Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[The_Henry_Man]

^LOL....just beat me to it. Well, I think bored tunnel is the only possible way to go underneath the C-Line tunnel. I don't know how cut-and-cover can be done without damaging the structure of the C-Line tunnel.

I think with the M-Line Broadway-City Hall Station (they better use the same name!!!), A LOT of money can be saved for the extension project by utilizing and sharing with the same (and common) station entrances and mezzanine as the C-Line counterpart, but an extra corridor can be built to connect the platform of the M-Line part from the shared mezzanine.

[officedweller]

I think they would be able to excavate around the Canada Line tunnel. They can excavate and support entire buildings on stilts while excavating, so supporting the tunnel should be doable.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by mr.x2

there was an article in the Sun two years ago about how there was more crime within a 800-metre radius around SkyTrain stations.

but by then, we would have installed fare gates.

But you have to remember this: fare gates won't solve the problem with crime around the stations but only prevent fare envasions. Like you said, crime happens within 800 metre radius around SkyTrain stations: fare gates won't prevent crime happening outside of the stations. What we need is increase of policing around SkyTrain stations (something the Vancouver Police and RCMP have to organize).

Omg yeah the M-Line would have to be dug real deap =P

Edit: Just pulled this from Ctiy's Archives on the Junction of M-Line and C-Line at Broadway City-Hall Station...


M-Line Extension Original Doc.


Remember the M-Line will have to have at least have 80m platforms (with maybe an option to extned to 100m in the future). That means they will have to start digging deap from Ontario St. in order for the M-Line to be under the C-Line and have room for its long platform.


This is what will the SkyTrain stations look like (rough sketch obviously) if the M-Line was under W 10th.

[jlousa]

Just to clarify an above rebuttal, fare gates will reduce crime around stations, the fact there is higher crime around stations is due to criminals using the trains for free rides. If you conduct a study I bet you wouldn't find the same precentage of increased crime around bus stops.

[WBC]

Originally Posted by npinguy

Cut and cover along 10th?

No way. It'll get shot down by the local residents faster than the Canada line going down Arbutus.


Seriously COMPLETELY get rid of that idea because it's not happening. My parents live on 10th avenue close to Arbutus, and even though they would LOVE a skytrain stop near broadway&arbutus, most of the people in their co-op are HEAVILY against it.

Why? They think it'll bring crime. No joke. They think a skytrain station in the neighborhood would bring crime and they don't want that. With that kind of attitude being prevalent _AND_ a disruption to their commute being forced upon the residents? Cut and cover on 10th is right out.


Either you tunnel, or you dig up broadway, or you dig up another street (11th?)

I don't know that SkyTrain along 10th or even 16th is such a bad idea. Firstly, we have increased crime around sky train stations. Secondly, we have drug lords living in the mansions in the area (as witnessed by the latest bout of gang wars). Wouldn't those 2 things go hand in hand? I mean at least we would have drug lords using transit :-)

[officedweller]

They won't have the same problems with grades and long platforms on the M-Line - the route is relatively flat. It'll just cost more to excavate more soil.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by jlousa

Just to clarify an above rebuttal, fare gates will reduce crime around stations, the fact there is higher crime around stations is due to criminals using the trains for free rides. If you conduct a study I bet you wouldn't find the same precentage of increased crime around bus stops.

True you do limit those. But many of the criminals that haven't been caught aren't riding the system but are like around the SkyTrain stations just waiting for victims. That is what happened @ 29th Avenue Station: the woman that was riding the system came out walking home and finds herself attacked by a bunch of hopeless individuals riding their car around thinking it's fun doing so.

Note i do want a gated system. But I think that we should make sure there is enough security AROUND the stations as well.

[Canadian Mind]

woulsn't it infact also be cheaper because of the small amount of gradient change, even with longer platforms?

Also, I think all the M-line platforms should be designed to be extendable to 120 meters right off the bat, rather than just the ability to expand to 100 meters. some day we're going to need 120 meter trains, and it will be a right 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 to have to modify designs and dig up the road for a third time once the 100 meter extensions are put in and used up to capacity.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by Canadian Mind

woulsn't it infact also be cheaper because of the small amount of gradient change, even with longer platforms?

Also, I think all the M-line platforms should be designed to be extendable to 120 meters right off the bat, rather than just the ability to expand to 100 meters. some day we're going to need 120 meter trains, and it will be a right 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 to have to modify designs and dig up the road for a third time once the 100 meter extensions are put in and used up to capacity.

i'm not sure if our skytrain system can acutally handle that. According to my knowledge, Expo Line stations are 80m platforms that are expandable to 100m. I'm not sure if that's the case with the M-Line stations. But let's say if the M-Line stations are designed to be expandable to 120m (which I dont' think that's the case) and the Evergreen Line becomes a SkyTrain (rather than a LRT) that is expandable to 120m, then we can build the 120m platforms on the Western Extension and have longer trains running from Coquitlam to UBC but not UBC to Downtown (via Columbia).

