...the majority of loans are being used in projects as we speak.
downtown has been turning the corner the past few years and is continuing now. that much is very simple and plain to see.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Every market is different--has different demographics, different incomes, etc. Therefore, while the condo market may be hot in Kelowna--it is a moot point. I believe their licence plates out there now read "The Best Place On Earth"--nuff said.

The Staybridge in Chicago looks fantastic--great design. Ask yourself what the average rate that hotel will command in that market and then rethink the comparison to the Staybridge in Hamilton. I can assure you that the Sheraton in Chicago kicks the ass of the Sheraton in Hamilton also...and there's a reason for it. Aspiring to greatness is what Hamilton should be doing--but being unrealistic only sets the city (and you) up for perennial disappointment.

The failure of the York condos to go forward or the decision to not proceed (at this time) on the Federal Building is not the death knell at all...I for one never made any assertion that it was. CoreLofts is a perfect example of project that was a huge sucess--heck, even Chateau Royale got built. Nonetheless, blaming the state of the market downtown on a roving band of shady developers is ignoring reality.

As an aside to a previous post--it seems another Canadian bank is eager to get into the retail banking business in the U.S.--Scotiabank is now said to be in the bidding for National City--a Top 10 U.S. bank in terms of deposits with the majority of it's branches in the midwest and it's HQ in Cleveland.

[Goldfinger]

Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom

Every market is different--has different demographics, different incomes, etc. Therefore, while the condo market may be hot in Kelowna--it is a moot point. I believe their licence plates out there now read "The Best Place On Earth"--nuff said.

The Staybridge in Chicago looks fantastic--great design. Ask yourself what the average rate that hotel will command in that market and then rethink the comparison to the Staybridge in Hamilton. I can assure you that the Sheraton in Chicago kicks the ass of the Sheraton in Hamilton also...and there's a reason for it. Aspiring to greatness is what Hamilton should be doing--but being unrealistic only sets the city (and you) up for perennial disappointment.

The failure of the York condos to go forward or the decision to not proceed (at this time) on the Federal Building is not the death knell at all...I for one never made any assertion that it was. CoreLofts is a perfect example of project that was a huge sucess--heck, even Chateau Royale got built. Nonetheless, blaming the state of the market downtown on a roving band of shady developers is ignoring reality.

This is a good point. What the city incentives have done is essentially attracted inexperienced people who don't know what the're doing.

The day I see Daniels, Tridel or Menkes put up a project downtown, then I will say we have turned a corner.

[RePinion]

Laziness, cheapness - and arrogance! It's an insult to buyers to presume that they will settle for the crap that gets hawked in this city by developers.

We do need to insist upon higher standards. It would be nice if Hamilton developments could outdo the architectural standards of condo projects in Toronto. This really wouldn't be hard to do.

[RePinion]

Originally Posted by Goldfinger

This is a good point. What the city incentives have done is essentially attracted inexperienced people who don't know what the're doing.

The day I see Daniels, Tridel or Menkes put up a project downtown, then I will say we have turned a corner.

I agree with both of these points.

[HAMRetrofit]

Originally Posted by Goldfinger

This is a good point. What the city incentives have done is essentially attracted inexperienced people who don't know what the're doing.

The day I see Daniels, Tridel or Menkes put up a project downtown, then I will say we have turned a corner.

I partly agree with you on this. The big fish eat the little ones in real estate markets and development. The small timers that are nibbling on the bate right now will get the ball rolling. They are there to eventually bate the higher predators. We need a little fish to build something awesome at first to set the bar extremely high.

[realcity]

Tridel and Menkes -- yes. Daniels yeah right.... another version of Desantis.

[raisethehammer]

those 3 TO companies have the market cornered on mediocrity. North York might as well be the TO waterfront these days....can't tell the difference.