The future of Ottawa's Transit

[Dado]

Originally Posted by d_jeffrey

The feds only put 66M$ towards the Evergreen Line in Vancouver.

I really think it's time to clarify who's responsible for public transit, it's a real joke.

I'm curious... who would you have being responsible for public transit? The real problem is a financing issue. The municipal level doesn't have the funding necessary to carry out its responsibilities. Personally, I hate seeing federal and provincial funding announcements for transit (and freeways) because each one is essentially political pork and it becomes a contest between cities to see who can get more of it. Far better would be to set up some funding system based on an agreed formula so that municipalities could plan accordingly. Something like a transfer of all gas and sales taxes collected within a municipality would go to that municipality (and that applies to rural areas too).

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by Dado

I'm curious... who would you have being responsible for public transit? The real problem is a financing issue. The municipal level doesn't have the funding necessary to carry out its responsibilities. Personally, I hate seeing federal and provincial funding announcements for transit (and freeways) because each one is essentially political pork and it becomes a contest between cities to see who can get more of it. Far better would be to set up some funding system based on an agreed formula so that municipalities could plan accordingly. Something like a transfer of all gas and sales taxes collected within a municipality would go to that municipality (and that applies to rural areas too).

If someone is responsible for public transit, that organization is responsible for any issues resulting for it. If we make cities responsible for transit, they will need to have all the funds transferred to this group. The federal governement, should not have to "transfer" money if it's not under its juridiction, it's just plain bad policy making. Organizations responsible for a project should also be responsible of the funding.

MetroLinx seems to be a start at this, they get the funding directly from the province, and they will probably take care of the TTC real soon, it has been hinted that way. If the federal government takes and distributes the money to the province afterwards, why did it take it in the first place? The federal governement shouldn't have anything to do with public transit.

Cities seem all happy about "we are getting federal funding, yeah!", while they should shout about juridiction overlap.

[c_speed3108]

Originally Posted by ikerrin

I have to confess that I would be happier if we had new funding for a commuter rail network, and an above ground, below ground subway from the Via Station to Lebreton and another line under Bank street.

There could be bus connections at those stations and at Heron with commuter rail along the existing rail lines out to Smiths Falls/Perth, Arnprior, and Alexandria and over the POW bridge to Wakefield. You could also run LRT along Rideau and Baseline. That would be adding new capacity and taking transit where it doesn't already exist.

I am not against the idea of commuter rail, but they City of Ottawa needs to focus on transit within the boundaries of the City of Ottawa first and foremost.

What these outlying communities should be setting up right now is not commuter rail but a good commuter bus service in the manner that Clarence-Rockland has. This will also serve as a test to see just how much support there is and help build ridership.


The key thing to remember with rail (any kind) is that its best purpose is to move huge numbers of people. In other words its should be running on the heaviest routes on the system. This is why based on the current released/leaked? plan city staff has nailed it. The central portion of the transitway is Ottawa's heaviest route. This is where the old plans with Carling, Baseline, Montreal roads were wrong. They are busy enough routes but certainly not the heaviest.

Even things like the 95 heading out across the greenbelt is less busy than the more central area.

Buses on the other hand have several great properties for moving smaller quantities of people, but in locations where more flexibility is required. They can get down city streets, wind through suburbs, go around stalled vehicles.


What has been arrived at is using the two in the right ways to get the most bang out of each. The old plan used rail in the worst way, this new plan uses it in the best way



Now I'm to grab a shovel and start digging...what street do we want the tunnel under Albert or Queen?

[eemy]

Originally Posted by c_speed3108

Now I'm to grab a shovel and start digging...what street do we want the tunnel under Albert or Queen?

That's how my sisters and I got a swimming pool when we were kids. I guess once there was a hole in the ground, my parents decided to go ahead and finish the job.

[citizen j]

Originally Posted by ikerrin

I don't know that transit in the city is all that broke. This plan is really just increasing capacity along existing routes. We are converting buses to rail lines (with the exception of an extension of the O-Train a little further).

Remember, most of this plan is just geared to making it a little easier for suburbanites to get into the downtown and out again. As a downtown resident who bikes 3 seasons of the year and has a short bus ride to work in winter, I just don't see what is in this for me?

I am excited about the 4 station subway that apparently takes 7 years to build (I guess they are building it with spoons), but I would far rather have an opportunity to take a train out to Arnprior for a day of biking in return for people from Arnprior having a train into the city for work. Why should I be excited about more buseway capacity to nowheresville, Orleans?