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by deasine

But you have to remember this: fare gates won't solve the problem with crime around the stations but only prevent fare envasions. Like you said, crime happens within 800 metre radius around SkyTrain stations: fare gates won't prevent crime happening outside of the stations. What we need is increase of policing around SkyTrain stations (something the Vancouver Police and RCMP have to organize).

To an extent, fare gates will overall reduce crime and will nearly deplete fare evasion. It's like a Brita water filter , it eliminates access to some types of criminals.


The grade along 10th and Broadway isn't as steep as the Cambie rise and fall, so like officedweller said it does eliminate some problems associated with the Canada Line.

[agrant]

Originally Posted by mr.x2

there was an article in the Sun two years ago about how there was more crime within a 800-metre radius around SkyTrain stations.

but by then, we would have installed fare gates.

There was a blurb on the news about fare gates. If I heard correctly, we'll have them in the new year sometime.

[mr.x]

...which also means a smart card/distance based fare system.

*jumps on bed*

[Stingray2004]

Originally Posted by jlousa

Just to clarify an above rebuttal, fare gates will reduce crime around stations, the fact there is higher crime around stations is due to criminals using the trains for free rides. If you conduct a study I bet you wouldn't find the same precentage of increased crime around bus stops.

To further expand on that issue, BC MoT Minister Falcon was on BCTV Global this evening announcing that all Skytrain stations will have a... well... something akin to a turnstyle for all passengers entering Skytrain platforms.

Interesting stats vis-a-vis a similar transformation on a (?) similar European conversion:

1. Fare evasion reduced from 20% to 2%;

2. Fare evaders caused 60% of crime;

3. As a result of increased perception of security, ridership increased by 30%

You just can't argue with those stats.

[officedweller]

Yeah, the stats were for Amsterdam.

[fever]

just to clarify this... iirc, existing m-line stations are all 60 m long? expo-line stations are 80 m and could be extended to 100 m without realigning the guideway?

[officedweller]

M-Line stations are 80m as far as I know.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by fever

just to clarify this... iirc, existing m-line stations are all 60 m long? expo-line stations are 80 m and could be extended to 100 m without realigning the guideway?

u can see that expo line stations can be extended to 100 m: look at 29th Avenue Station: soo much room to extend the platform Eastwards.

Metrotown station is also extending their platforms =)

[mr.x]

^ i remember that too...is Metrotown extending their platforms by 10 metres or 20 metres? i forgot what the diagrams i posted said.

[officedweller]

When the Expo Line stations were built, the guideway was built to allow expansion of platform length to accommodate 8-car MKI trains - i.e. (8 x 12.7m = 101.6 m).

The M-Line west materials http://vancouver.ca/engsvcs/transport/rto/pdf/beyondthebline.pdf
mention the 80m length:

Stations - Station amenities, information systems, ticketing, and security are
assumed to be consistent with the Phase I design of the SkyTrain extension.
Stations are designed to accommodate either Mk I or Mk II vehicles.
Single center platforms are assumed, with a 9m to 10m width and 80m length.
Station entries for all stations would be coordinated with both existing and
planned development. Given the importance of connections to local bus
service, and in particular the Broadway Rapid Bus to UBC, particular attention
will need to be paid to providing the most direct path possible between
the SkyTrain entry and the Rapid Bus stop.

Operations - The SkyTrain alternative would operate as an extension of the
line from Lougheed Mall to VCC (north). Trains would stop at all stations,
with train lengths determined by ridership demand. The maximum train
length would be 5 Mk II vehicles, which represents a total capacity of
approximately 650 passengers. Headways as close as 90 seconds can be operated;
however, considerations such as ridership east of the Broadway Station
and the configuration of a Cambie Station if a north-south Cambie
SkyTrain line is implemented will be key determinants of the frequency of
service.

Vehicles - Initial operations assume use of the SkyTrain Mk II vehicles,
which are 17.5m in length. Mk I (12.5m) vehicles could also be used in the
corridor. Future orders could result in vehicles of greater length, although
the working assumption is that any future vehicles would need to function
within the constraints of the 80m platforms, as is the case throughout the
system.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by mr.x2

^ i remember that too...is Metrotown extending their platforms by 10 metres or 20 metres? i forgot what the diagrams i posted said.

i don't think it specifically said..."the exisiting station is planned to accomdate 20 m platform extension.blablabalbalbalbalba. An extension to the existing platform will improve passenger flow blablablablaba" I would say they are planning to extend 20.