The future of Ottawa's Transit

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by c_speed3108

Just to make Deez's day...


Councillor Wants to See Transit Plan Now
Josh Pringle (CFRA)
Tuesday, February 26, 2008

An Ottawa City Councillor wants City Staff to release the new transit plan immediately.

The vision for the future of transit in Ottawa will include a downtown transit tunnel, completing the transitway, extending the Light Rail Transit route to the south-end and a Cumberland transit line.

The new "Plan B" will be released on Monday.

Councillor Maria McRae wonders why the report isn't being released now if it is ready.

There is no pricetag on the transit plan that will take the City of Ottawa to 2031.

Public open houses will begin next week. The staff report will include options, but it will be up to City Council to set the transit priorities.

I don't see why not... I've signed up for the downtown discussion forum next week... it would be nice to digest the recommendations beforehand.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

I don't see why not... I've signed up for the downtown discussion forum next week... it would be nice to digest the recommendations beforehand.

Exactly. Also it shows that the councillors won't wait a year before finalising the Transit section of the TMP. This is an extraordinary situation, normal planning process will be cut short IMO.

[Aylmer]

Oh, build the damn plan now and stop creating plans from A to ZZ!

Bother.

[Cre47]

They definitely need to do some parts as soon as possible, there's more then enough time lost.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

speaking of boats, I've always thought it would be interesting to have an "O-Boat" (Eau-Bateau??) along the Rideau for Carleton, UofO, and some of the older neighbourhoods. I wonder how the speed would compare to surface routes like Colonel By during peak periods.

quick and dirty.....

Funny, but I have thought that *if* there was a Carling Line, it could go underground beside the Canal (there's quite a bit of room along the Queen Elizabeth Driveway where rumblings from a tunnel would not disturb residential areas in the Glebe). With a transfer at Hurdman it could basically provide service along the same corridor:



The neat thing is that it could provide a direct link between Lansdowne and Scotiabank Place (and possibly the baseball stadium or a new stadium at Hurdman) if Ottawa decided to bid for a large sporting event like the Commonwealth games

Throw in a streetcar on Bank Street from Wellington to Billings Bridge and we'd be really good to go!

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

The neat thing is that it could provide a direct link between Lansdowne and Scotiabank Place (and possibly the baseball stadium or a new stadium at Hurdman) if Ottawa decided to bid for a large sporting event like the Commonwealth games

Throw in a streetcar on Bank Street from Wellington to Billings Bridge and we'd be really good to go!

At least people here seem to have changed from a Streetcar mindset (well except your last comment) to a Subway mindset. Which is great IMO. Hopefully the rest of the city will get that change too.

[Deez]

Originally Posted by c_speed3108

Just to make Deez's day...

Councillor Maria McRae wonders why the report isn't being released now if it is ready.

Probably because it's not ready. I've yet to understand why most people (including councillors) seem to trust the media more than city staff.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by Deez

Probably because it's not ready. I've yet to understand why most people (including councillors) seem to trust the media more than city staff.

I think her question is, why city staff trusts the media more than the councillors...

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by Deez

Probably because it's not ready. I've yet to understand why most people (including councillors) seem to trust the media more than city staff.

I've done simulations for NASA systems that took much less than that for god's sake. How long is it to come up with a correct simulation with correct numbers for a transit system? It has been more than a year to come up with a plan... it's too many months spent on numbers that should already have been calculated before.

People are getting fed up, we're not talking about complete plans, we're talking about lines on a sheet here, with simulated numbers backing them up.

[Dado]

Originally Posted by d_jeffrey

People are getting fed up, we're not talking about complete plans, we're talking about lines on a sheet here, with simulated numbers backing them up.

I think you want "simulation numbers", not "simulated numbers" .

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by Dado

I think you want "simulation numbers", not "simulated numbers" .

Actually, it's simulated numbers because they are results of a simulation.

[Deez]

If/when you're on the other side of the fence, you'll see that it's not that simple.

If you're going to come out with a plan, you have to be able to prove that your plan is better than what other people have proposed or else councillors will have a tantrum. Including all appendices, the report should be around 200 pages. I honestly don't understand how Toronto gets away with drawing lines.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by Deez

If/when you're on the other side of the fence, you'll see that it's not that simple.

If you're going to come out with a plan, you have to be able to prove that your plan is better than what other people have proposed or else councillors will have a tantrum. Including all appendices, the report should be around 200 pages. I honestly don't understand how Toronto gets away with drawing lines.