So, you'd like to see train service to Arnprior -- a town of under 10 000 that lies outside the city limits -- instead of to Orleans, which has more than 10 times the population and is the suburb with the highest rate of transit ridership into downtown on any given weekday? Okay. How does a train to Orleans (or Kanata, or Barr Haven, etc.) benefit inside-the-Greenbelt Ottawans? If nothing else, it keeps that many cars off streets in the central city and means fewer parking lots. It also helps maintain the vitality of the CBD and mitigates employment migration away from the core.

But I agree with the point you're trying to make -- you can't ONLY address the needs of suburban weekday commuters and ignore the issue of intraurban transit inside the Greenbelt. Carling Avenue, Rideau St./Montreal Road, Bank Street, Elgin/Main/Smyth, Bronson, Somerset/Wellington/Richmond, Baseline/Heron, and other transit corridors need attention as well.

[Deez]

I'll make another "public service announcement" here to make sure people understand what's going on...

This plan is NOT the final TMP transit network that will be approved by council in Feb. 2009. What's being discussed is whether a tunnel is needed, what technology should be used in the tunnel and what impact this will have on the rest of the network (ie. how far should LRT be run if we run LRT in the tunnel?).

This means that additions such as a Rideau-Montreal Rd. streetcar, Carling streetcar, Baseline BRT, etc. could still be a part of the final package.

I can, however, almost guarantee that there will be no commuter rail as a part of the plan. There's very little value in it, even if the capital costs are dirt cheap.

One final point. It is my personal opinion that without some sort of council intervention, we won't be seeing shovels in the ground before late 2010 or 2011. Remember there's still a year before council approves the TMP (which will identifies which corridors will be built, how much they will cost, and when they should be built), then EAs for each corridor have to be completed, then there's tendering, then there's a wait, then there's procurement, then there's a wait, THEN there's construction. As much as I wish we could do all that in one magical process, it ain't gonna happen. Especially after the last plan was scrutinized for being "rushed".

[waterloowarrior]

Federal, provincial ministers keen to see details of new transit plan
Jake Rupert The Ottawa Citizen
Thursday, February 28, 2008

Local cabinet ministers in the provincial and federal governments said Thursday they looking forward to seeing more details on the city's new vision for the future of mass transit.

Canada's environment minister, Ottawa West-Nepean Conservative MP said John Baird, said he's "excited" to learn more details about the city's mass transit plans, which will be officially announced, on Monday.

"We are committed to working with the province and the city on this issue," Mr. Baird said Thursday.

Ontario's municipal affairs and housing minister, Ottawa West-Nepean MPP Jim Watson, said he was pleased to see the city's new vision is designed to serve the entire city over the next two decades.

"It appears (the city) has a more focused plan that is long term," he said. "I think there was a level of frustration that it was unclear where the city was going when it comes to transit, and I think what we're seeing now is encouraging."

Next week, city staff will present several transit options for a city-wide mass transit system based on a light rail spine running east-west on the current urban bus transit way from Lincoln Fields through a downtown subway to Blair Station and south from Bayview to Riverside South on a dedicated transit corridor.

Bus transit ways in the east, west, and southwest suburbs would connect to the light rail lines.

The total cost, depending on what options council makes, would be in the $3.2-billion to $3.6-billion range, and it could be phased in over 23 years, or a shorter period of funding is available.

The options will now go to public consultation and the plan will be refined over the next year before council decides on how it wants to proceed.

After this, it's a matter of getting the funding together, and the city will be looking to the provincial and federal governments for money.

Both ministers said their governments still have $200 million each toward transit on the table, which was committed towards the now-defunct old light rail project.

They said when the funding requests come, their decision making approaches will be similar. They said the city needs to show the proposed system will get more transit riders, take cars off the road, and that the costs are reasonable.

"We have said and demonstrated that we are in the transit business," Mr. Watson said. "We need to see that it will increase transit ridership and that it is economically feasible for all three levels of government."

Mr. Watson his government will be paying close attention technical studies done by the city on the subway tunnel and its estimated costs. He said experiences around North America recently show such projects often balloon way over estimates.

"We want to be very careful and be sure that these estimates are accurate and that the project will come in on budget," he said.

Mr. Baird also said his government is interested in funding transit projects for a number of environmental, social and economic reasons.

"We need to get people out of cars and on to transit," he said. "Once all the details are known, we will be able to say if this is something the government is interested in funding or not."

© The Ottawa Citizen 2008

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=2f115328-aa21-4759-aa2e-054756eb645e&k=35681

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by Deez

This plan is NOT the final TMP transit network that will be approved by council in Feb. 2009. What's being discussed is whether a tunnel is needed, what technology should be used in the tunnel and what impact this will have on the rest of the network (ie. how far should LRT be run if we run LRT in the tunnel?).

