Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by squeezied

ah, that would make sense. the 91 b-line will be greatly needed as it will take some load off from the 99 b-line during peak hours until the mil-line ext gets built.

well actually come to think of it, why do so many people put up with the crowding and passing full buses on broadway when there are other routes like the 84 and 43 express buses? i couldn't imagine the 99 being considerably that much faster, but then again, i've never taken any of the three buses during mornig peek periods. so then, will the 91 alleviate some of the load the 99 is currently facing? isn't the 91 essentially like the 43 during peek periods? if there really is demand on 41st ave, wouldn't more 43's be supplied? well one question will lead to another, so i'll stop there.

It's simple really... the 99 is still more convenient for most people.

Of course M-Line passengers probably take the Express from VCC, but people who live on or near broadway street simply weigh the costs of having to get another bus to 41st or down to find the 84. The time savings are simply not enough to justify even waiting two buses... That and the fact that people just plain hate transfers.

Considering 99s come almost as frequent as skytrains do, it's not that bad.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by clooless

20 MINUTES? I was sure I read that the frequency would be no less than 10 minutes. 20 minutes is flat out ridiculous. It's bad enough that C-Train frequency in Calgary is every 15 minutes after 10 PM, and bus and train schedules do not mesh at all.

Exactly. Late night is probably past 10 pm: frequency of 10 minutes in Vancouver and every 20 minutes along the spur lines in Richmond and the airport.

Even on the Millennium Line, the late-night frequency is every 8 minutes.

The Canada Line's schedule is too infrequent, hopefully it's something they can change.

[SFUVancouver]

^ There is no express bus from Commercial Drive to UBC. They discontinued that last year in order to put more regular 99s into operation.

I saw one of the new 60 ft articulated New Flyer buses today in testing that uses the new livery and rounded front end.

As for why some people don't use the 25, 41, 43, or 49 buses? They're full too.

[CrooklynDodger]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

^ There is no express bus from Commercial Drive to UBC. They discontinued that last year in order to put more regular 99s into operation.

I saw one of the new 60 ft articulated New Flyer buses today in testing that uses the new livery and rounded front end.

As for why some people don't use the 25, 41, 43, or 49 buses? They're full too.

Not the 84 though, thats the best kept secret. Usually its sit-downable, and as of this new service year it runs every 8 minutes during peak.

And BTW, what was this protest I heard of at UBC against a new plaza and a bus tunnel? What sort of anti-everything nihilist would be against it. It seems sadly too many University students are protesting just to protest.


Back to the M-line, they should integrate it fully with the new line to Coquitlam. A full package deal, from Cambie metro to wherever it ends in Coq. This way everyone will be happy and both new lines can be "melded into one". This of course means they would have to use SkyTrain .

Train Bus can connect Cambie to the west, thus keeping the 99Bline. The M line could always be exteded to Granville, Arbutus and Macdonald slowly year by year after. I don't support metro to the UBC. Too expensive, will only serve a small segment of the population, and will be of little use during holidays, summer, winter break ETC.

Another idea I have is WestCoast Express to take a much larger role. It could be in a position to run express coaches from Braid to Abbotsford, Park Royal to Whistler, Coquitlam to Mission.

Something along these lines

R1 Braid to Abbotsford via Canada1 with limited service into Chilliwack $6.50 for AB and $10 for CW
R2 Coq STN to Mission with limited Service to Harrisson Via BC7 $6.50 for M and $10 for H
R3 Park Royal to Whistler via BC99 for $25

R would mean Regional in the scope of things, these buses have authority to travel outside of MetroVan since they aren't "City Buses" (see WCE TrainBus). The intent of the Regional lines would be to make a profit. They should run every 1-2.5 hrs from 0800-2300 or as demand requires, The profit of these R lines could be put towards Metro buses. R Bus fare would NOT be transferable to other Translink service.

Good idea???

[j4893k]

Originally Posted by CrooklynDodger

And BTW, what was this protest I heard of at UBC against a new plaza and a bus tunnel? What sort of anti-everything nihilist would be against it. It seems sadly too many University students are protesting just to protest.

