YEG - Edmonton Int Airport

[craneSpotter]

Originally Posted by KrisYYC

I'm an industry insider, and an AC insider for years. I've tried to explain to you guys about how the hub and spoke system works, why YEG doesn't have the same level of service as YYC (no it's NOT because AC is ignoring you). Yet you still don't listen.

You're not speaking internationally are you? Because YYC's international service is nothing to brag about - it isn't even considered an international AC hub Good for a medium sized Canadian city I guess. Service to LHR and FRA. wow.

Originally Posted by KrisYYC

It's simply not economical to fly to Europe from every medium sized Canadian city.

Thats why YYC will not become a International hub for Canada anytime soon. YYZ (Europe) and YVR (AsiaPacific) are the chosen ones. You know this. YYC will get point-point international if it is worthy. Same with YEG. Service overall from YYC is not that far ahead of YEG (domestic/trans-border) as YEG has improved dramatically over the past few years. Houston is up next so you won't have to connect through YYC every time when flying between YEG-IAH then likely LGA. Although I think YYC will always maintain a lead (more PAX) due to the concentration of offices there. YEG could easily grow to 75% of YYC PAX numbers and have similar service.

Domestically there will be more point-point connections from small Canadian cities such as YXE and YQR. For example YXE just got YOW and increased service to YYZ and soon YVR. This helps them by-pass YYC, which they have typically had to connect through, even flying east!!! some times. Adding to this is the emergence of YEG as a connecting airport (mini-hub). I would think it possible that YYC growth will plateau over the next 10 years. Unless of-course the city keeps adding 25000 a year

I think YEG will continue to piss off YYC as it grows, because if YEG grows YYC's own growth is slowed. It was always a goal of YYC to be a hub for Edmonton - and they liked it best when Edmonton had service from both airports - it was an easier fight.

[KrisYYC]

I'm not speaking internationally. However, YYC is a hub for AC. And a bit of an international hub in the sense that AC's biggest overseas destinations in terms of volume are LHR and FRA by far. YVR gets the Asian bound connecting pax, YYC gets more of the regions Europe bound connecting pax.

[CanadianCentaur]

After looking back in this thread, it looks like some of us are really going overboard about AC not giving YEG flights to some place in Europe and whatnot. Holy cow. Do I see people in Winnipeg bitching and moaning about having lost AC service to LHR way back in the 1980s? No. They suck it up and go through YYZ to get to Europe or take Zoom. Yes, I'll admit to having been one of those bitching more in the past about YEG's apparent lack of service, but I've learned a lot, even if I'm obviously no expert.

I definitely wouldn't be surprised if we're way better served in terms of international/transborder destinations than most other North American metropolitan areas similar in size to ours. And that's despite YEG being so close to a hub airport (YYC, of course) and that Calgary itself has attributes like being close to Rockies and being a corporate HQ city that Edmonton can't compete with.

One big thing you got to have is PATIENCE. As YEG and Edmonton grows further, we will at least get a few more international flights.

[240glt]

I think YEG will continue to piss off YYC as it grows, because if YEG grows YYC's own growth is slowed. It was always a goal of YYC to be a hub for Edmonton - and they liked it best when Edmonton had service from both airports - it was an easier fight.

Quoted for truth... and to keep the Calgarians foaming at the mounth :-)

[Bigtime]

This thread is fun! I like to check in on it about once a week and see what the argument is about at that point

By the way over at the YYC thread we are duking it out about WJ vs AC in the west and the WJ bias that seems to exist. Come on over, it'll be a blast!

[lubicon]

Originally Posted by CanadianCentaur

After looking back in this thread, it looks like some of us are really going overboard about AC not giving YEG flights to some place in Europe and whatnot. Holy cow. Do I see people in Winnipeg bitching and moaning about having lost AC service to LHR way back in the 1980s? No. They suck it up and go through YYZ to get to Europe or take Zoom. Yes, I'll admit to having been one of those bitching more in the past about YEG's apparent lack of service, but I've learned a lot, even if I'm obviously no expert.

I definitely wouldn't be surprised if we're way better served in terms of international/transborder destinations than most other North American metropolitan areas similar in size to ours. And that's despite YEG being so close to a hub airport (YYC, of course) and that Calgary itself has attributes like being close to Rockies and being a corporate HQ city that Edmonton can't compete with.

One big thing you got to have is PATIENCE. As YEG and Edmonton grows further, we will at least get a few more international flights.

