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  #2261  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2007, 4:30 PM
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Originally Posted by SASKFTW View Post
Perhaps our criticisms are premature?
With a description like the one given 'square shape and red bricks' I think they need all the criticism we can give them. Perhaps they are just saying that to make the heritage society happy? Either that or they are single handedly planning on making the ugliest skyline in North America.
     
     
  #2262  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2007, 4:37 PM
jaysfan99 jaysfan99 is offline
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I think it all comes down to cost. They have always been cheap with design. I would much rather see a different developer do something in Saskatoon. I really hate what Remai is doing to our skyline.
The Radisson towers are tall, but don't look very nice. I have always imagined what a nice glass tower would look like at that location. Cost should not always be the main objective, and the city should have a say in the design.

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Originally Posted by swilley View Post
With a description like the one given 'square shape and red bricks' I think they need all the criticism we can give them. Perhaps they are just saying that to make the heritage society happy? Either that or they are single handedly planning on making the ugliest skyline in North America.
     
     
  #2263  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2007, 5:10 PM
richmond richmond is offline
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Cost?

I agree with the sentiment that a visually appealing downtown is needed but lets not fool anyone ... developer projects are all about maximizing profits. Aesthetics play some role as you can charge more for an attractive building but you do hit a point of diminishing returns.

Putting some money into looks can pay off, though. Last night I drove past Meridian's Murano (east of Clarence on 9th St). It used to be a mildly interesting modernist walk-up apartment building (see west of Clarence on Main St for the original version) but now it's been dressed up on the outside with some contemporary colours & materials, looks slick & Meridian can probably get a decent return on it.
     
     
  #2264  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2007, 4:51 AM
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hmm, my mother is on the heritage advisary commity, she says that the building most likely wont be nice, because the wont get enough return. but the building might not happen, because building and land prices are just going to go up.
     
     
  #2265  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2007, 2:27 PM
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hmm, my mother is on the heritage advisary commity, she says that the building most likely wont be nice, because the wont get enough return. but the building might not happen, because building and land prices are just going to go up.

Yes, it makes much more sense to build a condo when prices are going down and nobody is buying new condos. I guess we'll just have to wait for some kind of economic slow down/recession before we can get any construction going downtown. Too bad SK has never had that before.

Sarcasm directed at the lack of condos downtown, not at you, Jonitecture.
     
     
  #2266  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2007, 9:44 PM
shmakim shmakim is offline
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Originally Posted by swilley View Post
With a description like the one given 'square shape and red bricks' I think they need all the criticism we can give them.
HARR! Too true, although it looks like they're considering tearing down what looks like a house on Spadina for the sake of putting up a tower.
     
     
  #2267  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2007, 9:55 PM
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Sort of a state of the union address (sort of, not really)...

River Landing Work Winds Down

Written by Jim Mattern - 600 Action News-Local First
Wednesday, 28 November 2007

As the snow falls and the temperature drops, shovels and equipment are being put away for the winter as work on River Landing Phase one comes to a close.

Special Projects Manager Chris Dekker says he's pleased with the progress so far with the completion of Market Square in the Phase two area, and work completed on schedule on 19th Street. Dekker says final surfacing should be completed by the end of the month allowing 19th to reopen to traffic for the winter. He says tenders will be sent out looking for bids that will allow the city to complete the reconfiguration of the street with First Avenue.

Dekker says negotiations are continuing with Lake Placid for a sales agreement on the construction of the Urban Village concept at Phase One which includes a hotel...and Persephone Theatre should be ready for its first offering of the new season, Beauty and the Beast starting December 12th. He says while the theatre won't be finished, visitors will fall in love with the new 450 seat facility.

Found it here
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  #2268  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2007, 10:22 PM
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visitors will fall in love with the new 450 seat facility.
The Bess is a building to fall in love with. Not a grey box with a glass front.
     
     
  #2269  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2007, 7:20 AM
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The Bess is a building to fall in love with. Not a grey box with a glass front.
Architectural lighting will fix that





And just a random photo from October 22nd, 2006

     
     
  #2270  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2007, 8:14 AM
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More on aesthetics and value in response to a possible 15 story condo development adjacent to the historic St. Johns Cathedral on Spadina Crescent. On my way through the Calgary Construction thread I discovered a great article written by Josh White. In it, Josh highlights issues and concerns surrounding urban developments built within and/or adjacent to historic communities, or collections of historic buildings. The issues addressed within the article deserve Saskatoon's attention, given our city's level of experience with urban development,

How might citizens, planning committees, advisory boards respond to developers seeking approval for construction of a new building next to an old, established building? or seeking approval for the development of a new community adjacent to an old, established community?

