Jackson Square

[fastcarsfreedom]

As we've discussed TO DEATH here, Jackson Square doesn't fit the parameters of what most people would consider a "deal mall"--it is overbuilt, there are certainly parts of it that are dead--but it continues to have great daily foot traffic, non-traditional anchors such as the market and a captive population of office workers from M-F. The City Centre certainly falls much closer in line with what most would consider a dead/failed mall. Leasable space in JS needs to be reduced for sure, just as new retailers need to be attracted--and yes, full-time residential would be ideal...but dead?

[HAMRetrofit]

Sorry it is not dead, but in a continuous decline. I think the faster that residential is added to the mix and excess space is eliminated the better the chance it will recover. My main point is that the JS redevelopment should be lead by residential development and not reconfiguring like the approach that Lime Ridge used. I don't even think that a reconfiguring approach like Toronto's Eaton center would work in Hamilton. The problems of JS are unique to the city's core lead by excess retail space and not enough residential population living there with disposable income. Redeveloping JS as a housing project would be one of the fastest ways to reverse these problems.

The foot traffic of the mall is lead partly because of the immense scale of the center block. JS cuts off access for pedestrians, so there is simply no other convenient route other than through. The roof garden is an awful space. The other draws are the Library, Market, and Food Court.

I think that retail in the EC will have some chance to recover once some of JS's excess space is removed.

Since Hamilton owns JS they really have a good chance of driving all this change at a profit.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Toronto Eaton Centre shouldn't even part of the debate--it is a unique anomoly--it's success as a downtown urban centre has been unique in North America.

I think we can also agree that there needs to be residential development on the 'super-block'--there is plenty of space to do something meaningful--as you may know, the original Civic Square plan called for residential towers on the site of Copps. Where we differ is on the method of reconfiguration of the retail area--there certainly needs to be less--and as has been said, attracting a few, larger-format retailers would clearly address much of the excess capacity. The success of Honest Lawyer also proves there is a market in that zone for entertainment/dining...another potential area for growth. From a retail standpoint the City Centre is awkward, isolated and unanchored--I say City Centre goes on the woodpile long before JS.

[hamiltonguy]

Hamilton does NOT own Jackson Square.

However I think people are on the right track re:residential development.

A 10 story tower between the library and Copps, and a conversion of the two smaller office towers to residential with Rooftop level retail (an Indigo and a small Winners maybe) would work.

I'd also but a small grocery store (a Sobey's express maybe?) in the bottom of the 10 story tower, with the Fitness place moving up to rooftop level.

I also think the corner of James and York needs a 10 story, which will take up some of the retail and office space in City Centre. The Upper Level Offices will become the permanent home of the city's public service operations (Business Service, Council Business, and Management will remain at City Hall).

[IronWarrior]

I heard the Family Fitness has been bought out by GoodLife Fitness....now I know why they have been doing renovations over the last year or so...they also own the space next to the library I beleive..its used to be Pete and Martys back in the early 90's..I wonder whats going to be done with that..? its been empty for years!

[IronWarrior]

Speaking of Tim Hortons...lol you should have seen the line up today!lol...whats wrong with these people! I agree its gross! PAMS is much much better! waiting 20 minutes for a coffee!! haha they must put crack in it or something....

[HAMRetrofit]

Its roll up the rim time and people are addicted to it like crack. In Toronto, several locations were lined up out the door to get coffees today.

[raisethehammer]

if we're talking about the Horton's in JS, it's ALWAYS lined up like that. crazy.
Yea, PAM's is much better.
Has anyone been to the Deco Deli a few doors up from Hortons? It always has a good crowd in it.

[thistleclub]

Aside from most of the practical observations made in the posts above, one basic aesthetic move Yale should really make (one they probably should have made long ago) is creating brandable entranceways. King and James is the mall's most characteristic face and yet it looks like a subway entrance, Maybe a two- or three-storey glass structure that could feature interior greenery and seasonal banners or programmable LED lighting, synched with the curtain wall at 100 King West -- something that suggests that this is a retail operation with its house in order. Ideally, relocate that intersection's eastern rooftop stairs as well, which would probably reduce the colourful loitering. Add a revolving door or two in the name of climate control and to create the impression that this is a place in motion.

