Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[deasine]

It's not a waste of money... bleh this guy is screwed in the head. Get him to take the 99 B-Line and the 9 Broadway bus and the 44 bus every single day. He'll change his mind then.

I think M-Line extension and rapid transit improvements in South of Fraser is necessary for this region.

[djh]

It does raise one interesting and potentially controversial issue though: if the Canada Line's 19km cost $2 billion, how much would the VCC-UBC run cost? And when that number is released, what would the public reaction be?

I read this story in 24hours today and it had the usual "man-on-the-street" responses. Almost every single one of them was opposed to the extension, citing stupidities such as "we have too much expense on our plate now, with the Olympics" and "th 99 bus is fine, just add a couple more". Is that what the average person really thinks?! So I can really see people being shocked when they hear the estimated cost.

[MistyMountainHop]

As Mayor of Burnaby Corrigan doesn't really have the right to complain about transit access. Burnaby is already well served by two SkyTrain lines. Cities like Surrey haven't planned their cities to encourage transit use. Broadway is a bigger priority.

[vanhattan]

Originally Posted by deasine

It's not a waste of money... bleh this guy is screwed in the head. Get him to take the 99 B-Line and the 9 Broadway bus and the 44 bus every single day. He'll change his mind.

I could not agree more. The M line should have been built years ago. I used to take the bus via the 99B, 17 or 44. This year I just gave up standing in line in the rain while I got passed up in the am at Granville and Broad by 2-3 busses every morning. When I was able to sqeeze on a bus, it was standing room only, not occasionally, but EVERY DAY.

I am getting up in years and I decided I didn't need this 🞵🞵🞵🞵 anymore. Now I am back in my big, black Mercedes and drive to UBC everyday. Just the opposite of what city planners say they want.

I will not get back on the bus until they expand capacity enough to where I don't get passed up every morning and when I can actually sit down on at least some of my trips. The current over capacity situation is absolutely stupid. I just don't believe that Translink , the province or the city really care about the bus passenger.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by djh

It does raise one interesting and potentially controversial issue though: if the Canada Line's 19km cost $2 billion, how much would the VCC-UBC run cost? And when that number is released, what would the public reaction be?

I read this story in 24hours today and it had the usual "man-on-the-street" responses. Almost every single one of them was opposed to the extension, citing stupidities such as "we have too much expense on our plate now, with the Olympics" and "th 99 bus is fine, just add a couple more". Is that what the average person really thinks?! So I can really see people being shocked when they hear the estimated cost.

IMO, commentary on 24 Hours should not be taken seriously. They take everything negatively....not to mention they're quite left wing. They hate Sullivan.


With regards to costs, I'd say $1.5 billion for about 11 kms to UBC?

The Canada Line cost $2 billion and about 9-10 kms of the 19.5 km line is tunnel - including 8 underground stations. The UBC line will have about 9 underground stations (Main, Cambie, Oak, Granville, Arbutus, Macdonald, Alma, Sasamat, UBC) plus one elevated station (Finning/Great Northern Way Campus). Add in the higher cost of stations (since there will be 80-metre platforms and station entrances will be located 100 metres away from Broadway - requiring a long ramp/escalator, etc.).

Is it worth it? What does "150,000 passengers per day" tell you?

[squeezied]

im assuming that it'll be extended to arbutus first, so that'll be a substantial cost reduction opposed to extending to ubc, which, i believe, would be a very sound investiment for the time being.

[twoNeurons]

I doubt it will be buried past MacDonald. There's no need.

[The_Henry_Man]

Originally Posted by tintinium

I doubt it will be buried past MacDonald. There's no need.

Is there EVEN enough room to build a tunnel portal if decision is to be made to go from underground to elevated around McDonald? Kitsilano and West Point Grey are absolutely notorious for extremely narrow roads. The only place where a tunnel portal can be built is just west of Blanca and W.10th, at the centre of the road. I envision an underground route all the way to Blanca and W.10th . Just west of that it's at-grade or in a shallow trench (possibility to save some money?) and then head back underground as soon you hit University Village.

Another question: Would boring be required for the section where the line would have to pass under the shallow C-Line tunnel at W.10th and Cambie?

[mr.x]

It's way too narrow along 10th and even along Broadway for elevated or at-grade, nevermind a tunnel portal....you could do it on 10th IF you plan to knock down a whole city block of homes and then cut down 30 to 40-metre tall trees on both sides of the road for a 15 block stretch, and then build a guideway on people's front lawns [sarcasm]. These are nothing like those tiny 15-foot trees that Cambie NIMBY's were complaining about.

Don't forget the steep grades west of Alma - which will most likely require bored tunneling. I live in the area so I do know what is and what's not possible.

[deasine]

And good luck convincing residents of the West side to wake up every morning seeing a grey concrete guideway flying in the sky in the front of their house.

