221 York Boulevard | ? | 15 fl | Approved

[HAMRetrofit]

Originally Posted by Goldfinger

Face the facts, national developers have written Hamilton off long ago and have no interest in losing their shirts here.

Wrong.

The potential of profit is to great too dismiss anymore. A major segment of first time buyers and aging baby boomers are buying into the condo market. This macro trend will occur in all major Canadian Centers. Once again Hamilton is non specific as a market impediment. Second to this provincial policy has changed and is geared towrds infill and urban development.

Hamilton is feeling a surge of GTA new home buyers right now. This is the tail wind of speculators feeding off the last remains of non-greenbelt land. This will be a short surge as construction markets adjust to new policy and construction trends.

[DC83]

^^ I agree 100%, Retro. Years ago, Goldfinger's comments may have been true however since moving downtown, I have seen a great surge in 'legit' residents living down here. Infact, for the 1st time in years my building has no empty units and are actually selling them faster than they ever could!

So sorry, Goldfinger's comments (from my point of view anyway) are incorrect... esp relating to my building!

[fastcarsfreedom]

The GTA influx is absolutely a fact of life, which is why you are seeing so much hated "sprawl" pop up. Those willing to come into the city and live the urban lifestyle will be a factor--but not nearly the factor that those seeking relatively inexpensive and accessible suburban homes will be. There is plenty of money to finance those projects, because their success is all but guaranteed.

Yes, redlining exists, to deny this is to bury your head in the sand a little deeper.

As for the situation in the U.S.--I think it's important to point out that Canada's economic numbers are heavily skewed by the resource sector. Considering we all live in Ontario--which functions is a nearly seemless economic unit with Ohio, Indiana, Michigan and Illinois--it might be wise to have a long hard look at the current state of the manufacturing sector--which Ontario's economy is built upon. You can choose to believe that the current economic malaise will be isolated to the U.S. (all the easier to blame Bush and U.S. foreign policy and neo-Conservatives)--but doing so is merely raising a glass of Kool-Aid and chugging back. Open your eyes.

[HAMRetrofit]

Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom

Those willing to come into the city and live the urban lifestyle will be a factor--but not nearly the factor that those seeking relatively inexpensive and accessible suburban homes will be. There is plenty of money to finance those projects, because their success is all but guaranteed.

Sorry. There is plenty of money to finance those projects. There is limited land in Central Ontario. Look at the trends in urban projects compared to suburban in the GTA. The clear trend is condos and infill up and suburban down. Toronto's hinterland cities like Kitchener, Hamilton, and Barrie are the benefactors of intaking this suburban growth. Take a look at the numbers. Hamilton's land supply and suburban growth will be limited. It is only a matter of time before land supply is used up.

Redlining is illegal, and it is not a factor in financing downtown Hamilton projects. In Canada, redlining is an urban myths that gets thrown around when deadbeat developers cry fowl. It is the economic viability of these projects based on the developer's business plans and access to financing that holds up the downtown projects. If Concord arrived in Hamilton do you think anyone would blink an eye over financing them. Not likely.

[HAMRetrofit]

Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom

As for the situation in the U.S.--I think it's important to point out that Canada's economic numbers are heavily skewed by the resource sector. Considering we all live in Ontario--which functions is a nearly seemless economic unit with Ohio, Indiana, Michigan and Illinois--it might be wise to have a long hard look at the current state of the manufacturing sector--which Ontario's economy is built upon. You can choose to believe that the current economic malaise will be isolated to the U.S. (all the easier to blame Bush and U.S. foreign policy and neo-Conservatives)--but doing so is merely raising a glass of Kool-Aid and chugging back. Open your eyes.

Our manufacturing may be joined at the hip to the US, but our banking is not. Ontario's manufacturers will still be able to take insured loans from Canadian banks. These threats to manufacturing will have implications for the higher ups and sectors that rely primarily on export to the US. We are about 90% insulated from these problems as long as local consumption remains strong.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Have a look at CIBC and BMO's financials thanks to their investment in the subprime lending business. TD, RBC and BMO all have major retail banking operations in the U.S. This whole debate on development and financing is an interesting one--because all I hear is that the developers that are here are deadbeats--and that if legitimate developers arrived things would be different--fair enough, so where are these 'legitimate' developers who are beating down the door to do these projects? Secondly, redlining is unto itself illegal--however, location is factored as part of the business plan of any projects--and that goes into the equation as far as risk is concerned with the lender. Hence, if Stinson fails in Hamilton and decides he wants to build Sapphire in Brantford, do you think location would be a factor in risk assessment--despite the fact that downtown Brantford can't legally be "redlined"? I am actually starting to believe that there are people living in a complete and utter fantasy world here--there are projects (such as CoreLofts) that have been amazingly successful--and there will be more to come--given time, market conditions/growth and developer interest.

