YEG - Edmonton Int Airport - Page 61

Coldrsx · #**1201** Posted **Dec 8, 2007, 7:37 PM**

domestic is still going very very strong...which IMO is our most important number. I think of all the numbers this one has been the biggest surprise.

ok ERAA.....time to get a story out there in the journal about how in 12months you have 1,000,000 more people through you than this time last yr.

CMD UW · #**1202** Posted **Dec 8, 2007, 9:05 PM**

YEG, why are you so glorious??? We are achieving some good critical mass for passengers....now gimme some flights.

Edmonchuck · #**1203** Posted **Dec 9, 2007, 8:03 AM**

gimmie open skies, a demolished muni, and a Travel Alberta that gives a shit, you'll see more flights.

MalcolmTucker · #**1204** Posted **Dec 9, 2007, 6:09 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edmonchuck

gimmie open skies, a demolished muni, and a Travel Alberta that gives a shit, you'll see more flights.

Why would a demolished muni give more flights? Nothing of any significance can fly in there anyways?

CMD UW · #**1205** Posted **Dec 9, 2007, 6:43 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edmonchuck

gimmie open skies, a demolished muni, and a Travel Alberta that gives a shit, you'll see more flights.

I believe that open skies is thee hitch. The rest are relatively insignificant.

Edmonchuck · #**1206** Posted **Dec 10, 2007, 6:38 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyle_olsen

Why would a demolished muni give more flights? Nothing of any significance can fly in there anyways?

It removes the last bit of uncertainty.

As long as it exists in a form that can readily be ramped back up to 1979, the more risk new carriers have in this market.

What can fly in there? CRJ, EMB, etc...

I think that in 2007 the steadfast resolve of the ERAA as well as the city getting its act together has all but made this airport moot, but...

Edmonchuck · #**1207** Posted **Dec 10, 2007, 6:40 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by CMD UW

I believe that open skies is thee hitch. The rest are relatively insignificant.

Agreed

YYCguys · #**1208** Posted **Dec 10, 2007, 3:44 PM**

As somebody who flies in and out of the (Edmonton) International Airport quite frequently and has to travel copious amounts of time to get my hotel in DT Edmonton, I must say that if I had a choice of flying into the Muni, I would. What the International Airport needs is a rail link, or at least an express bus, courtesy of Edmonton Transit.

As most you know, Toronto has it's City Centre Airport as well as it's International Airport. The GTAA has restricted air travel into the CC Airport, much like Edmonton has, but at least they have a number of public transit options to get you from the nearest train station, etc to the Internation airport! So Edmonton Transit, what are you waiting for?!?!

Edmonchuck · #**1209** Posted **Dec 10, 2007, 4:00 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by YYCguys

So Edmonton Transit, what are you waiting for?!?!

The County and City of Leduc to get on board. Period. That's it.

Welcome to one of the many many many STUPID things that happen here and why we harp on the regional debate.

Coldrsx · #**1210** Posted **Dec 10, 2007, 4:02 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by YYCguys

As somebody who flies in and out of the (Edmonton) International Airport quite frequently and has to travel copious amounts of time to get my hotel in DT Edmonton, I must say that if I had a choice of flying into the Muni, I would.

copious amounts of time? 30min?

Edmonchuck · #**1211** Posted **Dec 10, 2007, 4:11 PM**

HAHA, yeah I saw that too.

Gee, I spend 30+ mins in a cab when I fly to YYZ and travel to DT, or Scarberia.

SEA to DT...30 mins on a good day, but if East Marginal's exit is SNAFU, then much longer.

Even YVR to DT is a long time.

YYC to DT in a cab...gee, funny I find it 20+ and if the Deathfoot/Memory Lane are SNAFU - longer.

So, are you talking $$$ due to distance? Then, the new zones make it one fare, and a pretty fair fare....

#**1212** Posted **Dec 10, 2007, 5:25 PM**

Edmonton feels like a long way due to the airport being out in Nisku, and then there not being a direct route to downtown. So even though it doesn't take longer than alot of cities, driving down Gateway, then down through the river valley and then up the other side creates a perception of a longer trip. I find it more tiring than most...however does it create a need for the CC Airport? Nope, just a want by a very small group of people.

MalcolmTucker · #**1213** Posted **Dec 10, 2007, 5:40 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edmonchuck

HAHA, yeah I saw that too.

Gee, I spend 30+ mins in a cab when I fly to YYZ and travel to DT, or Scarberia.

SEA to DT...30 mins on a good day, but if East Marginal's exit is SNAFU, then much longer.

Even YVR to DT is a long time.

YYC to DT in a cab...gee, funny I find it 20+ and if the Deathfoot/Memory Lane are SNAFU - longer.

So, are you talking $$$ due to distance? Then, the new zones make it one fare, and a pretty fair fare....