Citizens and advisory groups must respond to new developments appropriately with an understanding of current design practices, but, also consideration of the value provided by past design principles...St. Johns Cathedral

Bold portions of the article relate nicely to the St Johns property proposal.

As Good as New?

TEXT Josh White

As Canadian cities rapidly intensify their historic urban cores, questions about the fit of new buildings in historic districts become increasingly relevant. Historicist buildings that seek to mimic old styles in order to "fit" into their surroundings highlight whether redeveloped urban neighbourhoods are becoming authentic expressions of our time. Nowhere is this issue more apparent than in Calgary's booming Beltline district, where several new developments have sparked heated debate about the merit of historicist design.

Beltline is an eclectic high-density mixed-use neighbourhood shaped by development from its 11-decade history. It stretches immediately south of the central business district, separated by the Canadian Pacific Railway line that originally helped Calgary emerge from the surrounding prairie. In the early 20th century, warehouses lined the tracks and served as the industrial heart of the city. Like many cities, in recent decades several of these red masonry warehouses have either disappeared or been converted into trendy residential lofts and office space. Nevertheless, the area right beside the tracks has been branded the "warehouse district" though the industrial nature of the area is a relic.

In the last several decades, outdated development policy and neglect led to decline, particularly around the warehouse district. However, over five years ago an energized group of community members came together, initiated a total overhaul of planning policy, and amalgamated three smaller neighbourhoods into one large district now known as the Beltline. This opened the floodgates to development and the results have been nothing short of astonishing. With a current population of about 17,000, well over 12,000 residential units are either currently under construction or are proposed. Beltline's population is expected to double in the next decade.

Unlike Calgary's previous boom in the late 1970s and early '80s, where many architectural jewels were lost to demolition, the preservation of historic structures is not at issue this time. The community has crafted innovative policies, including transfers of development rights and other measures, to ensure that historic resources remain intact. It is not a situation of development or heritage, but one of development and heritage. The pressing question has become, "How can we fit the new with the old?"

The same policy documents that have attracted development and preserved heritage are somewhat contradictory on how new buildings should respond to historic contexts. While the community pushed for language encouraging buildings to be "of their time," the City endorsed policies specific to the warehouse district calling for the use of "brick and masonry, in a colour palette that is representative of the warehouse era."

The first test of this policy was the Arriva, a three-tower condominium project in the midst of the warehouse district and on the same block as an early-20th-century sandstone school building. The towers are striking aqua green, the first rising 35 storeys. Architect Peter Burgener of BKDI Architects, along with the community's planning committee, pushed for a contemporary commercial podium to match the modern lines and materials of the tower above, but ran into a brick wall during negotiations with City administration. Burgener claims they were forced to conform to a brick and sandstone material palette to match the warehouse surroundings. The result is a base podium that has no relation to the modern tower above and is itself deception.

In a more extreme example, the Mount Royal Block on Calgary's trendy 17th Avenue caused often impassioned debate about historicism and the potential theming of the city. At the very heart of 17th Avenue, the Mount Royal Block was a 1911 Edwardian-style commercial building. Years of neglect and a crumbling foundation, however, necessitated the replacement of the structure.

The first proposal, a 20-storey ultra-contemporary tower, was resolutely rejected by the upscale Mount Royal community just south of 17th Avenue. It was said to be out of character and scale. The developer came back with a two-storey contemporary box detailed with glass and brick. This created a great deal of outrage, especially by those who wanted to recreate the architectural character of the 1911 building being demolished.

The developer responded to this strong opposition--which included an online petition--by contracting local architect Loren Simpson, well known for the restoration of historic buildings, to redesign the project. The result was a faux-Edwardian commercial building complete with red brick, copula and sculpted mock-sandstone cornices. The details of the building were "inspired" by the neighbouring 1912 Anderson Apartments, the historic Devenish Building, and Western Canada High School. The replacement of an Edwardian building with a thematic replica satisfied opponents.

Following the redesign, a clear divide emerged on either side of 17th Avenue, the border between the high-density, mixed-use and mixed-income Beltline district, and the tony John Olmsted-designed garden suburb of Mount Royal. Many in the heavily populated Beltline area were appalled by the historicist design. One Beltline resident likened the mock-historic building to stuffing your pet when it dies. The stance of Beltline was to seek a "heritage building of the future" with exemplary architecture representative of its time. The developer made it clear that they were catering to the desire of the Mount Royal community for heritage-inspired design rather than the cutting edge.