[Goldfinger]

Originally Posted by hamiltonguy

Hamilton does NOT own Jackson Square.

However I think people are on the right track re:residential development.

A 10 story tower between the library and Copps, and a conversion of the two smaller office towers to residential with Rooftop level retail (an Indigo and a small Winners maybe) would work.

I'd also but a small grocery store (a Sobey's express maybe?) in the bottom of the 10 story tower, with the Fitness place moving up to rooftop level.

I also think the corner of James and York needs a 10 story, which will take up some of the retail and office space in City Centre. The Upper Level Offices will become the permanent home of the city's public service operations (Business Service, Council Business, and Management will remain at City Hall).

Hamilton owns the land JS is built on, I belive its on a 99Yr lease to yale.

[RePinion]

Originally Posted by thistleclub

Aside from most of the practical observations made in the posts above, one basic aesthetic move Yale should really make (one they probably should have made long ago) is creating brandable entranceways. King and James is the mall's most characteristic face and yet it looks like a subway entrance, Maybe a two- or three-storey glass structure that could feature interior greenery and seasonal banners or programmable LED lighting, synched with the curtain wall at 100 King West -- something that suggests that this is a retail operation with its house in order. Ideally, relocate that intersection's eastern rooftop stairs as well, which would probably reduce the colourful loitering. Add a revolving door or two in the name of climate control and to create the impression that this is a place in motion.

This is a fabulous idea. Other 1970s shopping centres have been successfully opened up with retrofitted glass curtain walls. And revolving doors definitely smack of big city urbanity. Such things would do wonders both for the mall and King/James in general. I question whether Yale would ever be willing to put up this sort of money, though.

It would be ideal if Yale would divest itself of JS to another more dynamic property holder (one perhaps actually in the shopping centre business). Regretably, I cannot see them doing this unless they also decided to pull out of the Hamilton office market as well, as JS is the linchpin between all their other downtown properties ...

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by Goldfinger

Hamilton owns the land JS is built on, I belive its on a 99Yr lease to yale.

ah heck, thats not bad.
when was it built?? 1960's? we've only got to wait another 50 years till the lease ends and then we can get some action on fixing it up. Odds are it'll take that long anyhow.

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by RePinion

This is a fabulous idea. Other 1970s shopping centres have been successfully opened up with retrofitted glass curtain walls. And revolving doors definitely smack of big city urbanity. Such things would do wonders both for the mall and King/James in general. I question whether Yale would ever be willing to put up this sort of money, though.

It would be ideal if Yale would divest itself of JS to another more dynamic property holder (one perhaps actually in the shopping centre business). Regretably, I cannot see them doing this unless they also decided to pull out of the Hamilton office market as well, as JS is the linchpin between all their other downtown properties ...

funny story about revolving doors.
I returned from New York recently, where every single building has revolving doors and they routinely lock the 'regular' doors and force people to use the revolving doors due to better flow of people and less heat loss by not having huge doors opened to the elements all the time...I'm assuming it's a money saver in energy costs for the buildings.

So, I come back to Hamilton and am leaving JS one day through Stelco Tower...I must have still been in the NYC mode and walked towards the revolving door....smashed my face on the friggin thing since it was locked. Went and used the regular doors and was thinking to myself "this is what you get when you live in a city with no regard for energy issues and doesn't have enough people walking around to require any human 'traffic flow'. How fitting that I stepped out on the roaring freeway on King Street...now there's traffic flow - Hamilton style! Energy concerns?? Bah! Not in the good old Hammer!

[HAMRetrofit]

Revolving doors are often used for security measures and not typically anything else. The flow is actually better with standard door types. A standard door with vestibule is better from an energy conservation perspective. Revolving doors are typically used on banks etc.

[raisethehammer]

are you sure??

http://sustainability.mit.edu/Revolv..._.28267_BTU.29

[fastcarsfreedom]

Having once worked in the presence of revolving doors, I can attest to the fact that people are essentially attracted to them likes moths to flames--that is, people are attracted to them, but for whatever reason there is a portion of the population without the accuity or coordination to use them. I remember the old revolvers at Eaton's--they didn't have the fail safe, so if you stopped in your tracks you got hammered in the back of the head...no give at all. The newer versions all have a "breakaway" mode--I would bet the Security at Stelco Tower got sick of getting up to reset the doors--hence the reason they are locked.

