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  #3561  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2008, 7:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Comrade Reynolds View Post
Because it's one of Salt Lake's larger suburbs and the wealthiest.

The reason you don't hear about West Valley is because it's typically far more poorer than many other Salt Lake suburbs. Sandy's boom has nothing to do with its location in relation to Provo.
I see, so its a combination of a few things... My brother lives there and he doesn't keep up on developement so he's about as knowledgable as a brick wall when it comes to sandy...
do you think it has anything to do with the more liberal city of salt lake vs. the ideals and wishes of a more conservative sandy? Its interesting.. I just can't imagine sandy even comparing to salt lake...in terms of "downtown" when I was there sandy was boring.. hell ogden was more exciting than sandy...
     
     
  #3562  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2008, 7:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Boiseguy View Post
I see, so its a combination of a few things... My brother lives there and he doesn't keep up on developement so he's about as knowledgable as a brick wall when it comes to sandy...
do you think it has anything to do with the more liberal city of salt lake vs. the ideals and wishes of a more conservative sandy? Its interesting.. I just can't imagine sandy even comparing to salt lake...in terms of "downtown" when I was there sandy was boring.. hell ogden was more exciting than sandy...
It's possible. Sandy has a big ally in the Utah Legislature, which consistently undermines Salt Lake. I think it's in direct response to the fact Salt Lake is very liberal, while Sandy is conservative.

Plus it's white.

WVC, not so much.
     
     
  #3563  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2008, 7:55 PM
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Originally Posted by SLCforme View Post
Boiseguy,
I think that Sandy, being the city with the second highest tax base in the state, a sizable chunk of wealthy residents, and a lot of power in the state legislature, decided that they wanted to expand that even further in order to grow and make more money. A while back there was a map posted of land annexed by Sandy, and it was pretty incredible how much county land they have incorporated in the last 40 years.
Now for the conspiracy theory: State legislatures resent SLC for being a liberal haven in a conservative state and the city which contains the headquarters of the church to which 80% of them belong, so they decided to make a "new downtown". A family friendly downtown that feels more suburban, which they are used to, without the urban grit and diversity of SLC (It's all relative, I know). So they started backing Tom Dolans bid to increase the tax base in Sandy and make it into the downtown they want, without all the "undesirable" elements in SLC. And really just to spite SLC and it's democratic liberal mayors and constituents.
So why Sandy and not West Jordan? Well, money and opportunity seem like a plausible explanation.
Everything I've said here is my opinion, but I think there is a sizable amount of truth to it.
I replyied to comrade before I even saw your post... and its kind of along the same lines as I thought... nonetheless, its very 1950's mentality of "lets avoid the city center because of "those" people being there". Even if they propose some sort of alternative to downtown, what in their right minds do they think that it won't attract the same liberal and urban like characteristics down the road? its so silly.. I'm pretty far left liberal myself.. but I'm not anti conservative.. I just think that if that effort was put into influencing salt lake city..even if it is conservative...then atleast it would be a united urban area working together to promote the area, and having salt lake city as the centerpiece...
     
     
  #3564  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2008, 8:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Comrade Reynolds View Post
It's possible. Sandy has a big ally in the Utah Legislature, which consistently undermines Salt Lake. I think it's in direct response to the fact Salt Lake is very liberal, while Sandy is conservative.

Plus it's white.

WVC, not so much.
don't you sometimes wish you could get into those people's heads? like what are they thinking and what is their logic? To me, their actions are not about being productive, its based in self promotion with total disregard of others who live in the urban area, and a hint of spite and intolerance regarding the differences of opinions and beliefs they have concerning others...
     
     
  #3565  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2008, 9:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Boiseguy View Post
its very 1950's mentality of "lets avoid the city center because of "those" people being there".
Sadly this mentality does exist, as someone who was raised in the Salt Lake suburbs I'm very aware of what suburbanites think about downtown. But now as a city dweller I can't claim innocence, as the mentality tends to go both ways. I tend to avoid the suburbs, like I might catch some sort of disease that renders me helplessly attracted to Ford Excursions and Walmart shopping.
     
     
  #3566  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2008, 9:51 PM
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I have lived in suburbs, and I've lived downtown. I've lived in small towns and some of the largest in the world. One of the greatest things about life is the ability to choose.

I choose to live downtown because it fits my lifestyle and my personality, but my brothers that are raising their children prefer to live in the suburbs. For a long time the assumption in the Salt Lake Valley was that everybody wanted a suburban lifesty. I'm glad that we are starting to see developers that are filling the urban niche.

I do think that people ought to be able to choose. I realize that living downtown comes with certain consequences and living in the suburbs obviously comes with consequences of their own.

I guess I'm just saying that there is room in this valley for all of us.

