The future of Ottawa's Transit

[waterloowarrior]

Originally Posted by Deez

Keep in mind this is not the focus of this stage of the plan. The aim of this round of consultation is to put to bed anyone who still thinks we should continue running on the surface or running BRT in a tunnel.

Alignment choices like that stretch will be part of an EA (yay...).

good point.. at least the EAs are 6 months max now though.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the costs include completion of the transitway that was identified in the 2003 TMP (ie. between Stittsville, Bayshore and Lincoln Fields; Barrhaven Centre to Baseline; Cumberland Transitway, etc). Those corridors amount to more than 1B$. The costs also include vehicles.

yikes. thankfully a bunch of the route KM in Kanata are being done by the MTO (I assume Ottawa isn't paying for that, but I guess they could be). Was that included in the costs?

[Kitchissippi]

This is great, a really good base LRT system that has future expansion in mind. I wish the western terminal would be Bayshore instead of Lincoln Fields, though, which would make it an easier sell to Kanata residents. Bayshore is kind of the western counterpart to Blair, being right at the edge of the Greenbelt.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

This is great, a really good base LRT system that has future expansion in mind. I wish the western terminal would be Bayshore instead of Lincoln Fields, though, which would make it an easier sell to Kanata residents. Bayshore is kind of the western counterpart to Blair, being right at the edge of the Greenbelt.

I would definately agree too. Too bad that stretch is now under construction... (well not that I complain that things are actually in construction)

I wonder where LRT Friend is. He'll go bonkers when he reads that the Transitway corridors are meant to be converted to LRT.

[Kitchissippi]

Maybe someone's gone shopping for a black turtleneck and a pet monkey.

I was watching the Daily Planet segment tonight on tunneling for the Canada Line in Vancouver. Wow, they're going 10 metres a day. If we went with the same tunnel boring machine which makes a tunnel wide enough for one train, I reckon we could get similar twin tunnels in place through the 3 kms of downtown within a two year period.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Maybe someone's gone shopping for a black turtleneck and a pet monkey.

I was watching the Daily Planet segment tonight on tunneling for the Canada Line in Vancouver. Wow, they're going 10 metres a day. If we went with the same tunnel boring machine which makes a tunnel wide enough for one train, I reckon we could get similar twin tunnels in place through the 3 kms of downtown within a two year period.

I've read for the Marid metro, the trick to cheap construction is a single bored tunnel using 3rd track LRT. Twin tunneling is not required, since it's cheaper to build one in that case. Lots of money is saved.

I recommend you to read the city of Toronto report on the Madrid subway success.

[BlackRedGold]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

This is great, a really good base LRT system that has future expansion in mind. I wish the western terminal would be Bayshore instead of Lincoln Fields, though, which would make it an easier sell to Kanata residents. Bayshore is kind of the western counterpart to Blair, being right at the edge of the Greenbelt.

But you could also make a case for Baseline to make it an easier sell for Nepean residents.

Lincoln Fields is a compromise. The first station where the buses from Nepean and Kanata converge.

[Kitchissippi]

A larger tunnel would use a larger TBM which would cost more, but I guess boring just one would shorten the time you'd use it. I think the rock under Madrid is mostly sandstone though, allowing for their 40 metres a day progress.

I have read about the Madrid tunnel, and the relatively cheap costs. I've been to Spain and definitely their construction standards labour rules are very different. I was shocked to see a construction worker polish down a terrazzo floor in his sandals. The money spent in Canada for jobsite safety and security is enormous.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

A larger tunnel would use a larger TBM which would cost more, but I guess boring just one would shorten the time you'd use it. I think the rock under Madrid is mostly sandstone though, allowing for their 40 metres a day progress.

The boring machine usually costs 20-30M$. It's not the boring that is expensive, it's the mega-deep stations you need to build afterwards. Boring tunnels gets cheaper over the years. Construction, not so much...

But yes, even if a larger tunnel costs 50% more. You still only need to dig one.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by BlackRedGold

But you could also make a case for Baseline to make it an easier sell for Nepean residents.

Lincoln Fields is a compromise. The first station where the buses from Nepean and Kanata converge.

True, taking it to Baseline would make it convenient to Algonquin students. I guess there is more land around Lincoln Fields to stage the various buses.

[eemy]

A bit OT, but does anyone know why they needed to use such a large (15m diameter) TBM in Madrid? By my calculations, that is quite possibly enough space to fit four sets of tracks through (if they were stacked).

[Deez]

Originally Posted by BlackRedGold

But you could also make a case for Baseline to make it an easier sell for Nepean residents.

