Lister Block | ? | 6 fl | Renovation

[raisethehammer]

I forgot to mention an overlooked point from yesterday...LIUNA saying they will SELL Lister.
I know it was in the context of them renovating it first and then selling it (I wonder why they'd want to do that when there's no money to be made in renovating this building?? hmmm), but Stinson now has his chance to come in and make an offer. Mancinelli said they would sell. Best news I've heard in years.

[SteelTown]

Seemed like this week started off as a major disappointment for this year but now at the end of this week it looks like the Lister Block will be restored and the School Board will stay in the downtown core. Just another great episode of Hamilton soap opera all full of drama.

[raisethehammer]

I'm not convinced about the school board yet. I've heard enough stupidity from some of those trustees that nothing would surprise me.
I still wish that they were using a little more height along Bay St (or whatever street that's supposed to be) but I digress. Overall, its' a neat looking project, assuming the two taller buildings actually get built, and not just the short stuff.

[screenplaying]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

Mancinelli said they would sell. Best news I've heard in years.

If you want some great beady-eyed Mancinelli and LIUNA video, CTV did a superb job here...

No Solidarity

He shows up 3 minutes in. It might help you figure out how D&M got the inflated asbestos/tax dollar clean-up for the Connaught.

Required viewing for LIUNA watchers.

[SteelTown]

LIUNA can within days get the renovations to start as Joe pretty much owns his own group of construction guys, a union. Then there's Hi Rise.

[screenplaying]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

LIUNA can within days get the renovations to start as Joe pretty much owns his own group of construction guys, a union. Then there's Hi Rise.

And he can just as well let it rot. My earlier Lucy/Joe comparison was meant to say that every timeline or number they ever throw out is wrong... don't hurt yourself putting a lot of stock into it. They're 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 artists.

Lister is one of the footballs that Hamilton Charlie is chasing. Lucy won't ever change her ways. Will Charlie?

[markbarbera]

Originally Posted by Goldfinger

The CR has sold a total of 89 out of 199 units (a failure) to date. When I went to look at units last year I was told there was a shortage of parking space and they only offer 1 spot for first come first served. There is not enough parking at the CR to provide at least one space per unit.

Having shopped the Toronto condo market before opting for a Hamilton home, I am quite familiar with parking provisions for condos in urban settings. The availabiltiy of parking spaces at condos is generally exactly the same as that offered at CR.

The level of units sold at CR have much more to do with the mismanagement of the project rather than interest or the number of parking spots available for sale. Protracted delays stretched from months to years, so a lot of the initial sales fell through. Had the development been managed properly from day one, then it would have been a completely different story. I don't know how current your numbers are on units sold as I have been told they are currently 80% occupied. Are you including the 'rent-to-own' units in your tally?

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

Having shopped the Toronto condo market before opting for a Hamilton home, I am quite familiar with parking provisions for condos in urban settings. The availabiltiy of parking spaces at condos is generally exactly the same as that offered at CR.

The level of units sold at CR have much more to do with the mismanagement of the project rather than interest or the number of parking spots available for sale. Protracted delays stretched from months to years, so a lot of the initial sales fell through. Had the development been managed properly from day one, then it would have been a completely different story. I don't know how current your numbers are on units sold as I have been told they are currently 80% occupied. Are you including the 'rent-to-own' units in your tally?

The 80% figure sounds pretty high to me given that:
- there is still a fair bit of print advertising for the condos
- a ton of units seem to be available on MLS
- any time you look at the building at night, most of the units seem to have no lights on
- a friend of mine purchased a large unit through a resale for what seems to be an extremely low price, even by Hamilton standards

The development may have been mismanaged and I have heard stories of shoddy workmanship, but all the same this building is probably still one of the nicest condo offerings in all of Hamilton and it certainly has received a lot of local exposure. Large delays are often to be expected with condo developments and are usually factored in by buyers in places like Toronto and Vancouver, and yet buildings generally still wind up completely full.