I just say tunnel it all until Pacific Spirit Park, have at-grade, then do cut-cover tunnel to UBC.

[officedweller]

The City of Vancouver would never allow an elevated guideway (the only place an elevated guideway would even be technically possible would be along 16th Ave. west of MacDonald).

I could see cut and cover all the way along 10th Ave to UBC but a couple of issues arise:
=> cut and cover would have a detrimental impact on the businesses along 10th Ave near the UBC gates - BUT those businesses would benefit greatly in the long term if there's a station at (say) Sasamat;
=> the escarpment grade along 10th Ave. seems more manageable for cut and cover than the grade on 16th Ave.;
=> where could you transition to an elevated line once you hit the UEL?

Once you get past Blanca you leave the City of Vancouver and enter Electoral Area B (I think it's "B") - which is governed by the Province - so I could see elevated on the UEL. But the 10th Ave. corridor doesn't provide an easy asthetic elevated option once you pass the UBC gates (although future Musqueum development on the University Golf Course lands could be well served by a station). I could see it underground all the way into the UEL.
Alternatively, you could divert the line to 16th Ave. and elevate the guideway there (either in the middle or along the side of the roadway - it would serve the university's development projects out that way and provide a second stop on campus - but where could you divert the line to 16th (west of the escarpment) without boring?
The only option would be to cut and cover to past Blanca and then have a portal somewhere near the edges of the University Golf Course to divert to 16th Ave. - but my guess is that the Musqueum would want a station near their newly acquired lands - maybe they would allow an elevated line through lands that are currently golf course so as to avoid the built-up areas along University Blvd in approaching the bus loop.
Anyone think they'd ever allow an elevated line to take over East Mall south of the bus loop?

Global Air Photo for reference:

[npinguy]

Cut and cover along 10th?

No way. It'll get shot down by the local residents faster than the Canada line going down Arbutus.


Seriously COMPLETELY get rid of that idea because it's not happening. My parents live on 10th avenue close to Arbutus, and even though they would LOVE a skytrain stop near broadway&arbutus, most of the people in their co-op are HEAVILY against it.

Why? They think it'll bring crime. No joke. They think a skytrain station in the neighborhood would bring crime and they don't want that. With that kind of attitude being prevalent _AND_ a disruption to their commute being forced upon the residents? Cut and cover on 10th is right out.


Either you tunnel, or you dig up broadway, or you dig up another street (11th?)

[djh]

@officedweller:
"Once you get past Blanca you leave the City of Vancouver and enter Electoral Area B (I think it's "B") - which is governed by the Province - so I could see elevated on the UEL."

So I guess that gives Translink some leverage in persuading the Province to pay for that part of the line (i.e., pay for all of the work west Blanca)?

@npiguy
"Either you tunnel, or you dig up broadway, or you dig up another street (11th?)"

Isn't that the textbook definition of NIMBY behaviour? Why would they think it's not OK to dig up their street, but OK to dig up their neighbour's street? Funny, NIMBYism.
Either way 10th is the best solution. It only affects a *very small* number of residents until you get to Dunbar village (who I would feel sorry for), and even then, most people will still be able to get in and out of their houses via the laneways.

Tunnelling would be great. Couldn't the existing Canada Line borer be used (I think Mr. X is the expert on that as he's mentioned it before)? But since the machine is built, wouldn't that save a huge amount of money?

[mr.x]

^ if the Evergreen Line isn't built along the proposed northwest route which requires bored tunneling and instead goes along the southeast route, the Canada Line tunnel boring machine will be free to use for the Broadway extension.


Building an extension along 16th is out of the question....the NIMBY's wouldn't have it and it's in the middle of nowhere. It has to be either under Broadway or under 10th.

[Hot Rod]

build it under 10th and use the TBM or cut and cover, whichever method is fastest and cheapest!!

I suspect cut and cover is the preferred method, since it is cheaper. Perhaps there could be sections where the TBM would be useful, the remainder being cut and cover.

Nevertheless, I wish/hope we could get the planning and funding for this in place so that construction could begin in time to potentially use the TBM. We need to get this done, we're already significantly behind (with regard to mass transit) in Vancouver compared to other world cities.

Wanna make a REAL difference in the region, getting people OUT of their cars - build the M-Line extension to UBC then; this isn't rocket science.

[agrant]

I'm thinking a cut and cover along Broadway would create another Cambie village problem, multiplied by ten, not to mention it is a major commuting route. Tenth Ave would upset the residents along there. I'm all for boring the whole thing. Seems like way less disruption. How much more would that cost? Anyone?

As for the crime around the stations... I think that is something that can and should be improved. Is there some data showing crime is more prevalent around stations? Obviously, having little security or surveillance will invite a little more of that kind of activity.