If you're unaware of the situation, here's a link to a good (and lengthy) read about the issue.

http://ubcinsiders.blogspot.com/2007/01/issue-of-day-university-boulevard.html

I believe this is the latest prject info but correct me if im wrong.

[Jared]

If you read the comments posted after the article, there is a very long detailed one explaining all the flaws with this plan. It's a good read.

The University Boulevard competition/design thing is a total mess. I'm not against something being done with that area, but I wish it wasn't this.

As for the knoll, it's a great place to hang out with friends between classes/study/eat lunch etc. I'd like any future plans to accomodate it.

[fever]

The whole university boulevard process should start again from scratch. I'm sure the forumers who have been around long enough all remember how bad the options looked, even if A was better by a fair margin. At this point, it would probably be best to can the underground bus loop and rebuild the old bus loop and the intersection of East Mall and University as an enclosed square with a couple stores...

btw, if it's not obvious from his comments Darren knows what he's talking about. He's been involved for at least five years (and probably longer), when he was a TA of mine the first time. Universities are typically full of temporary residents...

[Lee_Haber8]

Originally Posted by mr.x2

It would be extremely expensive to extend the stations beyond 50 metres:

- expensive tunnel fans are located on both ends of each underground station, these fans would have to be relocated.
- there may be curves/dips before and after the 50 metre stations
- it will be difficult and extremely expensive to extend Bridgeport Station because of the flyover and track switches on both ends of the station.

You have to remember that the Canada Line 41-metre trains carry 334 persons which is equivalent to a 4-car Mark I train. With the 50-metre extension and an additional 10-metre middle car to to the 41-metre articulated paired trains, the capacity will be about 400 persons which is equivalent to a 5-car Mark I train.

And the proposed frequency isn't at all frequent like SkyTrain. For most of the day and peak hours, trains will be running every 3-4 minutes in Vancouver and every 6-8 minutes in Richmond and YVR. Late evening, it'll be 10 minutes in Vancouver and 20 minutes in Richmond and YVR. That's definitely not frequent.

And I wonder if the 250-metre single tracked guideways at the ends of YVR and Richmond will have any affect on frequency. Could we go up to every 60 secs in Vancouver and every 2 minutes in Richmond/YVR like SkyTrain?

I'm sure it won't be long till peak frequency is every 1.5 minutes and late evening will be at least every 5 minutes in Vancouver.

[twoNeurons]

I think what is most disappointing to me about the frequency is the perception that from the view of joe public.

The one advantage of lower frequency is perception.

Fuller trains give a perception that the trains are being well-used and the money wasn't wasted. Which, indeed they will be.

However, I think it is in danger of being overshadowed by the fact that at those frequencies, it is less reliable. Anything more than 10 minutes and people need to check schedules. Many people are too lazy to check schedules and will just drive.

I think the managing company is just being cautious at this point and is trying to make sure the system, from day 1, runs efficiently. After all, this will affect their profits, right?

That is the trade-off of a P3 system. You are basically a slave to profitability. If it's not profitable from day 1, it's hard to justify expansion. slightly underbuild it and you can order more trains.

The trick is finding the balance of what people are willing to accept and what will be the most efficient use of hardware.

P3s are not "Build it and they will come"

[djh]

Originally Posted by tintinium

I think what is most disappointing to me about the frequency is the perception that from the view of joe public.

The one advantage of lower frequency is perception.

Fuller trains give a perception that the trains are being well-used and the money wasn't wasted. Which, indeed they will be.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there. For this line, real-world ridership is not something that can be accurately modelled yet, we have to wait and see what the usage is like when the line is running, at various points in the day. If translink have their heads screwed-on, they will adjust the frequency after monitoring the usage for a while.

I'd rather hear, pre-opening, that they are going to launch with low train frequency, and then translink increase it "due to high demand", rather than announcing a crowd-pleasing high-frequency, then once the system is running we are flooded with press stories of empty trains running most of the day, and what a huge waste of taxpayers money the extra trains were.