At the same time, several more high-rise residential towers were proposed with red brick "skirts" thrown around the base, despite the community association's planning committee opposing the crude superficiality of the podium design.

Growing frustration mounted in response to the outbreak of "red brick syndrome" and prompted the community association to take action. Beltline Communities of Victoria and Connaught launched its first Beltline Urban Forum in May of 2007. The forum brought in leading experts on the fit of buildings to historic districts, and included Bruce Kuwabara of Kuwabara Payne McKenna Blumberg Architects (KPMB) and Robert Lemon, architect and chair of the Vancouver Heritage Foundation. The forum addressed the question, "Should new buildings look like old ones?"

A clear consensus on faux-historic design emerged: don't build a warehouse-district theme park. Instead, a better response is to introduce compatible yet distinguishable buildings into historic contexts. This concept resonated with the community.

Lemon developed a list of the various aspects of fit criteria. That is, the various elements including local vernacular and style, built form, height, scale, outline, rhythm, pattern, fenestration, material and colour that need consideration when introducing a new structure into a heritage context. It was noted that in the Beltline, the tacking of brick on the podium level was prioritizing material and colour. According to Lemon, in most cases, material and colour are the least important aspects of fit.

Kuwabara cited several examples of his firm's buildings that met most if not all aspects of fit, but remained distinct as contemporary. Most striking is KPMB's "sugar cube" building in a historic district in Denver, which displays a distinctly modern vernacular while responding to its context through scale, rhythm, colour, datum lines and fenestration.

Lemon argued that a balance must be struck on the continuum between the compatible and distinguishable. In the case of buildings such as Mount Royal Block, no balance is achieved. Will the average person be able to tell what is real and what is fake in 20 years? The copycats themselves are not only dishonest and kitschy, but diminish the value of the authentic heritage resources. By creating a respectful contrast that reflects contemporary thinking in design, heritage buildings stand out as special.

Further, the predominance of heritage buildings in a district should have an influence on where a new building should fit on the continuum. In an area overwhelmed by buildings of a similar vernacular and scale, it is more important, according to Lemon, to pay attention to aspects of compatibility.

In Beltline's warehouse district, this is certainly not the situation. Despite the district's moniker, in reality, the majority of land is vacant or redevelopable. At build out, the balance of buildings will be new. According to Lemon, this makes a weak case for conforming strictly to the vernacular of remaining warehouses in the area.

Despite these few examples of historicism, much of what is going on in the neighbourhood is very encouraging. There are many examples of well-executed large-scale projects that will help transform the community into one of the most livable high-density urban communities in Canada. In Beltline, where practically every undeveloped parcel of land has been bought up for development, quality of the built form is paramount in ensuring this quality of life. Individual projects are thought of in relation to others and how they contribute to the whole, so that they become much more than simply the sum of their parts.

Policy demanding active pedestrian interfaces on all four sides of the building, human-scale elements at grade, floorplate size restrictions, and other urban design measures ensure a certain level of quality without being overly prescriptive. Seeking density, variety and quality are the primary principles. This has left the door wide open to innovation. In a young city with very few preconceived notions of the way things should be, urban communities like Beltline are fertile ground for innovation and new ideas.

The first Beltline Urban Forum successfully changed participants' thoughts about historicism and the direction of architecture in Calgary. No longer is the City forcing developers to conform to the prescriptive policies of the past. Other older districts, such as Inglewood, are looking to the Beltline Urban Forum consensus to craft policy about the fit of new developments within their neighbourhoods.

The second Beltline Urban Forum held in September 2007 examined the uses of alleyways in the community, but looked for effective ways to change laneways from garbage pick-up zones into places where people can live affordably, shop, and rediscover some of the city's forgotten spaces. All this makes Beltline and Calgary a place to watch in coming decades.

Other cities, faced with the temptation to employ shallow responses to revitalizing heritage districts, can learn from the mistakes made and the discussions occurring in Calgary. In order for a city to successfully redevelop an area while paying respect to its past, it is critical to create authentic 21st-century neighbourhoods that help shape their own character. It is important to remain true to the era in which the structures are being created while respectfully intermingling with the past. False podiums and faux-historic themed buildings do nothing but remove character from a place, the very character well-intentioned planning policies claim to protect.

Josh White is a community planner for Beltline Communities.

http://www.canadianarchitect.com/Issues/...id=59525143823&issue=11012007&PC=&RType=

Last edited by Ruckus; Nov 29, 2007 at 8:41 AM.
     
     
  #2271  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2007, 3:43 PM
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^Can someone please forward this to Remai Ventures.

"faux-historic themed buildings do nothing but remove character from a place"

How true.....
     