The bottom line to me is that this building should certainly have sold more units by now (especially given that they are probably selling for lower prices than what they were initially set at and given the fact that there really is little new condo supply in Hamilton), and it is a hint that there are not as many people itching to live in condos downtown as one may initially think.

[the dude]

Originally Posted by screenplaying

If you want some great beady-eyed Mancinelli and LIUNA video, CTV did a superb job here...

No Solidarity

He shows up 3 minutes in. It might help you figure out how D&M got the inflated asbestos/tax dollar clean-up for the Connaught.

Required viewing for LIUNA watchers.

ya, liuna scares the 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 outta me. if the city wants to do business with these thugs then they're kinda complicit i guess.

[raisethehammer]

yea, I too have heard that Chateau Royale has sold/rented a lot of units (80% or more).
They sales people were lousy (I saw one too) and some units are tiny.
They did repay their city loan back in less than a couple of years, even though they had 10 years to repay it.

[SteelTown]

The Lister truth? Depends on who's talking

Andrew Dreschel
The Hamilton Spectator
(Jan 14, 2008)

Tracking the latest twists and turns of the Lister Block saga is a bit like watching Rashomon, Akira Kurosawa's classic film about the many faces of truth.

In the film, four witnesses testify about a 🞵🞵🞵🞵 and murder in ancient Japan. Each version is different than the others, underlining how difficult it is to objectively nail down what actually has taken place.

In the same way, conflicting perceptions of what transpired before and after city council's decision to abort a deal to restore the heritage building have only contributed to the uncertainty and confusion surrounding an already labyrinthine story.

He said this, I said that. No, I said that, he said this. On and on it goes, like peeling back and plunging into different layers of reality.

Here's a sampling of what I mean.

In early December, city officials met with the developers to get a much-delayed update on the cost of the project and what it would mean to leasing rates for the city.

On the city side was Mayor Fred Eisenberger and one of his aides, city manager Glen Peace and finance manager Joe Rinaldo.

Carrying the ball for the developers was Joe Mancinelli of LIUNA and Warren Green of Hi-Rise.

Mancinelli remembers the city pressing them about the possibility of selling the Lister as it stands. Mancinelli distinctly recalls telling them it wasn't for sale pre-construction. Period.

Green has no recollection of that exchange at all.

Green does insist, however, that his side made it clear they wanted to renovate and sell the Lister to the city rather than leasing it because they knew construction costs would drive rental rates through the roof.

"Our prime offer was to sell the building at $25 million, with them using the $7 million (provincial grant) as a downpayment so they could carry the building for $23 a square foot," says Green.

Rinaldo recalls them putting forward that option but Eisenberger was adamant he had no interest in it.

"The mayor made it absolutely clear that we're not on for a purchase, we wanted to know what is the lease rate," Rinaldo said.

Eisenberger doesn't remember the developers particularly pushing the purchase option. But he does remember repeatedly asking for the leasing rates and being told they weren't available.

"I was shocked and surprised that they had nothing, absolutely nothing," said the mayor.

Green begs to differ. He recalls warning the rental rate was going to be well over $30 a square foot and saying there was no way the city could afford it.

That's why they were arguing that post-renovation purchasing made more economic sense.

Rinaldo has no memory of being told the rental rate was going to be in the high 30s.

But even if he was told, he says, it wouldn't mean anything unless it was on paper.

Flash forward to the meeting last week where council rejected paying $37 a square foot and then voted against asking the province to check the accuracy of the developers' numbers.

A number of councillors and reporters vividly recall Eisenberger and other members of council talking about the possibility of directing the $7-million provincial grant earmarked for Lister to other downtown redevelopment projects.

It was suggested Eisenberger could even raise the subject that night during a meeting with Finance MInister Dwight Duncan.

But the very next day the mayor was denying that council wanted to use the money for other purposes.

From where he's sitting, Mancinelli is convinced someone at the city is out to kill the Lister project, but he doesn't know who.

That's not Green's perception.