Sandy may not be the place for you, but it is the place for 90,000 others. I suppose its the dreamer/planner in me that likes to think that if I were in charge down there that I could "fix" Sandy. This idea that Ogden, SLC, and Provo can be the only dense areas of this metro area is false. With better foresight and planning principles, downtown Sandy, could really become a dense metro center. As opposed to the golorified edge city that it is currently.

I say good luck.
     
     
  #3567  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2008, 10:03 PM
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By the way, I'm sorry if I'm overposting, but if you get a chance head down 300 West. The Kirtland Condos are really starting to take shape. Project looks great. I hope it's the start of good things on those blocks.
     
     
  #3568  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2008, 10:05 PM
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sandy is at the other end of the main trax line isn't it? I think people should have choices as well, but I think its the root of why people are choosing.. If you're choosing the suburbs to get away from congestion and noise, so you can have a yard for kids and a dog etc.. I think that's great.. if I had kids I think I would consider it.. but why then if you wish to be a suburb and be away from the city "mess" would you want to turn your suburb into a city "mess"? I would imagine that while the big boys with all the money are planning such things in sandy that they are being met with lots of protest from citizens because of this reason? there are lots of nimby's out there, but I can understand that if you purchased a house in a quiet unpopulated area for that reason why you would be upset with mass developement. that is why I think suburbs working with each other and the city center controls growth better and keeps everyone happy.. give the city people more city.. and it keeps the suburbs more suburban for the suburbanites... if that makes sense... I think Portland and Vancouver have taken great strides in doing such things, but its hard with the way that city governments work in the US... every little piddle town has a right to its independence, when the reality is, it wouldn't have grown at all if it wasn't for the attractiveness of the larger city and its job and economy.. there should be some sort of regulation or voting or something that when two cities are merged together like much of the valley is... that it should give way and be annexed into the larger city at least on a government level so that everyone is on the same page in the urban area...to me it just makes sense..
     
     
  #3569  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2008, 10:14 PM
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I agree with the bulk of your reply. Regional planning is vital to creating a healthy, prosperous metro area. The problem in doing that is that, like you mentioned, the leaders of these suburban cities don't want to share the "reins."

Portland is a good example, and Vancouver, BC is a great example of how regional planning can benefit the entire metro area.

One thing that I thought that I would point out is that there are very few Sandy residents, that I'm aware of, that are not in favor of some of these large proposals in their "downtown." I think that there is far more outcry from some inviduals who live further north in SLC that would prefer to see these large proposals come to their end of the valley.
     
     
  #3570  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2008, 10:23 PM
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I think having the trax line is influencing it as well.. you throw a mass transit option into a suburban neighbourhood and you're just asking for urbanites to flock there because you can have the best of both worlds...
light rail is definetely a big impact on an area, do you think that the aggressiveness of the trax system has given way to this as well? I mean if trax hadn't gone so far south and concentrated up in the northern part of the valley first.. and slowly expanded as the city core of salt lake filled in.. that it would have been in better favour of salt lake city? I know that here in boise there are people that want to throw a train on existing tracks that the city already owns.. it connects micron to downtown to the malls of boise meridian and downtown nampa and caldwell, but they're looking at just developing a smaller rail circulator that connects downtown with the nearby neighbourhoods and going from there later...As I think about it more, I wonder if the circulator idea is better idea for the city center vs throwing a commuter rail down and then losing developement to cities and places on that line? does that make sense?
     
     
  #3571  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2008, 11:03 PM
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I do understand what you are saying, and I think there is a need for both a circulator type of a system and a commuter type of a system. I think it was wise to extend TRAX all the way down to Sandy for a commuter facility. Right now, the interstates that we build are really built for a few hours a day, rush hour. Mid-day you could have 2 or 3 lanes and easily move traffic through the city. Having these commuter facilities, if built correctly, should be able to help take the edge off of commuting.

But having a circulator type of a system is important in a more dense city. Right now, mass transit is not convenient for day-to-day types of trips in SLC, but as the city grows and becomes more dense mass transit must be expanded to fulfill the needs of the urban population.

I have been to Boise a few times, it is a beautiful city, but until it becomes a bit more dense I have a hard time thinking that a light-rail system would do well. (Though many people said that about SLC in the 90's.) I do think that Boise metro must plan for future growth and ensure that those rail corridors are preserved.
     
     
  #3572  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2008, 12:42 AM
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Originally Posted by UTPlanner View Post
By the way, I'm sorry if I'm overposting....
Looking around, I don't think there's any such thing.
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Loving Salt Lake City. Despite everything, and because of everything.
     