     
  #2272  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2007, 4:43 PM
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A tower with a contemporary design, clad mostly in glass, would do more to compliment St. John's than any square, red brick monstrosity. Imagine the reflections of the church spire in the glass facade of a slender (and curvy?) tower.
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  #2273  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2007, 4:51 PM
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I agree!!


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A tower with a contemporary design, clad mostly in glass, would do more to compliment St. John's than any square, red brick monstrosity. Imagine the reflections of the church spire in the glass facade of a slender (and curvy?) tower.
     
     
  #2274  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2007, 6:51 PM
shmakim shmakim is offline
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I agree!!
Heh, here's hoping. That article was a real shaker, but until everybody in this city reads it, you'll get a lot of kneejerk reaction to anything contrasting or progressive-looking next to the church, just cause everybody wants to keep the site "historically consistent". I like the (almost pejorative) term "historicist". I suppose it's that kind of thinking that's spawned the innumerable brown stone buildings in this city? The occasional comments on this board about that always crack me up.

I absolutely support the notion that buildings built in this century should look like they have been built in this century, but that's always been at odds with the respectful nod toward historical architecture that's sometimes right next door or across the street. Not being an architect in the slightest, I'm intrigued by all that architectural babble about how new buildings should have elements that fit with the surroundings, like rhythm, datum lines, and local vernacular.... um, what? I've seen that silly-looking Arriva tower in Calgary as a bad example, but I'm unclear what a good example would be. The Arriva tower looks like a modern tower that's burst out, Alien-style, of an existing brick building.

Remai, for their part, can probably keep things cheaper by using established, uncreative construction methods like red brick.... although I have to wonder if glass would be cheaper than brick. And it's ultimately seniors that are going to live there, yes? Will they have to be sold on a modern looking building?
     
     
  #2275  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2007, 8:38 PM
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I checked into possibly contacting Remai via an email (to send them the above article) and I could not find a website. This brought up a question I have; Can we expect anything remotely modern if the company does not even have a website? Ummm, perhaps all of their design work is still done with pencils?
     
     
  #2276  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2007, 8:44 PM
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Remai has a website. I'll sell it to you.

Screw it, here it is right here.

I can't imagine you having much impact, but it can't hurt to try.
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  #2277  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2007, 8:55 PM
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^Yikes. Looking at their rental properties on their website is not encouraging.. they are HORRID.

swilley, I definitely think sending them that article is worth a shot. Go for it!
P.S.- make them aware of this forum and all the dissenters on here.
Oh, if only the whole world just agreed with us SSPers!
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  #2278  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2007, 9:50 PM
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i agree they are horrible and i say sent the newspaper clipping. Miracles do sometimes happen.

and i got this newspaper clipping

Booming Saskatoon plans $220M on capital projects

Saskatoon's status as a boomtown is being reflected in the city government's new capital budget.

The city is planning to spend close to $220 million on capital projects in the next year, all of them prompted by the city's near-record growth.

Among the big-ticket items are a new bridge on the city's south side, a new $90-million police station and the servicing of hundreds of new residential lots.

City manager Phil Richards says the demand for residential lots has outstripped supply, and it's time to catch up.

"The growth is quite frankly phenomenal," Richards said. "We want it to continue. We don't want to be an impediment to that growth."

Richards said the other big projects are also related to growth. The city police force has added staff as the population has grown, and the current police station is bursting at the seams.

But the biggest single budget item is the south bridge. Richards said the bridge must be built soon to help handle increased traffic.

For Saskatoon taxpayers this all translates into a one per cent property tax hike for each of the next six years.
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  #2279  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2007, 1:48 AM
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I was just driving down Spadina, and I thought I saw a tower crane across the river up at Innovation Place? Can anyone confirm this? It looked pretty short...

BTW, thanks for the website link circle, I was hoping for more of a development page from them, not just a list of all their rental slums... Maybe I'll have to contact them via snail mail....
     
     
  #2280  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2007, 2:04 AM
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I'm sure alot of you caught this on TV, but on the CTV news at 6 there was a good news story about the continuing revitalization of Riversdale/20th St. and how there's new investment in the area, renewed interest, changing perceptions, etc.

The story also noted the sale (finally) of the Adilman Building. Apparently, the new owner wants to develop retail space on the ground floor and office space on the second. He also wants to open up a pub. You may have already heard that but it was news to me.

Also, the story touched on the possible sale of the Barry to the city. A reference was made that some councilors feel the building should be torn down in order to start fresh. I for one would be against the building's demolition.. I think it's an important part of Riversdale's and the city's heritage that should be kept and re-used somehow.
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