Taking more than a year for that, even if it's a 200 pages report, is really not good. It shows how of a bureaucratic mess the city is in. This should have taken 3 months tops, especially with the number of employees there are.

EDIT: I really didn't want to sound condescending, I had engineering plans done in 2 weeks, it took more than 3 years for approval, so I know how it works

[waterloowarrior]

^ they have to write backgrounder papers; gather, purchase, manipulate, and analyze data; do public consultation with all the time that it takes to prepare for public meetings and analyze the comments; have meetings with stakeholder groups; waiting for the next meeting to seek council's direction; have time for rfps and time for the consultants to work on certain parts.... also I'm guessing a bunch of the same staff are working on the TMP, OP update, and many other projects...

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

^ they have to write backgrounder papers; gather, purchase, manipulate, and analyze data; do public consultation with all the time that it takes to prepare for public meetings and analyze the comments; have meetings with stakeholder groups; waiting for the next meeting to seek council's direction; have time for rfps and time for the consultants to work on certain parts.... also I'm guessing a bunch of the same staff are working on the TMP, OP update, and many other projects...

(assuming everything here)
Yes for the TMP, but no public consultation was done for this draft, nor with businesses. This will come starting next week. Council's direction was really brief, it was about a tunnel, and LRT to the South. In the end, we still get the same corridors as before, just different technology (many which are still not decided...). Not to say I'm underwhelmed, I knew that the April plan would be this, but in the end, it's still took more than a year to get lines on a paper.

I still remember Nancy's comments last Fall, as how converting the Transitway brings little benefits. What as changed since then?

[Deez]

^No consultation? What do you think all the consultation activity during the fall was all about? The streeter surveys, the city cafe, focus groups, "Ottawa Talks" (which I noticed you were active in ). Those were all inputs to the plan. At least in theory.

If I had to estimate, I would wager 90% of the City's resources (including staff and funds) are being spent on administrative and bureaucratic processes rather than actually coming up with a good plan. It's really frustrating. That being said, I'm happy with the plan in its current form and I'm eager to see it get built.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by Deez

^No consultation? What do you think all the consultation activity during the fall was all about? The streeter surveys, the city cafe, focus groups, "Ottawa Talks" (which I noticed you were active in ). Those were all inputs to the plan. At least in theory.

If I had to estimate, I would wager 90% of the City's resources (including staff and funds) are being spent on administrative and bureaucratic processes rather than actually coming up with a good plan. It's really frustrating. That being said, I'm happy with the plan in its current form and I'm eager to see it get built.

Haha, well yes, I would say in theory too. My job is the same, but i would say 98% in adminstrative and bureaucratic processes.

Don't you think I'm not happy with the plan? I'm ecstatic about the plan. How can I not be not happy about it? The metrO plan called for a light metro, we got a light metro (in theory). Long platforms, we get long platforms. Transitway conversion, we get Transitway conversion. Just look at the map on the Ottawa Transit website, if the grand plan over the next 70 years is to convert the Transitway to LRT, well you got the OT plan. Add to that the commuter lines that were suggest to be at Heron and the Via stations, well you got the complete metrO plan.

Now, the only thing I want next, is to have a better name than the O-Train (especially if we get trams and a commuter train). Well a name and that construction starts soon. The reason why I don't think that O-Train is appropriate, is that if will we call the GO-Train if it gets here? And based on take the A-Train, wow, Calgary did that 20 years before.

[c_speed3108]

Council Hits Road

Some councillors complain transit plan comes up short


By DEREK PUDDICOMBE, CITY HALL BUREAU


With city staff poised to unveil the latest version of Ottawa's transit future, some councillors aren't happy with what they know won't be included.

Barrhaven Coun. Jan Harder said she's frustrated with the plan because it neglects her ward.

"I have been told there is nothing for Barrhaven," said Harder.

The new transportation master plan is expected to be implemented over the next 25 years and pegged to cost taxpayers between $3.2 billion and $4 billion.

The cancelled north-south light-rail transit project was to feature a 30-km line from the heart of Barrhaven to the University of Ottawa.

Harder feels her constituents have been left out of any future transit growth because city staff are afraid to design anything that resembles the cancelled project.


"We are being punished in the south end," said Harder. "Staff are so afraid of coming up with something that is remotely close to the north-south LRT."