[squeezied]

copied and pasted from mr.x on ssc, this is too big a news not to be mentioned here!

i love you Sam!!!!




Mayor to kick-off effort to extend Millenium Line.
Sep, 14 2007 - 8:50 AM

VANCOUVER/CKNW(AM980) - Vancouver’s mayor will officially kick-off his effort to extend the Millennium Line to Arbutus and maybe even UBC.

Sam Sullivan will announce he'll begin consultations with various stakeholders in October.

"I am planning to lead a series of round tables to develop the concept and to develop the public support for this important initiative."

The mayor says the congestion along the Broadway corridor is a nightmare for commuters.

“We believe there's a very good business case and an environmental case for this."

Sullivan says he also supports construction of the proposed Evergreen Line for the northeast sector.






Possible delay for long-awaited Evergreen Line getting mixed reactions
Sep, 14 2007 - 9:00 AM

VANCOUVER/CKNW(AM980) - The possibility of yet another delay for the long-awaited Evergreen Line linking Burnaby, Port Moody, and Coquitlam is getting a mixed reaction in the tri-cities.

Some people say buses and the existing West Coast Express service are all they need.

However others say a delay would be yet another slap in the face for the transit needs of the northeast sector.

"The priority seems to be the RAV Line in Vancouver and Richmond and all the rest of it and the tri-cities are ignored."

He says Translink and the province are treating people here like second-class citizens compared to Vancouver.







Translink says Evergreen plans much further along than Millennium extension
Sep, 14 2007 - 9:10 AM

VANCOUVER/CKNW(AM980) - Translink's Ken Hardie says planning for the Evergreen Line is much further along than the Millennium Line extension, however they still are $400 million short for the Evergreen Line.

"The Evergreen Line is the one that's furthest along on our list of things to do. We have the corridor, the technology, a lot of that work has been done. We’re now waiting for partnerships BC to conclude their review of the business case to see if this project makes a good possible P-3. At the same time we've launched a three-phase study to look at the Broadway corridor to find out what's next, what do we do beyond VCC-Clark on the Millennium Line?"








Burnaby mayor Dereck Corrigan calls Sullivan's plans "selfish."
Sep, 14 2007 - 9:40 AM

VANCOUVER/CKNW(AM980) - He says there's no way a Millennium Line extension and the long-overdue Evergreen Line can be funded and completed in the same generation.

Corrigan - a longtime critic of the Canada Line - says extending the Millennium Line won't reduce congestion on the roads.

"There’s many communities in Metro Vancouver that have been waiting to get some kind of service that's going to help take commuters off the highway. And for Sullivan to say, well Vancouver again should get the line, just seems to be awfully egotistical and awfully self-centered on the part of Vancouver."

He also questions how Translink would come up with the additional money.





As is, the slug called the Evergreen Line wouldn't do much in helping relieve road congestion anyway.

And selfish? Wasn't Corrigan the one that was against the Canada Line purely because he wanted the Northeast Sector line to be completed first? Didn't the eastern half of the region already get two lines??? There's already two lines serving his city, Burnaby.

He also ignores the facts that there are already 100,000 people using the Broadway buses each day, and 60,000 use the 99 B-Line. The 99 B-Line is becoming more and more incompetent year after year as ridership grows. If buses already run at frequencies of a minute and less at peak hours, what would it be like in 2011? The Broadway corridor is already quite congested from all the buses.

it just really aggravates me how there are some (hopefully only a few) people who are so stubborn and bent on something so inferiour solely because it was "promised" first. i simply can't understand why anyone would advocate that the northeast sector is in a much greater need for a line when the obvious is right in their faces. screw the northeast, they can wait. i've never riden on the 97 b-line nor do i know much about it in general, but i can say with certainty it's nowhere as crowded at the 99 b-line.provided that my assumption is correct, how then can anyone advocate for the e-line to go first? it makes absolutely no sense practically and logically. it could be said that it guides the way for suburban density but that should not outweigh the need broadway suffers. why is the attention on the suburbs when there's an even more severe problem in the core? priortize the suburbs, ignore the core --- that sounds dangerously akin to the 50's surburban movement imo...