I think what we see here is more perception rather than reality as to the disincentive to use the international due to time from downtown.

What people are complaining about is a lack of options. Let me tell you, from YVR I can get to downtown Vancouver faster on public transit than if I run out the door and grab a cab from the international.

Perceptions are very hard to change - especially when Dorval, Pearson, YVR and YYC are all firmly within the urban foot print of their CMA.

You know, if the muni was opened to Dash 8s like the Toronto Island Airport, you would probably see a reasonable uptake into the muni without a comparable loss going into the international. If you have it whats the problem?

They serve different markets, and soon enough the muni is going to have an LRT station right on the boundary lands. If I flew into the muni, I wouldn't need to rent a car, or go in a cab to conduct business in downtown or the university.

IKAN104 · #**1214** Posted **Dec 10, 2007, 7:08 PM**

Are you trying to tell us what's best for Edmonton or what's best for you?

LO 044 · #**1215** Posted **Dec 10, 2007, 7:17 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by YYCguys

As somebody who flies in and out of the (Edmonton) International Airport quite frequently and has to travel copious amounts of time to get my hotel in DT Edmonton, I must say that if I had a choice of flying into the Muni, I would.

So honestly, what is the travel time in a cab from YYC to Downtown Calgary during peak and non-peak hours? Just curious.

The above statement also shows why we need to get rid of the muni. As long as even one runway exists, there will always be people asking "why not re-open the muni". It's time to put down the wounded old dog. The muni benefits few people outside of Edmonton. It does not benefit Edmontonians, in terms of air service, at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyle_olsen

and soon enough the muni is going to have an LRT station right on the boundary lands. If I flew into the muni, I wouldn't need to rent a car, or go in a cab to conduct business in downtown or the university.

The last station of the current NLRT study is to be where the curling club / old Arby's location is / was at the north end of Kingsway Mall. It has no direction after that although the station is angled to cross Princess Elizabeth Avenue and go straight into the two Muni runways. Let us hope this will actually be the death of the muni instead of its ressurection.

Edmonchuck · #**1216** Posted **Dec 10, 2007, 7:41 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyle_olsen

I think what we see here is more perception rather than reality as to the disincentive to use the international due to time from downtown.

What people are complaining about is a lack of options. Let me tell you, from YVR I can get to downtown Vancouver faster on public transit than if I run out the door and grab a cab from the international.

Ok, I know from experience that the bus service to DT Vancouver is in no way faster than a cab from YEG to TELUS Plaza., nor is it anywhere near as convenient. No......freaking.....way....in....hell. My WORST time is 31 mins, but I average 25. The only time that argument will ever hold water is when the Canada line is done.

You want a bus to YEG, ask Leduc County.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyle_olsen

You know, if the muni was opened to Dash 8s like the Toronto Island Airport, you would probably see a reasonable uptake into the muni without a comparable loss going into the international. If you have it whats the problem?

They serve different markets, and soon enough the muni is going to have an LRT station right on the boundary lands. If I flew into the muni, I wouldn't need to rent a car, or go in a cab to conduct business in downtown or the university.

2 points:

1. They DON'T serve different markets. They never have. They serve the same market - travellers to and from Edmonton. This bullshit delineation between the casual traveller and the international one is just that, bullshit. Multiple fields are viable when the economic demand is there. In Edmonton, it most certainly is not. Please don't bring that garbage "Chiacgo has one" or even Toronto Island, those markets don't even begin to compare to ours, their skies are way more crowded, passenger stats well far and beyond ours (Midway does more business than Alberta), and they have a bigger draw due to their economic and historic importance to their nations. Edmonton’s airport history clearly demonstrates that Dash 8’s at YXD severely impact YEG. Compound this with only one national full service airline and their demonstrated desire to continue with the mini-hub in Calgary, and your argument of different markets dies on the vine. Even when we had multiple airlines, those that served YXD only did so to transfer folks at YYC. I’m just too old and lived this reality just too long for anyone to even begin to convince me that the markets are “separate”.

2. The nLRT is not designed for, nor will it, serve YXD passengers. In fact, even in the LRT plans of 1968-73, there is nary a mention of an airport extension, but actual mentions of why NOT an airport extension, and plans to have LRT to YEG in the future. Plus, if I get the LRT out to the international, why in the sweet name of whatever you think is holy would I ever want to re-open the muni? Plus, the nLRT is nowhere near the YXD terminal, and it never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever was in any LRT plan.

yes, I'm grumpy, but in 40+ years, this debate has never changed....ever. The multiple market argument is as much bullshit in 1960 as it is in 2007.

MalcolmTucker · #**1217** Posted **Dec 10, 2007, 7:53 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by IKAN104

Are you trying to tell us what's best for Edmonton or what's best for you?