FOUGHT FOR LINE

Harder's reasoning is that some councillors didn't approve of the north-south route because it didn't address the needs of transit users travelling east-west. Harder has consistently fought for a rapid transit line to serve the west-end ward. With a population of almost 60,000, the ward could grow to a maximum of 172,000 people over the next 15 to 20 years.

"They are trying to make it so difficult that Barrhaven will have to wait until you know what freezes over," she said.

On Monday, city staff will officially unveil the new plan, which is expected to have four major elements. The Sun first reported last week that it will include a downtown tunnel, an LRT line from Riverside South to the Bayview station, completing the city's transitway and a Cumberland transitway.

Harder said if the city is proposing a north-south light rail line, it should travel beyond Riverside South.

"Riverside South isn't growing as anticipated," she said.

Staff have said recently that the cost to build a north-south line and a tunnel could cost about $1.3 billion. Completing all four elements of the project over the next 25 years could cost the city almost $4 billion.

Kanata-South Coun. Peggy Feltmate is counting on the Transitway being completed to Terry Fox, which she hopes will relieve congestion on the Queensway during rush hour.

TRANSITWAY EXTENSION

"We need it completed immediately," said Feltmate, who also said extending the transitway to Scotiabank Place is critical.

Alta Vista Coun. Peter Hume said building a downtown tunnel is the most important element of any long-term transit plan.

"After 25 years, the system wouldn't be able to work without a tunnel," he said.

[AuxTown]

Harder feels her constituents have been left out of any future transit growth because city staff are afraid to design anything that resembles the cancelled project.


"We are being punished in the south end," said Harder. "Staff are so afraid of coming up with something that is remotely close to the north-south LRT."

FOUGHT FOR LINE

Harder's reasoning is that some councillors didn't approve of the north-south route because it didn't address the needs of transit users travelling east-west. Harder has consistently fought for a rapid transit line to serve the west-end ward. With a population of almost 60,000, the ward could grow to a maximum of 172,000 people over the next 15 to 20 years.

"They are trying to make it so difficult that Barrhaven will have to wait until you know what freezes over," she said.

On Monday, city staff will officially unveil the new plan, which is expected to have four major elements. The Sun first reported last week that it will include a downtown tunnel, an LRT line from Riverside South to the Bayview station, completing the city's transitway and a Cumberland transitway.

That's the biggest load of — I've ever heard. Does she not remember the recent completion of the transitway all the way to Barhaven Town Centre? Does she not realize that Kanata, a city of almost 100 000 people, does not even have that level of transit service? The council has no vision and absolutely no ability to look outside of their own little ward to see how the proposed LRT would be good for the entire city. How many people from Barhaven would be transferring to LRT at Lincoln Fields and using the DT tunnel to get to work in the morning (I'm sure we have the stat somewhere)? The next councillor to cry about the plan not properly servicing their ward should be gagged and conveiniently not invited to the next transportation meeting as they obviously have nothing constructive to add and have no interest in improving Ottawa as a whole.

Oh ya, go Peter Hume!

[c_speed3108]

Originally Posted by O-Town Hockey

That's the biggest load of — I've ever heard. Does she not remember the recent completion of the transitway all the way to Barhaven Town Centre? Does she not realize that Kanata, a city of almost 100 000 people, does not even have that level of transit service? The council has no vision and absolutely no ability to look outside of their own little ward to see how the proposed LRT would be good for the entire city. How many people from Barhaven would be transferring to LRT at Lincoln Fields and using the DT tunnel to get to work in the morning (I'm sure we have the stat somewhere)? The next councillor to cry about the plan not properly servicing their ward should be gagged and conveiniently not invited to the next transportation meeting as they obviously have nothing constructive to add and have no interest in improving Ottawa as a whole.

Oh ya, go Peter Hume!

I am with you on your comments...

That said, I don't believe the transitway was ever completed to Barhaven Town Centre. I believe the buses just use Fallowfield and Greenbank roads...

[p_xavier]

Financing annoucement by Jim Watson for the city of Ottawa. What happened?

In Le Droit:

Hier après-midi, le ministre des Affaires municipales et du Logement et député provincial d'Ottawa-Ouest - Nepean, le libéral Jim Watson, indiquait qu'il allait faire "une annonce importante concernant un soutien provincial supplémentaire pour les transports en commun à Ottawa" à 9 h 45 ce matin.

[lrt's friend]

That's the biggest load of — I've ever heard. Does she not remember the recent completion of the transitway all the way to Barhaven Town Centre? Does she not realize that Kanata, a city of almost 100 000 people, does not even have that level of transit service? The council has no vision and absolutely no ability to look outside of their own little ward to see how the proposed LRT would be good for the entire city. How many people from Barhaven would be transferring to LRT at Lincoln Fields and using the DT tunnel to get to work in the morning (I'm sure we have the stat somewhere)? The next councillor to cry about the plan not properly servicing their ward should be gagged and conveiniently not invited to the next transportation meeting as they obviously have nothing constructive to add and have no interest in improving Ottawa as a whole.