Good point, although it may be more accurate to compare YEG to US cities of similar stature, not necessarily size. Similar sized cities in the US (eg Austin, Oklahoma City, Sacramento etc) do not come close to having the same level of servixe YEG does. But remember that Edmonton (on a canadian scale) is a much larger & more important city than these cities are in the U.S. It may be more accurate to compare YEG to larger American cities that play a similar role to Edmonton.

And there are full blown hub cities in the U.S. that have comparable international traffic/routes to YEG. DEN, SLC, and CVG come to mind. They are actual hub cities but have very few international routes.

Sure it would be nice to have more routes out of YEG, but it's still pretty good and the level of growth has been phenominal the last few years, particulary to the US. It wasn't that long ago the MSP and SLC were the only cities served.

And going slightly OT, I'm hearing rumours of AC planning some fairly big things for YMM (Ft McMurray).

[KrisYYC]

Originally Posted by CanadianCentaur

After looking back in this thread, it looks like some of us are really going overboard about AC not giving YEG flights to some place in Europe and whatnot. Holy cow. Do I see people in Winnipeg bitching and moaning about having lost AC service to LHR way back in the 1980s? No. They suck it up and go through YYZ to get to Europe or take Zoom. Yes, I'll admit to having been one of those bitching more in the past about YEG's apparent lack of service, but I've learned a lot, even if I'm obviously no expert.

I definitely wouldn't be surprised if we're way better served in terms of international/transborder destinations than most other North American metropolitan areas similar in size to ours. And that's despite YEG being so close to a hub airport (YYC, of course) and that Calgary itself has attributes like being close to Rockies and being a corporate HQ city that Edmonton can't compete with.

One big thing you got to have is PATIENCE. As YEG and Edmonton grows further, we will at least get a few more international flights.

Great points. Funny how you mentioned Winnpegers not bitching about their perceived lack of service. Over at airliners.net a user from Winnipeg just started a thread complaining that the airlines are ignoring YWG

[Rocket252]

^ And no one in Calgary bitches about their lack of service?

Oh, thats right Calgary is loved by two Airlines - Westjet and Air Canada.

They have nothing to complain about.

[KrisYYC]

Originally Posted by Rocket252

^ And no one in Calgary bitches about their lack of service?

Oh, thats right Calgary is loved by two Airlines - Westjet and Air Canada.

They have nothing to complain about.

I have yet to see a Calgarian on either this forum, or airliners.net complain about Calgary being under served or ignored by airlines. Calgarians for the most part are happy with the service we have. Of course we talk about how we'd love to see more, but we don't act like we are entitled to more service, then whine and throw our toys out of the pram every time an airline announces new service from a city that isn't Calgary.

[Bigtime]

Originally Posted by Rocket252

^ And no one in Calgary bitches about their lack of service?

Oh, thats right Calgary is loved by two Airlines - Westjet and Air Canada.

They have nothing to complain about.

I'm happy with our service, but I do want to be loved by Emirates or Cathay Pacific

Edit: I'm already on the YWG thread at a.net, I can't wait to watch it degrade and crush that poor forumers dreams of more service for Winnipeg right now.

[tuffyy]

Hence the reason many Edmontonians whine about there service.

I have no complaints about AC personally considering they have been reasonable to YEG despite the fact we live in the shadow of a major focus city for the airline.I have asked AC folk during meetings just what YYC is to AC and the response was always ''focus'' city or mini hub.
That is what YYC is if you look at the major presence in cities such as YYZ,YUL and YVR.
A interesting fact came up when AC added YEG-LHR, we had met several times over a year regarding the route and pulled out the numbers showing the demand for both pax and freight from YEG to Europe in general.
Our aim was service to a gateway european city such as LHR or FRA.Interestingly the numbers were very impressive but the YYC factor/hub kept coming in the way (NO BS).Oddly shortly after BA added YYC AC called for us to meet again.The YEG-LHR route would be added, no if's ands or but's.
Came rather suddenly but we took it.We realized full well what was happening the demand had always been there and now with a competitor entering the market the airline would rather have as many folk fly on AC aircraft then connect at YYC and possibly fly the competiton.
Stop the bleeding before it ever really starts was the theory.
AC's YEG-LHR flights average a 80% load factor and freight is full 9 time out of 10, thats just a average load factor for the flight as it is often full and in many cases oversold.We continue to work with AC and will continue to do so for as long as we and they exsist.
We have strong marketing numbers and are currently in the final stages of a deal with a carrier to offer more international service abroad (all I can say), our transborder numbers are also set to increase in 2008 as we expect we will add more flights (all I can say).And cargo which was always severly underforcasted for YEG should be getting a boost over 2008/09 to numbers much much higher as Port Alberta has gained some major supporters from Asia,the U.S and Europe (all I can say).Sometimes we need to look outside the box and we do it all the time,were arent trying to compete with YYC we are just trying to get YEG service we think it need's and if we earn a few unique items along the way then we cant complain about that...