     
  #3573  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2008, 12:59 AM
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Originally Posted by UTPlanner View Post
I do understand what you are saying, and I think there is a need for both a circulator type of a system and a commuter type of a system. I think it was wise to extend TRAX all the way down to Sandy for a commuter facility. Right now, the interstates that we build are really built for a few hours a day, rush hour. Mid-day you could have 2 or 3 lanes and easily move traffic through the city. Having these commuter facilities, if built correctly, should be able to help take the edge off of commuting.

But having a circulator type of a system is important in a more dense city. Right now, mass transit is not convenient for day-to-day types of trips in SLC, but as the city grows and becomes more dense mass transit must be expanded to fulfill the needs of the urban population.

I have been to Boise a few times, it is a beautiful city, but until it becomes a bit more dense I have a hard time thinking that a light-rail system would do well. (Though many people said that about SLC in the 90's.) I do think that Boise metro must plan for future growth and ensure that those rail corridors are preserved.
perhaps you're right.. I didn't take into account the pressures it takes off of commuting on I-15... the beauty of having rail service is that you can live in suburbia but live LIKE you're in the city because you don't need a car... and people like that... so it creates a demand for denser developement around that rail corridor and the end result is an extension of downtown... Rapid Bus transit coupled with the 405 corridor in seattle is what made bellevue viable to become its own centre... I think boise is smart for hanging onto the rail corridors... but I think right now just a downtown circulator would be the most viable option.. Boise doesn't have the olympics on its doorstep like salt lake did, so persuading locals that its effective takes baby steps.... but seriously though boise has the WORST public transport I've ever seen.. I know of a few people that have moved here from other places back east and they aren't use to using their car so much... it really is ridiculous... we're going through a transition period where the state legislature is our worst enemy because while idaho has changed economically.. these legislators still have the mindset of agricultural based policies...you seem very knowledgable.. and I do know that officials in boise and idaho have been down to visit salt lake to study the trax system, as well as how they made it come about given the opposition it once had... you have planner in your name so I'm assuming you might be involved in all that perhaps... anyway very insightful.. thanks mate!

Last edited by Boiseguy; Feb 7, 2008 at 1:18 AM.
     
     
  #3574  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2008, 3:40 AM
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All of the above points are very valid and very true in my opinion. I think Sandy city and the residents of the city are hoping to create their own downtown for two reason, probably more but I will focus just on two. One, they enjoy living in the suburbs yet they enjoy what the core city has to offer as far as employment opportunities, shopping and entertainment and they hope to have those same types of facilities closer to them. While many of us urbanites don't necessarily love Sandy there are those that do and like those of us that love DT SLC those Sandy lovers also want to have pride in their city and what it has to offer. By creating a DT Sandy this gives them that pride and allows them to create the downtown that they envision as the perfect downtown for them.

I don't have a problem with Sandy developing as an urban center, it obviously isn't the Core of the metro but I think it could eventually, over the next 20-30 years establish a nice core for the south end of the valley.

The problem I have is that they are trying to create all the "amenities" of a core city all at once. They want to have several skyscrapers and a large performing arts venue and think, that those will make them a downtown. They don't realize that it required baby steps to get there. I think they have a good base with City Hall, Jordan Commons, several office building around city hall that are 8+ storys. I think they aren't being patient. As the economy in Utah and the the Mtn West continues to expand and population growth continues these things will come in due time.

It isn't as if SLC doesn't want a 40+ story building or a "broadway style" theater it is simply that the demand hasn't been there until now and SLC is at a point maturity wise to take that next step and pursue those things.

As far as Trax goes, as conservative and thick skulled as many people in the city and state are. I am glad there was enough visionaries to see the future benefits of light rail for the city and despite the opposition were able to convince enough people to take the risk. I can't imagine the congestion I-15 would have if you dumped all the trax riders onto the freeway system. The most recent estimates for ridership is 60,000 passengers pass through downtown each day, that is not say 60,000 unique riders but simply a total. Either way that is a lot of extra cars that would be on I-15. I think Front Runner is the logical step and while I-15 is pretty crowded, I again think that the foresight of frontrunner must be praised. I think it is truly coming at the right time to offer transit options. UTA anticipated 5,800 riders a day in the first few months with roughly 12,000 within 15 years. I know that UTA had to estimate low because it's always better to do so in order to avoid criticism from opponents. Even if the actual ridership of Frontrunner is only a fraction of the actual vs projected ridership of trax, est. first yr 15,000 daily actual first year 21,000 daily, that is 140% of projected. That would mean at only half the that percentage FrontRunner will actually carry nearly 7,000 riders a day.

I hope all that made sense. I do anticipate Trax being expanded with in DT SLC to create a circular, I would estimate it will either continue south from Central Station and works its way to 400 S and connect to the Main/University line or it will continue down 400 W to 400 S. I would prefer the former.

With expansion of Trax and the completion of FrontRunner to Provo I would guess that Sandy won't be the only city that may develop it's own DT sort of identity.