"I never got the impression that they were trying to deep six the deal, but I also never had the impression that Joe Rinaldo was overly enthusiastic about it," he says.

But Rinaldo is just awaiting direction.

He says he'll run the numbers any way council tells him to.

If council wants him to look at purchasing and using the $7 million from the province as a downpayment, he'll do it. And then he'll see if he can get the cost down even further.

Just give him the facts and he'll deal with them.

Problem is, in this story, facts are at best a moving target.

And, like truth, they can wear many faces.

[matt602]

My head hurts.

[raisethehammer]

Dreschel writing a piece on 'truth'. Now I've seen it all.

[flar]

That article is far more confusing than reality. The truth is obvious.

[markbarbera]

The obvious truth I gather from the article is that Andrew Dreschel hasn't a clue what the city is up to these days, probably since his usual 'anonymous sources' were shown the door in November 2006 and has not been able to make nice with the new mayor's office since.

Andrew Dreschel is obviously more and more on the outside as far as City Hall politics is concerned. Will the Spec notice and find a City Commentator with fresh connections, or will we continue to suffer through his random speculations?

[SteelTown]

Foundation wants Lister designated as heritage site

January 31, 2008
John Burman
The Hamilton Spectator; With files from Spectator wire services

The Heritage Canada Foundation has asked the Ontario government to designate Hamilton's Lister Block a provincial heritage site and begged city council to freeze any demolition.

Natalie Bull, the foundation's executive director, wrote Ontario Minister of Culture Aileen Carroll two weeks ago to say the building is in peril after city council pulled out of an expensive lease agreement that would have seen the 1920s-era building restored.

"The notion of demolishing the Lister Block and replicating its facade has resurfaced," said Bull.

The foundation is concerned because the City of Hamilton, meant to be a tenant of the redeveloped building, has balked at high lease costs.

"The property owner's intentions remain unclear," the foundation said in a statement yesterday.

Mayor Fred Eisenberger said this week the city and the Lister's owners are working toward "saving and restoring the Lister Block."

He said he expects the Labourers' International Union of America and Hi-Rise Developments will bring details and specifications to city staff in the next couple of weeks.

Joe Mancinelli, vice-president of LIUNA, said two weeks ago he believes the developers can come up with new options and considerations and still be able to meet the mid-March deadline to receive $7 million in provincial funding.

Bull told the minister the foundation has written the mayor and city council urging them to seek provincial designation for the Lister Block.

They've also asked to "freeze the demolition permit on the building."

Eisenberger said that, to the best of his knowledge, there has not been an application for a demolition permit for the Lister. The Heritage Foundation is a non-profit, non-government organization which promotes the preservation of Canada's historic buildings.

[DC83]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

Mayor Fred Eisenberger said this week the city and the Lister's owners are working toward "saving and restoring the Lister Block."

Man, I've been hearing this since I was a teenager. Let's stop "working toward" and start "working"!!!!

... broken record...

[realcity]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

The obvious truth I gather from the article is that Andrew Dreschel hasn't a clue what the city is up to these days, probably since his usual 'anonymous sources' were shown the door in November 2006 and has not been able to make nice with the new mayor's office since.

Andrew Dreschel is obviously more and more on the outside as far as City Hall politics is concerned. Will the Spec notice and find a City Commentator with fresh connections, or will we continue to suffer through his random speculations?

Interesting.... I hadn't thought about that. but I think you might be correct. Dreschel's days are numbered. He hasn't done anything to foster new sources. I remember once sending him emails about info I had re: a certain well know company/individual and he never replied. Not realizing we (us forumers here) are the next gen of 'sources'.

[flar]

Regardless of what happens to Lister, it's kind of a shame these two neighbouring buildings will be demolished:

[realcity]

I guess that's the problem with streetwalls. You can't NOT damage the neighbouring building. That's why these buildings need to be maintained.

Wait... my 1979 house needs new shingles, I guess I should tear down the building and ask taxpayers to build me a new house in Jerome Park.