[Edmonchuck]

Originally Posted by KrisYYC

Jesus christ man. YEG got it's own LHR flight and is doing well, but I guess they're ignoring you guys . What do you expect? A new overseas flight every 6 months?

I'm an industry insider, and an AC insider for years. (...)
I've never seen such a group of whiners in my life. It really makes you guys look bad. Even the Montrealers don't have such a sense of entitlement.



(...).

Ok Kris. You can say industry insider all you want, and I guess that makes me one too. I understand how the hub and spoke system works. I do. I also know more on the history of AC and YEG - especially in the Crown days.

I will admit that Edmonton is more at fault here. They did everything they could to piss off AC in the 70's. The Muni debate and some comments during the PWA Lougheed years didn't help either. I could agree then that there was a sense of entitlement.

Add to this the focus on competing with CAI out of YYC and that market being a bit overserved at the time, well, that basically forced some hands.

HOWEVER,

There are plenty of examples of AC not playing fair in Edmonton as well. Now, it isn't entitlement as much as it is recognition, and asking AC to not prevent other carriers from servicing Edmonton by hiding behind bi-laterals. One can understand the business model, and some protection, but their PR has stunk in some of the moves they've made.

Add to this a few industry functions I was at in the late 90's/early 00 where the AC rep basically came right out and said YEG service was not going to expand. Times have changed both economically and otherwise, but that attitude was pretty prevelant at the time.

I agree that the hub model AC has in Calgary will be their first thought, but there are bones other than FINALLY an LHR flight that is priced appropriately. The A340 route was a joke in pricing.

I could go on with this, and I don't really have a beef on the service per se (more how they treated CAI pilots and other staff post acquisition, combined with other political moves), but you cannot simply excuse the treatment of Edmonton solely on the hub/spoke model. AC really didn't call Calgary a hub until about 4 years ago anyway, and this issue is about 40 years in the making.

The service has improved as well as relations. AC will do what AC hasd invested in for years. Hence why I am an open skies proponent - healthy for both AC and for YEG.

As for a Calgarian NOT complaining about air service, I've seen it. Plus, let's mention health funding and Jack's whining about Capital Health getting more, Rod's whining about the U of A getting more than the U of C, Dinger's whining about Edmonton getting more attention....so, while in air service, the whining may not be as loud, trust me, in others, it is. I dare you to suggest that the HSR hub is in Edmonton. Dare you. Dare you to suggest moving Travel Alberta to Edmonton. Dare you. People in glass houses...

[vaportrail]

Originally Posted by tuffyy

...
We have strong marketing numbers and are currently in the final stages of a deal with a carrier to offer more international service abroad (all I can say), our transborder numbers are also set to increase in 2008 as we expect we will add more flights (all I can say).And cargo which was always severly underforcasted for YEG should be getting a boost over 2008/09 to numbers much much higher as Port Alberta has gained some major supporters from Asia,the U.S and Europe (all I can say).
...

Ohhhhh-aaaaaaaagh-mmmff. Oh, yeah! Oh, yeah, baby! That's the stuff.

Where's the kleenex ...

[tuffyy]

Got some of that kool-aid for that stuff^.

I will personally hand you one when you see what we have in store...

[LO 044]

Originally Posted by tuffyy

Got some of that kool-aid for that stuff^.

I will personally hand you one when you see what we have in store...

Tuffyy perhaps we will be handing you the kool-aid when we see what is in store. Keep up the good work and thanks for the updates and explanations.

[Coldrsx]

...eagerly awaiting...

[CanadianCentaur]

Originally Posted by KrisYYC

Great points. Funny how you mentioned Winnpegers not bitching about their perceived lack of service. Over at airliners.net a user from Winnipeg just started a thread complaining that the airlines are ignoring YWG

As a longtime member of a.net, I just noticed that! I thought that guy from Winnipeg wasn't posting in a.net anymore or got banned, and then BOOM - he shows up with a thread like that!

[Ponza]

Originally Posted by Edmonchuck

Ok Kris. You can say industry insider all you want, and I guess that makes me one too. I understand how the hub and spoke system works. I do. I also know more on the history of AC and YEG - especially in the Crown days.