Ok I think I rambled!
     
     
  #3575  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2008, 7:57 AM
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Question Is Draper a Factor for Sandy?

Will Trax expand in DT SLC prior to the committed projects like in WJ?

WJ is 4th now in population in UT. It is a huge deal they got Trax to agree to a path that arrives at Jordan Valley Medical Center. It started as 20 bed feeder hospital to what was Holy Cross in DT SLC. Now, JVMC, will soon have 200 beds. Largest hospital in the south valley, with the exception of IMC in Murray.

I see the needs in many places for Trax.

About Sandy, what I really don't know is how much of the pro "high amenity" type of infrastructure etc. is truly from Sandy residents and how much is from Draper? My understanding is $ really is in Draper, South Jordan and further south, but I might be wrong. What do all of you think?

No doubt the soccer arena gives a different feel to Sandy, but it just seems so disjointed to me in so many areas west of 13th East.
     
     
  #3576  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2008, 12:50 PM
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^^^
As far as I know Sandy does have a much bigger tax base income at the moment, at least commercially speaking. I would imagine West Jordan will catch up and perhaps pass Sandy at the rate it's building. Draper will have a large chunk of monster homes, but will never push for the same size of commercial structure as Sandy or West Jordan, at least in the forseeable future. Also, doesn't West Jordan have a potential for a much larger build out than Sandy? Right now, there's so much happening in Sandy and West Jordan, it's hard to know exactly where the citys will land in 5 to 10 years. One thing is for sure, they aren't shy about competing for a slice of the tax pie.

It will be interesting to see where this boom in condo and apartment housing reported below, catches the most hold. I'm hoping that a lot of it lands downtown.

Single-family Construction in Utah dives while apartment and condo construction climbs.

New-home construction in Utah takes nose dive

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695250934,00.html

...In Salt Lake County, Wood said, the market would need to add about 2,000 to 2,500 new rental units annually for a few years to meet current demand, if the population continues to grow at current rates...

.
     
     
  #3577  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2008, 1:10 PM
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Delta Air Lines jet takes off from Salt Lake City International Airport on Wednesday. (Al Hartmann/The Salt Lake Tribune )


Wall Street Journal : Northwest could announce merger next week

http://www.stockhouse.ca/mediascan/news.asp?newsid=10135697

:Delta, Northwest close to joining, source says


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23038637/

Delta, Northwest near a deal

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695250948,00.html

Delta starts new service / Northwest deal may come as early as next week

http://www.sltrib.com/business/ci_8191421

..

Last edited by delts145; Feb 7, 2008 at 1:24 PM.
     
     
  #3578  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2008, 1:29 PM
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On the trax expansions in DT SLC. The city council recently voted on the 4th South (Main to 6th West) to the Intermodal Hub and the 7th South turn to 4th West and joining with the currently being expanded extension at 4th West and 2nd South extensions. It was voted on when they voted on the Airport extension path. They had stated they wanted the extensions to go in or at least be stated by the time the Airport extension had opened. This would give more options for more trains Downtown due to the Jordan and West Valley extensions coming online.
     
     
  #3579  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2008, 2:47 PM
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On the trax expansions in DT SLC. The city council recently voted on the 4th South (Main to 6th West) to the Intermodal Hub and the 7th South turn to 4th West and joining with the currently being expanded extension at 4th West and 2nd South extensions. It was voted on when they voted on the Airport extension path. They had stated they wanted the extensions to go in or at least be stated by the time the Airport extension had opened. This would give more options for more trains Downtown due to the Jordan and West Valley extensions coming online.
Thanks for the update Makid. I'm glad to know that city council gave the nod to these extensions. I don't see any of the DT ones being placed on the construction list ahead of West Valley, or West Jordan, and most likely not Draper(unless they keep crying about the alignment).

Here's a litte map I decided to draw, again I'm bored at work and had some time. Red is either the existing routes or those currently under construction. Blue identifies the airport line, Purple is the 4th S extension approved by council and Green is the 700 S 400 W extension also mentioned.



With these extensions I really see the city becoming more and more dense and expanding towards the SW towards the 400 W 700 S intersection, creating a much larger DT. All the expansions will create so many new opportunities for Transit Oriented Development, new condos, new apartments and completely new neighborhoods within the DT core. Just imagine how dynamic the Real Stadium would have made this area if it would have been built on either of the Yellow circles. Damn you Earl Holding.

Even without the stadium DT SLC is going to continue to expand in a healthy responsible way, truly becoming a world class city.
     
     
  #3580  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2008, 5:35 PM
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I cant wait until UTA extends TRAX to Draper... I'm sick of seeing SANDY on the light-rail trains!!!!!!
     
     
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