ok i just wiki'd 97 b-line, as quoted, "the line carries over 6000 passengers daily"... 6000 passengers for a LRT, that sounds like a luxury to me considering there are over 100,000 passengers(and a large portion of whom are university students with heavy backpacks) crammed into buses on broadway. for corrigan to dismiss sullivan as selfish is completely ignorant beyond measure, either that or he just doesn't give a damn about other cities' needs(the e-line does serve burnaby albeit a small portion). i'd like to think of the situation as this: there's this old grandma who's in need of a wheelchair because all the stress she's accumulated over the years has severely weakened her legs and then there's her grand daughter who wants a bmw because she was promised one. one's a need, the other's a luxury... which one should have more priority over the other?

i should end rant here

one last thing would be corrigan's an assh le!!

alright im done

[npinguy]

And BTW, what was this protest I heard of at UBC against a new plaza and a bus tunnel? What sort of anti-everything nihilist would be against it. It seems sadly too many University students are protesting just to protest.

Often the case, but not this time. I'm now an alum, but the project was voted on while I was still in school.

_NOBODY_ likes it.


Here are the reasons:

1) Aesthetically, it just doesn't vibe with the idea of UBC. What does that mean? I couldn't tell you. But if you went to UBC, that kind of idea just doesn't seem to jive

2) Everyone already resents the ENDLESS housing that UBC is building up all around campus that are THEORETICALLY designed for students, but practically are only affordable to the REALLY well off, and end up having the campus be overrun with non-students.

3) People are fiercely protective of the grassy knoll. Again, if you didn't go to UBC, it's hard to explain why. It's just exactly what the name says - the grassy knoll. But ask any student or alum - they all have some sort of brilliant memory associated with it

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by squeezied

copied and pasted from mr.x on ssc, this is too big a news not to be mentioned here!



it just really aggravates me how there are some (hopefully only a few) people who are so stubborn and bent on something so inferiour solely because it was "promised" first. i simply can't understand why anyone would advocate that the northeast sector is in a much greater need for a line when the obvious is right in their faces. screw the northeast, they can wait. i've never riden on the 97 b-line nor do i know much about it in general, but i can say with certainty it's nowhere as crowded at the 99 b-line.provided that my assumption is correct, how then can anyone advocate for the e-line to go first? it makes absolutely no sense practically and logically. it could be said that it guides the way for suburban density but that should not outweigh the need broadway suffers. why is the attention on the suburbs when there's an even more severe problem in the core? priortize the suburbs, ignore the core --- that sounds dangerously akin to the 50's surburban movement imo...

ok i just wiki'd 97 b-line, as quoted, "the line carries over 6000 passengers daily"... 6000 passengers for a LRT, that sounds like a luxury to me considering there are over 100,000 passengers(and a large portion of whom are university students with heavy backpacks) crammed into buses on broadway. for corrigan to dismiss sullivan as selfish is completely ignorant beyond measure, either that or he just doesn't give a damn about other cities' needs(the e-line does serve burnaby albeit a small portion). i'd like to think of the situation as this: there's this old grandma who's in need of a wheelchair because all the stress she's accumulated over the years has severely weakened her legs and then there's her grand daughter who wants a bmw because she was promised one. one's a need, the other's a luxury... which one should have more priority over the other?

i should end rant here

one last thing would be corrigan's an assh le!!

alright im done

nice

I live in coquitlam and i see the bline go past all the time and its never that full - compared to the broadway busses that are standing room only

I agree its a waste to have to put something in just cause it was promised first

the NE sector is served well by the west coast express and there are many connections to the lougheed and braid skytrains from teh area

its not that vital for an LRT yet

but i guess they want it doen while it would still be cheap or whatever

there is growing support though for changing the route to run along lougheed instead of via port moody

[Canadian Mind]

so is that a potential ridership of 160 000 a day? that sounds to me like a fairly large number, would skytrain be able to cope? Or will we have station extensions for millennium line through to the expo line... and even towards Vancouver proper?