Then there are the monstrous versions like they have at airports to accomodate wheeled baggage--or the ones I most fondly remember which were at the "air supported" Pontiac Silverdome--they were few and far between so as to maintain the positive pressure in the stadium--and their use was accompanied by an absolute gale of wind rushing out of the building.

And yes, JS started out life in the 70s--Phase I opened in '72, Phase II around '76 or so, and Phase IV I believe was '83 or '84.

[HAMRetrofit]

Yes I am certain that a vestibule with standard doors is just as energy efficient as one revolving door.

A vestibule with revolving doors on the inside and outside would be more efficient though than a standard one. There are better ways to make a building more efficient than this though.

The main reason for installing rotating doors is security and theft reduction though.

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom

Having once worked in the presence of revolving doors, I can attest to the fact that people are essentially attracted to them likes moths to flames--that is, people are attracted to them, but for whatever reason there is a portion of the population without the accuity or coordination to use them. I remember the old revolvers at Eaton's--they didn't have the fail safe, so if you stopped in your tracks you got hammered in the back of the head...no give at all. The newer versions all have a "breakaway" mode--I would bet the Security at Stelco Tower got sick of getting up to reset the doors--hence the reason they are locked.

Then there are the monstrous versions like they have at airports to accomodate wheeled baggage--or the ones I most fondly remember which were at the "air supported" Pontiac Silverdome--they were few and far between so as to maintain the positive pressure in the stadium--and their use was accompanied by an absolute gale of wind rushing out of the building.

And yes, JS started out life in the 70s--Phase I opened in '72, Phase II around '76 or so, and Phase IV I believe was '83 or '84.

haha...that's too funny. in NYC every building has them and many buildings only have them. apartments, offices, condos, retail stores etc..... if they have regular doors they are hidden out of view somewhere.
yea, those stadium ones are something else. you feel like you're getting sucked apart in them.
I'm sure in NYC the cost savings are absolutely tremendous by having revolving doors. There is ALWAYS a non-stop flow of people, so if they had normal doors, odds are the doors would be open all day long. talk about losing interior heat.
I'd love to see the cost comparisons in NYC. The website I attached explains the science, which makes sense even in a normal situation. In New York they are basically eliminating the need to have their doors propped open from 8-5 every day of the week and instead they always have that constant seal in place on the inside of the revolving doors.
I should have asked more questions when I was there, but didn't. Only asked enough to find out why every single building has them and why they lock the normal doors - energy savings and traffic flow...and I'm sure in the retail establishments, theft would be a good reason too. I was chatting with the folks at my condo/hotel so retail theft wasn't an issue for them.

[thistleclub]

My presumption about the energy efficiency of revolving doors was just that. I could well be wrong, though the forced heat in that particular vestibule might change the equation, as might the frequent practice of people holding doors open -- anyone ever catch a chill while queuing for coffee at PAMs?

The efficiency of people moving through the doors is also up for debate. I wouldn't eliminate all of them -- universal access is important, for one thing. And I'll admit that there may be some side-effects of dubious practicality. For example: a pair of them at centre might limit the vestibule's usefulness as a bus shelter, which (sympathies to weather-averse transiteers) it is not. A crowd of people clogging your path is not the greatest incentive to enter.

King and James is certainly the mall's main entrance, though (aside from modest signage) the aesthetics suggest otherwise. I was thinking of something like a more humane take on the Capilano Mall, letting abundant sunlight spill deep into into the bunker -- you could run it back as far as the fork in the corridor -- and providing greater continuity between the facades of 1 James North and 100 King West.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Interior light would work wonders. For reference you can read up on the $500million GM spent revamping Renaissance Center in Detroit--the main goal of which was to shed some light "literally" into the dizzying and brutalist interior John Portman designed in the 70s. In the main photo accompanying the article you can see the large glass "Wintergarden" which faces south and which was cut deeply into the building so as to provide light throughout the interior.