Lincoln Fields is a compromise. The first station where the buses from Nepean and Kanata converge.

Again with the media trusting...

LRT to Baseline, not LF.

[ikerrin]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

A larger tunnel would use a larger TBM which would cost more, but I guess boring just one would shorten the time you'd use it. I think the rock under Madrid is mostly sandstone though, allowing for their 40 metres a day progress.

I have read about the Madrid tunnel, and the relatively cheap costs. I've been to Spain and definitely their construction standards labour rules are very different. I was shocked to see a construction worker polish down a terrazzo floor in his sandals. The money spent in Canada for jobsite safety and security is enormous.

Jeesh, 2015 till we get stage one finished? Boring 40 metres a day would complete 4 km in 100 days. Granted there is still station construction, but do I really need to wait 7 years until I can take a simple 4 station metro trip.

You would think that we were going to the moon. I just wish that they would give us 3 months to comment, then go for funding and start building in 2009.

On top of everything, we don't get much that is new in this plan, its mainly an upgrade to the current BRT plan to a rail plan. It expands capacity since there will be longer cars, but its not like it goes anywhere new, and will it be much faster? Is rail on dedicated rail lines that much faster than buses on dedicated bus lines?

[ikerrin]

I have to confess that I would be happier if we had new funding for a commuter rail network, and an above ground, below ground subway from the Via Station to Lebreton and another line under Bank street.

There could be bus connections at those stations and at Heron with commuter rail along the existing rail lines out to Smiths Falls/Perth, Arnprior, and Alexandria and over the POW bridge to Wakefield. You could also run LRT along Rideau and Baseline. That would be adding new capacity and taking transit where it doesn't already exist.

[Aylmer]

I would take the E-W line on the transitway and put it in the median on Carling...

Good plan though!

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by ikerrin

I have to confess that I would be happier if we had new funding for a commuter rail network, and an above ground, below ground subway from the Via Station to Lebreton and another line under Bank street.

There could be bus connections at those stations and at Heron with commuter rail along the existing rail lines out to Smiths Falls/Perth, Arnprior, and Alexandria and over the POW bridge to Wakefield. You could also run LRT along Rideau and Baseline. That would be adding new capacity and taking transit where it doesn't already exist.

We need to worry about fixing transit in the City itself before we send it into the countryside.

[p_xavier]

The feds only put 66M$ towards the Evergreen Line in Vancouver.

I really think it's time to clarify who's responsible for public transit, it's a real joke.

[Mille Sabords]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

We need to worry about fixing transit in the City itself before we send it into the countryside.

Agreed. Subway first, urban lines next, countryside last, with provincial participation.

[ikerrin]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

We need to worry about fixing transit in the City itself before we send it into the countryside.

I don't know that transit in the city is all that broke. This plan is really just increasing capacity along existing routes. We are converting buses to rail lines (with the exception of an extension of the O-Train a little further).

Remember, most of this plan is just geared to making it a little easier for suburbanites to get into the downtown and out again. As a downtown resident who bikes 3 seasons of the year and has a short bus ride to work in winter, I just don't see what is in this for me?

I am excited about the 4 station subway that apparently takes 7 years to build (I guess they are building it with spoons), but I would far rather have an opportunity to take a train out to Arnprior for a day of biking in return for people from Arnprior having a train into the city for work. Why should I be excited about more buseway capacity to nowheresville, Orleans?

[Dado]

Originally Posted by ikerrin

On top of everything, we don't get much that is new in this plan, its mainly an upgrade to the current BRT plan to a rail plan. It expands capacity since there will be longer cars, but its not like it goes anywhere new, and will it be much faster? Is rail on dedicated rail lines that much faster than buses on dedicated bus lines?

That depends on the nature of the bus service that is being compared. If you're comparing it to frequent stop 90 series routes, then yes, light rail is faster because of shorter station dwell times (from level boarding and bigger doors) and better acceleration and deceleration. But for long-distance express buses, other than in the downtown area, light rail will take longer because it is stopping frequently. There are pretty obvious solutions for that in Ottawa, but there seems to be a hate-on for using DLRT vehicles on existing/resurrected railways, so I wouldn't count on it.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by ikerrin

As a downtown resident who bikes 3 seasons of the year and has a short bus ride to work in winter, I just don't see what is in this for me?

As a downtown resident, you should care, as it will rid downtown of hundreds of buses. Especially as a cyclist, this has a huge impact for you, as Albert and Slater streets are actually a vital section of the cycling transportation network (which is why there are bike lanes on the Mackenzie-King Bridge) that has never been implemented properly because of conflicts with the Transitway.