Well, if the city isn't going to force the muni to stop operations it should let the airport take advantage of the infrastructure it is building to serve it.

Instantly Edmonton would have an airport served by a world class LRT system, providing seamless transportation to the CBD, University, and stadiums. I am just saying the city shouldn't ignore the possibilities.

Also what is good for tourists and business travelers is good for business. For no dollar cost the city could improve the business climate.

The city shouldn't wait until 2052 to decide what to do with their airport. If the city needs another general aviation field for corporate and medivac flights it should start looking at securing rights to use Namao as a general aviation base. (Many airports are shared with military aviation, Winnipeg, Pittsburgh and Frankfurt for example) Namao is also closer than YEG practically bordering the Henday when it is done.

MalcolmTucker · #**1218** Posted **Dec 10, 2007, 8:07 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edmonchuck

Ok, I know from experience that the bus service to DT Vancouver is in no way faster than a cab from YEG to TELUS Plaza., nor is it anywhere near as convenient. No......freaking.....way....in....hell. My WORST time is 31 mins, but I average 25. The only time that argument will ever hold water is when the Canada line is done.

You want a bus to YEG, ask Leduc County.

2 points:

1. They DON'T serve different markets. They never have. They serve the same market - travellers to and from Edmonton. This bullshit delineation between the casual traveller and the international one is just that, bullshit. Multiple fields are viable when the economic demand is there. In Edmonton, it most certainly is not. Please don't bring that garbage "Chiacgo has one" or even Toronto Island, those markets don't even begin to compare to ours, their skies are way more crowded, passenger stats well far and beyond ours (Midway does more business than Alberta), and they have a bigger draw due to their economic and historic importance to their nations. Edmonton’s airport history clearly demonstrates that Dash 8’s at YXD severely impact YEG. Compound this with only one national full service airline and their demonstrated desire to continue with the mini-hub in Calgary, and your argument of different markets dies on the vine. Even when we had multiple airlines, those that served YXD only did so to transfer folks at YYC. I’m just too old and lived this reality just too long for anyone to even begin to convince me that the markets are “separate”.

2. The nLRT is not designed for, nor will it, serve YXD passengers. In fact, even in the LRT plans of 1968-73, there is nary a mention of an airport extension, but actual mentions of why NOT an airport extension, and plans to have LRT to YEG in the future. Plus, if I get the LRT out to the international, why in the sweet name of whatever you think is holy would I ever want to re-open the muni? Plus, the nLRT is nowhere near the YXD terminal, and it never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever was in any LRT plan.

yes, I'm grumpy, but in 40+ years, this debate has never changed....ever. The multiple market argument is as much bullshit in 1960 as it is in 2007.

LRT to YEG, now thats a pipe dream - even at $50 million a kilometer thats still a ridiculous expense.

YEG suffered just like everything in Alberta did when we went into a recession and then the government gutted the civil service. Correlation is not causation.

10 Dash 8 flights a day will not destroy year over year growth of a million passengers. If it does, high speed rail will do the same. Porter in Toronto only has four planes. Would four Dash 8s flying out of the muni kill the international? Give me a break!

High Speed Rail which by all indications it looks like Stelmach will run his election campaign on will have the same negative effects on a traffic basis. Preliminary plans do not have a stop at YEG but do have one at YYC. Think about what that will do.

My oh my, your experience coming in on Calgary Trail must have hit the most fortuitous times. I haven't experienced trips that rapid since the new ikea opened at Whitemud, thats not even talking about South Edmonton Common.

Now this is an interesting question, if the city closes the muni before 2052 ie breaking its lease, who can sue them and for how much?

#**1219** Posted **Dec 10, 2007, 8:55 PM**

This is an age old debate, that will not go away. Personally I know YEG is not the most ideal location...but really not to bad. What sucks about Edmonton is the ability to get from North to south, or Downtown to YEG, there is not good way.

Should the muni be opened for any scheduled flights? No. The demand is there for it, but not same demand that yells for more non stop service from Edmonton. If the Muni had flights to YYC, you would have people like myself using the flight scheduled there instead at YEG, and then flying to another desitination just due to the ease of getting to the city centre in Edmonton.

So...again. YEG doesn't not have good access to Downtown, but it is the best thing for downtown at the moment.

rapid_business · #**1220** Posted **Dec 10, 2007, 9:09 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyle_olsen

10 Dash 8 flights a day will not destroy year over year growth of a million passengers. If it does, high speed rail will do the same.

So with your argument, how could 10 Dash 8 flights a day support an LRT line stop (which is a large part of your argument)? It couldn't. An LRT stop could only happen if YEG shut down, and the Muni became the main airport. There is no traffic creation otherwise.

...Unless, you rip up the runways, and redevelop the muni....