[mr.x]

not to mention that the 97 B-Line uses 40 feet buses, and it's never full (or not often)......but the 99 with its crazy frequencies and 60 foot buses is often full.

[David]

The 97 B-Line sucks. Plain and simple. From the prospective of a bus rider who has no knowledge about urban development, it is the biggest time waster and completely inefficient. The 169, 151 and 152 will all get you to the Skytrain in less time, and as such, NOBODY rides the 97 from Coquitlam Station to Lougheed Station. And that is why I also oppose the Evergreen Line. People waiting at Coquitlam Station just want to get to the Skytrain ASAP. That's why there are always long lines waiting for the 169 which takes 20 minutes on the best of days and no more than 30 on the worst. We don't want to go on some winding 40 minute adventure through Port Moody and Burquitlam before we reach the Skytrain.

[Architype]

The city really needs the Millenium Line extension to make an adequate and convenient system. The downside is the cost and the amount of construction havoc that comes along with it.

[agrant]

They should just bore the whole thing and mine out the stations. Sounds less dissruptive anyway. They'll have to bore part of it for sure.

[raggedy13]

Originally Posted by npinguy

Often the case, but not this time. I'm now an alum, but the project was voted on while I was still in school.

_NOBODY_ likes it.


Here are the reasons:

1) Aesthetically, it just doesn't vibe with the idea of UBC. What does that mean? I couldn't tell you. But if you went to UBC, that kind of idea just doesn't seem to jive

2) Everyone already resents the ENDLESS housing that UBC is building up all around campus that are THEORETICALLY designed for students, but practically are only affordable to the REALLY well off, and end up having the campus be overrun with non-students.

3) People are fiercely protective of the grassy knoll. Again, if you didn't go to UBC, it's hard to explain why. It's just exactly what the name says - the grassy knoll. But ask any student or alum - they all have some sort of brilliant memory associated with it

Personally I haven't looked into this project as much as I should considering this is my fourth year living on campus, but from what I have seen I don't know why people are so against it.

UBC doesn't have a vibe. The whole campus has been developed in such a hodge-podge manner with no sense of cohesion/unifying design principles. Most buildings are stand-alone attempts at unique architecture that relate little to their surroundings and even less to neighbouring structures and are at this point in time largely dated looking. A larger scaled plan such as what is proposed would go a long way in making sense of the campus core. University Blvd as it now stands is a useless eyesore and little more than a giant parking lot at its center (and not even an easily accessible one at that).

I don't know why people give a damn about housing being built around campus or having more non-students around. It allows for smarter, denser, more sustainable mixed-uses of existing campus lands which otherwise aren't really being used to their full potential. With the campus being as large and sprawling as it is, more efficient land use couldn't hurt. It's not like there isn't more room for classrooms/student housing. The campus is huge! And as a significant benefit to students, more permanent residents in the area will bring with it more retail and transit options. I would love to see a real grocery store on campus. It's a bitch having to walk and bus in what ends up being a nearly 1 hour round trip affair to get to the Safeway on 10th and then having to trudge back across campus with your arms/backpack laden with groceries. Your arms are about to fall off by the time you get in your door. And it doesn't help that I go through 8 liters of milk a week. If there was a closer full size grocery store on campus you could take more frequent trips equating to having to buy less per trip and therefore saving yourself both time and energy.

I don't know what the deal is with the grassy knoll. I don't think I've ever even sat on it before in my life. Personally I kind of find it annoying as it blocks the most direct route to get to and from the SUB and the bus loop. Why should I have to walk around this thing all the time just so that a handful of people can enjoy sitting on it during their breaks for the 2 months out of the school year when it isn't pissing rain. Anyways, that's all for my rant.

[mr.x]

^ it's my first year at UBC, i can certainly say there is a vibe there....it's hardly explain.....and i do really like that grassy knoll, hard to explain why either. i've had a few lunches with friends there already and there's just something about it.