I will admit that Edmonton is more at fault here. They did everything they could to piss off AC in the 70's. The Muni debate and some comments during the PWA Lougheed years didn't help either. I could agree then that there was a sense of entitlement.

Add to this the focus on competing with CAI out of YYC and that market being a bit overserved at the time, well, that basically forced some hands.

HOWEVER,

There are plenty of examples of AC not playing fair in Edmonton as well. Now, it isn't entitlement as much as it is recognition, and asking AC to not prevent other carriers from servicing Edmonton by hiding behind bi-laterals. One can understand the business model, and some protection, but their PR has stunk in some of the moves they've made.

Add to this a few industry functions I was at in the late 90's/early 00 where the AC rep basically came right out and said YEG service was not going to expand. Times have changed both economically and otherwise, but that attitude was pretty prevelant at the time.

I agree that the hub model AC has in Calgary will be their first thought, but there are bones other than FINALLY an LHR flight that is priced appropriately. The A340 route was a joke in pricing.

I could go on with this, and I don't really have a beef on the service per se (more how they treated CAI pilots and other staff post acquisition, combined with other political moves), but you cannot simply excuse the treatment of Edmonton solely on the hub/spoke model. AC really didn't call Calgary a hub until about 4 years ago anyway, and this issue is about 40 years in the making.

The service has improved as well as relations. AC will do what AC hasd invested in for years. Hence why I am an open skies proponent - healthy for both AC and for YEG.

As for a Calgarian NOT complaining about air service, I've seen it. Plus, let's mention health funding and Jack's whining about Capital Health getting more, Rod's whining about the U of A getting more than the U of C, Dinger's whining about Edmonton getting more attention....so, while in air service, the whining may not be as loud, trust me, in others, it is. I dare you to suggest that the HSR hub is in Edmonton. Dare you. Dare you to suggest moving Travel Alberta to Edmonton. Dare you. People in glass houses...

Great response to a childish comment. For an industry insider you should know that a hub and spoke system will not function nearly as well in a fully competitive market. Nobody in Edmonton would complain about AC if we were operating in a free market environment. What really burns me is when other carriers want to service YEG and they hide behind there monopoly position to prevent us from getting better service.

Nobody is saying that YEG should have the same service as YYC. To me it totally makes sense that YYC is the larger airport in AB given it being the gateway to the rockies and the HQ's in Calgary. You don't see Edmontonians complaining about WJ even though they provide better service out of YYC than YEG. Simple reason, they treat YEG with respect and don't do anything to try and hamper competition from other airlines. Not to mention they seem to provide direct service out of YEG as soon as the numbers justify.

You can rest assured that if the situation was reversed people in Calgary would complain twice as much as we do.

Give me open skies and let the cards fall where they may.

[KrisYYC]

Originally Posted by Ponza

Great response to a childish comment. For an industry insider you should know that a hub and spoke system will not function nearly as well in a fully competitive market. Nobody in Edmonton would complain about AC if we were operating in a free market environment. What really burns me is when other carriers want to service YEG and they hide behind there monopoly position to prevent us from getting better service.

Nobody is saying that YEG should have the same service as YYC. To me it totally makes sense that YYC is the larger airport in AB given it being the gateway to the rockies and the HQ's in Calgary. You don't see Edmontonians complaining about WJ even though they provide better service out of YYC than YEG. Simple reason, they treat YEG with respect and don't do anything to try and hamper competition from other airlines. Not to mention they seem to provide direct service out of YEG as soon as the numbers justify.

You can rest assured that if the situation was reversed people in Calgary would complain twice as much as we do.

Give me open skies and let the cards fall where they may.

How was my comment childish? How is AC not operating in a free market? There's no laws that say only AC can be the biggest, and that only AC can fly overseas etc. etc.

There is a law that forces AC to have french on every flight (no other carrier is required this) and the same law also forces AC to keep its HQ in Montreal. It's called the Air
Canada act.

How exactly does Westjet respect YEG more than AC does? Who is the larger carrier at YEG? AC.
Westjet may offer more point to point service from YEG and that's great. That's part of their business plan. AC's business plan is different. It doesn't mean they have a hate on for YEGers. Even then, you said Westjet flies when the numbers justify it. No kidding, so does AC. The LHR flight is proof of that.

How does AC try to stop competition other than lowering fares to compete? (which every business on the face of the earth does in a free market, it's called protecting market share)

AC does not hate YEG. They do not ignore YEG. Their business plan is different, and even with that AC will expand their presence at YEG. Just be patient

[Rocket252]

Just don't get it KrisYCC?

Too bad.

Edmonchuck's comments are bang on.