[mr.x]

build it under 10th and use the TBM or cut and cover, whichever method is fastest and cheapest!!

we used the "fastest and cheapest" method for the Canada Line and we got 50-metre platforms....plus a ghost town. i want to see this line built the right way, the European way.

As for the crime around the stations... I think that is something that can and should be improved. Is there some data showing crime is more prevalent around stations? Obviously, having little security or surveillance will invite a little more of that kind of activity.

there was an article in the Sun two years ago about how there was more crime within a 800-metre radius around SkyTrain stations.

but by then, we would have installed fare gates.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by djh

@officedweller:
"Once you get past Blanca you leave the City of Vancouver and enter Electoral Area B (I think it's "B") - which is governed by the Province - so I could see elevated on the UEL."

So I guess that gives Translink some leverage in persuading the Province to pay for that part of the line (i.e., pay for all of the work west Blanca)?

Hmm. Well, Electoral Area B is still part of GVRD / Metro and hence part of GVTA / SCBCTA - so probably no justification for a separate contribution.

Originally Posted by agrant

I'm thinking a cut and cover along Broadway would create another Cambie village problem, multiplied by ten, not to mention it is a major commuting route.

I think there are way too many utilities under Broadway to cut and cover on Broadway.

Originally Posted by mr.x2

we used the "fastest and cheapest" method for the Canada Line and we got 50-metre platforms....plus a ghost town. i want to see this line built the right way, the European way.

Not at-grade!

+++++++++++++++

Refresher - link to the City's previous M-Line extension reports:

http://vancouver.ca/engsvcs/transport/rto/millennium_extension.htm

See the Phase II Study report for maps etc.

More background info:

http://vancouver.ca/engsvcs/transport/rto/millennium_extension_bg.htm

This bulletin explains the suggested 10th Ave. allignment, which provides more accessible stations - like Broadway City Hall Station - basically one long ramp to the mezzanine level then stairs/escalators down to the platform. Note how it also "suggests" that the tunnels would be bored and stations "mined".

http://vancouver.ca/engsvcs/transport/rto/pdf/infosheet1.pdf

On the FAQs, the stations are decsribed as cut and cover:

Why is SkyTrain under 10th Avenue?

Tenth Avenue was selected as the preferred alignment for SkyTrain underground from Kingsway west for several reasons:

Tenth Avenue is at a slightly higher elevation than Broadway. This means that stations under the surface of 10th will be nearer the elevation of Broadway than if the same platforms were under Broadway. This gives a benefit of easier access and allows the distance from the station concourse to Broadway to be covered by a gentle ramp rather than stairs and escalators. A related advantage is that stations can be designed such that passengers are not required to double-back as they enter and exit the station.

There are no major utilities under 10th. This makes construction much easier, more economical and less disruptive than it would be on 8th, which has a major sewer line, or Broadway which has many utilities.

While the SkyTrain tunnel would be excavated using a tunnel boring machine that would not disturb the surface, station construction would be done using the cut-and-cover method. This necessitates large excavations at station locations and it is desirable to keep these on a lightly trafficked street, such as 10th, rather than disrupt a major arterial like Broadway.

Building underground transit lines slightly off the primary arterial that they serve is not uncommon. For example, the Yonge and Bloor-Danforth subway lines in Toronto are just off their namesake streets for much of their length.

[fever]

From the GVRD/Metro Vancouver website:

Electoral Area A
Electoral Area A is made up of the following unincorporated areas:

- the west side of Pitt Lake
- the northern portion of Indian Arm
- a portion of land between the District of West Vancouver and the Squamish-Lillooet Regional District (excluding the Village of Lions Bay)
- the islands of Bowyer, Passage and Barnston
- the University Endowment Lands (including Pacific Spirit Regional Park)
- the University of British Columbia
----------------------------------------------------------
I'm also wondering where the suggestion of 16th Ave came up. It would be a bit of a detour, and it would likely face more opposition than 10th Ave.

Cut and cover under 10th Ave looks like the way to go especially until Arbutus. There are a few tall trees along 10th near the hospital, but that's about it. I hope they can avoid having to go under and back up to get to the eastbound platform

[officedweller]

Thanks.
I think 16th is only mentioned because of the boulevard west of MacDonald.

Stacked tunnels under 10th would allow "scissored" ramps to access each platform without any stairs or escalators at all. That wouldn't apply to a station at Granville or any others further west, since the difference in elevation between 10th and Broadway disappears by then.

Just occurred to me that the M-Line would have to pass under the Canada Line at Cambie. That's pretty deep. I suppose it could be cut and covered. The knock-out panel from Broadway-City Hall station is at the west end of the mezzanine - a passage would connect south to 10th Ave (under the roadway) and then down to the platforms. Rough schematic below - note platform depicted would be deep below Canada Line ROW not at the level shown. Alternatively, I suppose they could connect from the east side of the mezzanine if necessary (i.e. more space for a station house on the City-owned land to the east).