No worries, may SSP be with you. Maybe because I'm used to dealing with a research environment, but the answer given must always be the greatest one, and be backed up with everything. That's why I was pissed for a bit last Fall, when people say prove it to me. I said fine, it takes a long time, but I need help. Nobody wanted to help.

Though I really felt vindicated, when the lines actually follow the plan me and my friends came up with. (well at least the first section)

Working on a project like that is frustrating because you always have people who can't vision the whole project, and takes 3 months to understand something you did understood in 2 days.

As in regards with Toronto, I agree with you, it's really not fair. It seems that Ontario politicians are spitting on Ottawa for every reason they can. But look, many here weren't kind either to councillors and the city. All of us are guilty of that. Compared to other cities, how many times that we actually see concillors fighting for their wards, and be genuinely interested in their things? They are passed the "do nothing" stage.

You know what, I wish I could really be involved in the transit project more, I have applied for all the committees and all jobs I could possibily do. Most of you may find that I'm here 24/7, but it's nearly that. I'm really passionated about this project, and I wish I would have studied civil engineering to be able to have a hands on feel.

[waterloowarrior]

transportation and transit committee meetings scheduled for next wednesday have been postponed to march 19th

[Cre47]

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/city/story.html?id=c1bb612a-e8db-4f48-8b63-caa71154d057

The deputy city manager blasting the drop in reliability service. The article also shows, and what was said in a November report that Routes 2, 3 and 85 will be fixed. Although, the proposals are still not posted and it is at least 3 weeks behind the usual time the proposed changes and consultation meetings are announced. Keep in mind, they need major improvements for the skyrocketing fare increases

[waterloowarrior]

New Ottawa transit plan weighs in at $3.2B-plus
Jake RupertThe Ottawa Citizen
Wednesday, February 27, 2008

The city's new proposed mass transit system contains a mix of light rail and buses and a downtown subway, and it comes with a heavy, $3.2 to $3.6 billion estimated price tag.

There are many options contained in the vision for mass transit being presented by city staff next week, but the basis, according to several city hall sources, is a light rail spine connected to bus transit ways.

The idea is to create an east-west light-rail line running from Blair Station in the east, along the current bus transit way to a downtown tunnel starting in the vicinity of the University of Ottawa. The tunnel would run across downtown with roughly four stations, and come out on Lebreton Flats.

From there, the line would follow the western transit way to the Lincoln Fields station. With the tunnel, the east-west line is estimated to cost $1.5 billion.

Under the plan, the current Orleans bus transit way and a new Cumberland bus transit way ($450 million) would end at Blair Station where riders would transfer to light-rail cars to go downtown. Commuters from the western suburbs of Kanata and Stittsville would be collected in buses and take the western transit way to Lincoln Fields station for their transfer to light rail to go downtown.

Barrhaven commuters would have two choices. They could hop a bus down the south western transit way and transfer to light rail at Lincoln Fields, or they could take a new bus transit way eastward across a future Strandherd-Armstrong bridge ($105 million) that would drop them at a transfer station in Riverside South.

Completing and extending all western transit ways, including the Barrhaven to Riverside South connection, is estimated to cost $500 million.

People from Riverside South and Barrhaven riders would get on a new light rail line running straight north roughly down the airport parkway transit route to the current O-Train line to Bayview where the line would hook up with the east-west route and the subway. This light rail line would cost roughly $800 million.

All figures being presented are estimates and can go up or down depending on the choice of technology and vehicles chosen.

The rough time line for getting the complete vision constructed is 23 years, but if things go well, people could be riding in a subway across downtown by 2015 and possibly earlier. There are options to go faster and convert more bus transit ways to light rail sooner. If the options are taken, the costs go up.

They very long-term vision sees all bus transit ways converted to light rail and the whole thing meshed with a regional commuter rail system that several municipalities in eastern Ontario are trying to get started.

Under the Ottawa plan, construction of the system would start with the tunnel. The order of what gets constructed after that will be determined by council and is already cause for some concern by councillors.

Cumberland Councillor Rob Jellett has some issues with the plan, but he said over all, he thinks the city is finally on the right track when it comes to mass transit.

"It's a good plan, and it's the right way to go for the whole city," Mr. Jellett said. "It's going to cost, but it's worth it. We need a true mass transit system in this city and this gives us that."

Mr. Jellett said before making a decision, the city needs to determine the real cost of constructing, maintaining and operating the system long term, as in decades. He said it may be a case where the short-term costs of constructing more light rail is higher than bus routes, but that over decades rail is cheaper.

"It might be short term pain for long term gain, but it's time for this city to get a world class transit system and the benefits will last for years," he said.