Oh ya, go Peter Hume!

Come on! This is exactly the time to discuss the plan and the location of routes. Wasn't this one of the main failings of the last plan, a lack of public input? The new plan is being designed by city staff (with some direction from City Council) and once released next week, it is subject to public input. As I recall, councilors were elected by the public so they should have input as well. Sure, they represent a particular ward, but there is nothing wrong with each of them making sure that their ward is well served by an overall city plan. The difference this time is that we are developing an overall plan, which should prevent the troubles that existed last time, which pitted ward against ward. At least, I hope that is the way it ends up. In any event, the main focus of next week's discussion will be downtown service. Nothing in the plan is fixed in stone at the present time and rightly so.

We also need to get our facts right. The Barrhaven Transitway is not complete to Barrhaven Town Centre. The level of service to Barrhaven and Kanata is quite comparable. There are missing gaps in the Transitway to both locations. Please remember that there are bus lanes all the way out to Eagleson Road at the present time.

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by d_jeffrey

Financing annoucement by Jim Watson for the city of Ottawa. What happened?

In Le Droit:

Ottawa gets $27M in provincial cash for transit
Updated: Fri Feb. 29 2008 11:27:08

ctvottawa.ca

Ottawa's beleaguered public transit system is getting a $27 million boost from the provincial government.

Municipal Affairs Minister Jim Watson says the new money will help OC Transpo repair the existing fleet and purchase new buses, bus engines and shelters.

The money may also be used to purchase:

hybrid buses
security cameras
bus terminal lighting
GPS and other communication systems
"The McGuinty government continues to invest in public transit in Ottawa because we understand the importance of a high quality and efficient public transit system," Watson said.

The extra funding comes as OC Transpo copes with a shortfall of buses, drivers and a maintenance backlog.

Some peak bus routes are now running on a reduced schedule until April 2.

Ottawa Mayor Larry O'Brien says he is pleased with the announcement and welcomes the province's investment in local public transportation.




More to come . . .

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

We also need to get our facts right. The Barrhaven Transitway is not complete to Barrhaven Town Centre. The level of service to Barrhaven and Kanata is quite comparable. There are missing gaps in the Transitway to both locations. Please remember that there are bus lanes all the way out to Eagleson Road at the present time.

I still assume that the plan will complete the Transitway for Barrhaven, Orleans and Kanata. So how is her ward different from Kanata or Orleans?

Thanks Brad for the information.

[lrt's friend]

Here we go. Everybody has to be treated exactly equally, which is entirely impossible. That kind of logic taken to an extreme leads us back to a bus only transit system. Why should certain parts of the city get an elite rail system, while others don't? Why should we build to Baseline instead of Bayshore or whereever else?

By that same logic, we can't build a second rapid transit line to Orleans because Kanata is only getting one.

This is exactly how we got into trouble the last time.



Let's build something that will help people move around the city better. If we start compromising all over the place in an attempt to create equality instead of making transit riders priority one, we are going to spend a huge sum of money and not get that much from it. This is a real risk and it is easy to find examples of expensive rapid transit lines that did not meet expectations.

Jan Harder is pushing for a Barrhaven Town Centre LRT terminus for a couple of reasons. First, it will help get funding for the Strandherd Bridge. Second, it is the logical terminating point because it is the one and only location of a large shopping centre in the south end. If we want to have successful rapid transit, we need to connect major transit destinations. And Barrhaven Town Centre is designed to serve Barrhaven (and eventually Riverside South) and the LRT route better connects the community to BTC than the proposed Transitway does. As someone else pointed out, the cost is quite small, so why would we not do it? It is better to terminate rapid transit at a transit destination than just a parking lot when it is practical to do so.

We have all seen the map suggesting Leitrim as a south terminating point. It is a joke to make that a terminus. Just have a look. It is in the bush and swamp with little or no opportunities for development within walking distance. It will just create a traffic mess based on the old narrow country road infrastructure in the area or we can spend millions widening all the roads to access transit. Sounds kinda perverse to me.

Before everybody disagrees with me, which is expected, just remember that to create equality, we would need to build the Transitway south from South Keys (instead of the train) through the Leitrim wetland. You will never be able to sell that to the environmentalists. This alone creates a unique set of circumstances requiring a solution different from other parts of the city.