We are not even close to running out of land--not even if you take McGuinty and Companys Greenbelt "plan" into account.

Are you suggesting the majority of manufactured goods are consumed locally and regionally? I don't even know what to do with that statement except to assume it's a typo.

[HAMRetrofit]

TYPO. Regionally or in the Canadian market, thus are substantially insulated from US windfalls.

[Goldfinger]

OK,

Here is RE finance 101 for you guys.

Banks and most lenders don't lend out their own funds. They are spread lenders, i.e. they borrow from others and re-lend and charge a small premium.

Construction finance has been primarily funded by the CMBS market, it allows developers access to heavily levered financing with very little equity requirements, i.e 75-85% typically. It's important to realize that there is no border for CMBS market. They are underwritten by investment banks and sold like shares to investors all over the world. As long as there are investors, the money keeps flowing and lenders can underwrite more loans.

The CMBS pool contracts when investors get spooked. So even though the Canadian RE market is healthy, it doesn't really matter if there is no money available. There is less money available to finance construction projects and renew mortgages. To cope with the shortage, lenders do two things, 1. increase the equity requirements of developers/owners or 2. only cherry pick which projects you want and dump the rest. In either cases, the spreads are increased signifcantly from the 10 yr. So a guy looking for a construction loan would have paid a 2 point spread last year, is now paying a 4-6 point spread.

[HAMRetrofit]

Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom

We are not even close to running out of land--not even if you take McGuinty and Companys Greenbelt "plan" into account.

Sorry. I don't share your optimism regarding this. I guess we are entitled to our own pipe dreams.

[Goldfinger]

Originally Posted by HAMRetrofit

Has he received funds from the city. No.

Regarding the credit crises urban construction markets have remained stable

The housing crisis has lowered construction material costs a boon to contractors north of the border. Otherwise there will be some slowdown in 2008 but nothing like the US.

http://www.jeffreyteam.com/blog/misc...l-real-estate/

Well, how can you dispute an article written by 2 Century 21 Residential Agents.

BTW their brokerage has been convicted the RECO with using unlicenced sales people.

http://www.reco.on.ca/SearchRegistra...Company&K=9554

[JT Jacobs]

Originally Posted by RePinion

I'm finally starting to understand why BCTed/Goldfinger seems to take pleasure in the failures of this city. There's just too much constant disappointment that one starts to convert that disappointment into hostility. No one does anything here! Plans are announced, cheesy renderings are drawn up, and sweetheart loans are negotiated with the city, but nothing ever gets done. Sometimes it seems like everything in this city is either a scam or a pipedream. It's too frustrating for words.

Sometimes I don't know whether to commend or to pity the Hamilton boosters who remain indefatigably optimistic ...

Agreed: the renderings for these condo projects are quattro formaggio (pure cheese). Do these people not ever leave the 905 area code to get a look at real design in real cities?

[Goldfinger]

Originally Posted by RePinion

I'm finally starting to understand why BCTed/Goldfinger seems to take pleasure in the failures of this city. There's just too much constant disappointment that one starts to convert that disappointment into hostility. No one does anything here! Plans are announced, cheesy renderings are drawn up, and sweetheart loans are negotiated with the city, but nothing ever gets done. Sometimes it seems like everything in this city is either a scam or a pipedream. It's too frustrating for words.

Sometimes I don't know whether to commend or to pity the Hamilton boosters who remain indefatigably optimistic ...

I wouldn't say that I take pleasure in the failures, I'm just being a realist. The city has had downtown renewal on the front burner since '96 when they started offering DC and rezoning refunds for developers. We have seen some progress, but overall, i think downtown has gone even further downhill in the 12 years since. I have been concerned with the calibre of alot of the projects, what bothers me most is that I don't see truly net new buildings go up except for affordable housing. The only real growth I see there is poverty.

[HAMRetrofit]

I think you are intentionally slandering the downtown to push your own agenda. The city has not invested nearly enough of what it needs too. Rapid transit is needed at a minimum. Funding to the BIAs needs to increase significantly. Social services need to be dispersed more evenly through the city including into the suburbs. Jackson Square and the Eaton's Center need a complete overhaul with housing. The one ways need to go. More dedicated street parking and parkades are needed. Control of retail expansion into the suburbs needs to occur. Downtown renewal is a major project that has not started in a serious way yet.

You state the city started downtown renewal in 1996. I think this is an utter and complete falsity. The city has not even began doing the hard things that need to happen to turn around the downtown. They have thrown a few dollars at it through the downtown loans project, but that is it.