After the plan is released, the city will hold its first round of public consultations on it, and refinements will continue to be made until the fall when a recommended network will be put before council to approve as the direction of mass transit in the city for decades to come. Absolute final approval will come in the spring of 2009.

Once this is done, the city will go about finding a way to finance the projects.

Alta Vista Councillor Peter Hume said the city will be counting heavily on provincial and federal government funding to get the system up and running, so the plan has to be rock solid and the proof that it's needed has to be irrefutable.

The city's deputy manager of planning, transit and the environment, Nancy Schepers, would not comment on the details of the vision, but she said she's confident it will gain public and political acceptance because her department poured over what the city needs and what people want before coming up with the options.

"I think there will be consensus," Ms. Schepers said. "I'm confident we will find a reasonable solution."

The plan replaces one developed by the city from 2000 to 2006 that died after former mayor Bob Chiarelli was defeated by Mayor Larry O'Brien. At the time, many councillors and Mayor O'Brien voted against the old system because it had light rail cars running with buses and cars on the same downtown streets that are already past volume capacities.

From the first day of his campaign, Mr. O'Brien has been pushing for a tunnel. He declined to comment on the plan yesterday, but in later December when the city's transit staff were getting the vision together, the mayor said he was confident that when the public and other levels of government see the final plans, they will see it's value and support it.

"This is a bigger, more comprehensive plan than before," he said. "We're on solid footing here, and I think once people see that, the money will come relatively quickly."

Bay Councillor Alex Cullen said the new vision is a winner because with the inclusion of the tunnel, it addresses the major failing of the old plan.

"This is a much better plan than the direction the city was going in two years ago," Mr. Cullen said.

He said many issues like how far to extend light rail, whether it's electrified of diesel powered or hybrid, how to phase in the various components, and how much the city can spend, all need to be sorted out, and they will be difficult issues to get agreement on. But he said, getting a real mass transit system in place, is key to the future of the city.

"It will be the biggest project in Ottawa's history and will transform the city," Mr. Cullen said.

© The Ottawa Citizen 2008

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=adbe8c25-c4fd-4417-a01a-8199aaf8ef44&k=27274

[waterloowarrior]

I wonder why the NS LRT's "Barrhaven Extension" would be BRT rather than LRT. The LRT extension would have cost 25 million under the old plan, I doubt BRT would cost significantly less, and it would better to have LRT to reduce transfers and improve service to Carleton.

Looking forward to seeing how how the Dominion to Lincoln fields service would work... new alignment? converting a carriageway for LRT?

I guess it's all subject to change anyhow

[Ciemny]

Hmm I thought that we would not convert the transitway and look for new E-W routes Instead we are converting...but expanding as well. Won't the feds and province have issues with the fact that we are not building new corridors but converting most of an existing one? So ridership might not go up too high since we are using the same existing transitway.

What happened to possible Carling, or baseline LRT?

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

I wonder why the NS LRT's "Barrhaven Extension" would be BRT rather than LRT. The LRT extension would have cost 25 million under the old plan, I doubt BRT would cost significantly less, and it would better to have LRT to reduce transfers and improve service to Carleton.

Looking forward to seeing how how the Dominion to Lincoln fields service would work... new alignment? converting a carriageway for LRT?

I guess it's all subject to change anyhow

I still think it's about not favoring a suburb before another, and the wording in the text makes it that way. New transitway could be rail if the operating costs is much lower than BRT. A true light metro is more expensive than BRT, light rail is less expensive than true BRT. Everything is relative in costs.

Just think about it. If the Barrhaven extension is metro-based. You need to dig a trench, build overpasses, build complete stations. It's lots more expensive than running a train on a street. But you save lots on operation costs and increase the speed tremendously. For Vancouver, I think going from LRT to SkyTrain basically doubled the speed.

I assume that's what the planners will look for each corridor.

[Deez]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

Looking forward to seeing how how the Dominion to Lincoln fields service would work... new alignment? converting a carriageway for LRT?

Keep in mind this is not the focus of this stage of the plan. The aim of this round of consultation is to put to bed anyone who still thinks we should continue running on the surface or running BRT in a tunnel.

Alignment choices like that stretch will be part of an EA (yay...).

Another thing to keep in mind is that the costs include completion of the transitway that was identified in the 2003 TMP (ie. between Stittsville, Bayshore and Lincoln Fields; Barrhaven Centre to Baseline; Cumberland Transitway, etc). Those corridors amount to more than 1B$. The costs also include vehicles.