To recast your statement, policies that artificially impeded downtown Hamilton redevelopment started slowing down at little in 1996.

[HAMRetrofit]

I am sick of hearing this failure of downtown propaganda. There is no failure. Nothing significant has been done to turn things around.

A city is not going to change course overnight, especially when nothing is being done about it.

[RePinion]

Originally Posted by JT Jacobs

Agreed: the renderings for these condo projects are quattro formaggio (pure cheese). Do these people not ever leave the 905 area code to get a look at real design in real cities?

Clearly not. We're treated by developers as though we're just another centre of sprawl. They simply do not think of Hamilton as a properly urban market deserving of properly urban architecture.

For instance, here is the rendering for a Staybridge Suites in Chicago:



And now here is the rendering for the Staybridge Suites in Hamilton (built by our own Darko Vranich, saviour of the city!):



Just rubbish. We certainly don't merit the scale of the Chicago project, but we do deserve progressively-minded architecture.

[markbarbera]

Boy there has been a lot of needless wringing of hands over these city loan cancellations, some in despair and some in glee. But lets try to keep some perspective on this.

Two of these projects were from the 2004 program, and the other three were from the 2006 program. There were some 19 loans that the city approved in those years under the downtown residential loan program. Of these, the city has cancelled five. Two were cancelled because the properties were either sold or in the process of being sold. Resale automatically cancells the city loan to avoid artificial inflation of property values for speculative purposes.

It is important to note that the three remaining properties' development plans have not been abandoned. Rather, the owners indicated to the city that they were not shovel-ready by the December 31, 2007 deadline, thereby missing a loan condition, which led to their cancellation. All three indicated their desire to reapply once they were in a position to proceed with their projects.

Also important to note is that, of the 19 loans, 14 have met the conditions. That means there are 14 downtown development/redevelopment projects that benefitted from this program and have been completed or are currently under construction.

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

Boy there has been a lot of needless wringing of hands over these city loan cancellations, some in despair and some in glee. But lets try to keep some perspective on this.

Two of these projects were from the 2004 program, and the other three were from the 2006 program. There were some 19 loans that the city approved in those years under the downtown residential loan program. Of these, the city has cancelled five. Two were cancelled because the properties were either sold or in the process of being sold. Resale automatically cancells the city loan to avoid artificial inflation of property values for speculative purposes.

It is important to note that the three remaining properties' development plans have not been abandoned. Rather, the owners indicated to the city that they were not shovel-ready by the December 31, 2007 deadline, thefoby missing a loan condition, which led to their cancellation. All three indicated their desire to reapply once they were in a position to proceed with their projects.

Also important to note is that, of the 19 loans, 14 have met the conditions. That means there are 14 downtown development/redevelopment projects that benefitted from this program and have been completed or are currently under construction.

Shhh, don't tell us that. The Hamilton haters want to hijack the forum.

[markbarbera]

Originally Posted by JT Jacobs

Agreed: the renderings for these condo projects are quattro formaggio (pure cheese).

for the record, quattro formaggio = four cheese.

The condo renderings are generally uncreative, but to be fair, Hamilton certainly does not have a monopoly on this. Architectural mediocrity is practically universal in the condo business.

[RePinion]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

for the record, quattro formaggio = four cheese.

The condo renderings are generally uncreative, but to be fair, Hamilton certainly does not have a monopoly on this. Architectural mediocrity is practically universal in the condo business.

I would tend to agree but there are obviously varying levels of mediocrity. In fact, it might be more accurate to say that the bulk of condo projects proposed for Hamilton actually slips below the mediocrity threshold into sheer ugliness.

There certainly are some attractive condos out there. The form itself is not unamenable to high quality design. If you read the New York Times you'll see every sunday a number of very high quality condo projects being advertised in the magazine section (usually designed by very well regarded firms). Of course, these are consistently priced above $2m, so go figure ...

As an aside, I don't think JT Jacobs's translation was intended to be a literal one ...

[JT Jacobs]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

for the record, quattro formaggio = four cheese.

The condo renderings are generally uncreative, but to be fair, Hamilton certainly does not have a monopoly on this. Architectural mediocrity is practically universal in the condo business.

Re the cheese thing: I know, it wasn't a literal translation (it's also a good pizza!).

Okay, first, there's nothing anti-Hamilton or Hamilton-hating about my criticism of these condo projects (recall, criticism is not a pejorative term); those who love their city must critique it in order for that city to be its best.

Next, it's a commonplace observation to say that there's an abundance of bad architecture the world over--but so what? Does that mean we just sigh and indulge it, or do we continue to demand better? I for one will always demand better. It's laziness and cheapness that informs these bad designs. But the condo buyer, even in Hamilton, is far too savvy to buy this crap.