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  #301  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2007, 7:05 PM
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Originally Posted by colemonkee View Post
Friday, is the DT News the only source for the 51 floors? If so, I'm hesitant to change the front page, given DT News' previous track record with getting facts and numbers straight.
It's the only source I've seen. Agreed that the DT News blurb may not be accurate. The Amidi Real Estate Group's website still says 48 stories.

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Originally Posted by colemonkee View Post
edluva, you're right, we are largely celebrating a surface level downtown that won't act like a true downtown like NY, Chicago or London for quite some time, if ever. But many of the people who have relocated to downtown LA are embracing the "urban" lifestyle as much as their personal situation allows them, driving their cars less, using public transportation more (though admitedly not nearly to the level used in other urban cities), and staying local more than they did before. My prediction is that as the downtown population grows and the amenities and choices of amenities within downtown grow with it, a growing percentage of those people will start to use downtown as a real downtown. I realize that percentage will grow very slowly over time, but that's the best we can hope for given our development history in LA. To me it seems like a waste of energy to try and become NY or London or Tokyo overnight. That shit just ain't gonna happen. But we can hope to make our streets a more pedestrian friendly and urban oriented, a little tiny bit at a time.
I agree with your comments. In my opinion, it's not fair to compare downtown LA by itself to places like Manhattan, London or Tokyo. It'll never measure up (at least in our lifetime). I'm one of those few people who dove in head first to the "downtown lifestyle". I live/work downtown, sold my car, and usually stay near downtown on the weekends - where I walk everywhere. Downtown LA isn't incredible yet, but let me point out something WONDERFUL about living downtown - city accessibility via transit!!

I often visit other immediate neighborhoods like Koreatown, downtown Hollywood, Sunet/Vine and Los Feliz Village. These areas are all accessible by subway and they're all growing with new projects/retail. Throw in Old Town Pasadena, downtown Long Beach and NoHo Arts District, all accessible by rail from downtown, and they're all growing. Even Santa Monica, Beverly Hills, Westwood and Miracle Mile are all accessible by the rapid 720 line, which is actually reliable (35 mins flat from downtown to Westwood during non-peak hours). Downtown Culver City will be accessible by 2010. By living in downtown, we have easy transit access to all the great areas of the city and no one needs a car or a local bus. It is very much a fun urban experience for me. I wouldn't be able to do this anywhere else in Los Angeles. Add to that, all of the exciting projects that are coming soon!

That's not to say I'm naive in thinking LA doesn't need to improve it's transit system for everyone, everywhere. That's a whole other discussion, but I'll be the first to point out if you live on the Westside and work in the Valley... it's your own fault.
     
     
  #302  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2007, 7:17 PM
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Los Angeles is growing at a faster pace than New York City, London, Tokyo
with almost 100 skyscrapers invisioned in city.

Put it this way, by 2050, New York City will be 9,000,000
Tokyo will be 10,000,000
Los Angeles will be 6,500,000

Don't believe me, look at the quarterly pace of growth. Its no exaggeration.
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  #303  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2007, 9:16 PM
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Edluva, your right about the lack of real transit infrastructure here in LA, the result of many years of neglect, lack of vision, and bad planning. And this lack doesnt help the "quality of life" in LA and surely has contributed to the "brain drain" out of california being more acute in Los Angeles as was recently written about here. Having a real mass transit rail system on par with other world class cities is a fundamental requirement for the quality of life here to improve. Think of all the tax money that has gone into building and maintaining the Freeway system, and the city roads and our car culture. Think if instead a significant portion of that tax investment had gone into developing a real rail system here - that was fast, efficient and served most areas of Los Angeles - what a difference that would be. The longer we avoid the reality of this necessity, the worse congestion and sprawl and all that that entails will get. The longer we opt for short-term solutions to this real problem the worse it will get.

Yes, some shiny new skyscrapers will not make LA into an urban dream, but thats not all that this forum is about. People here understand the complexity of the situation, and though sometimes getting excited about a new building may seem superficial, most here understand the problems LA faces yet still hope for a better, more urban future for this city of ours. Yes dont go crazy with excitement, or be unrealistic about the reality, but to have hope for a better future and to get excited about moves towards this future - is a good thing.
     
     
  #304  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2007, 3:17 AM
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Originally Posted by colemonkee View Post
we are largely celebrating a surface level downtown that won't act like a true downtown like NY, Chicago or London for quite some time, if ever.

oh, hell, I'd be happy if many ppl at least start comparing the hood favorably with DT san Diego. IOW, you gotta begin by taking baby steps & THEN trying to shoot for the top.

And, again, I'm referring to the POVs of ppl, inc various forumers (from the midwest or east coast, among other places), who gush over SF, gush over SD, but hold their noses when it comes to LA.
     
     
  #305  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2007, 3:40 AM
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BTW, for those who love talking about highrises that are tall and shiny and expensive and city-like (that includes me!!) , the web site of the parkfifth proj indicates their bldg will be 850 ft tall, making it the 3rd tallest in DT, 3rd tallest in LA. The only other skyscrapers that will be taller are the Library tower, at over 1018 ft, & the AON bldg, which is 858 ft tall.

Another thing I didn't know about the parkfifth proj is that the hotel portion will include space sold as a combo of extended stay hotel & condo type rms. I know that's a popular format [a timeshare] for bldgs in resort settings like Hawaii or Vegas----don't know how that will be received in DTLA.

And I hope one of the reps for the proj, who sounds like he's way overestimating future growth figures, isn't a sign the devlprs are pie in the sky type of ppl. Or ppl who might pull an Astani on everyone, where groundbreaking will occur and then...pfffftt. Or, worse, groundbreaking will be delayed so long that no one will even remember there was a parkfifth proj to begin with.


Downtown L.A. Developers Betting Against Condo Slowdown

By KEELEY WEBSTER
CREJ Staff Writer

Now that the condominium market in Los Angeles has been "normalized" for nearly a year, contrarian developers are constructing the tallest high-rise residential buildings that downtown Los Angeles has seen. Within a few weeks of each other, Houk Development Co. and capital partners Africa Israel and Namco Capital Group announced plans for the $1 billion Park Fifth, a high-rise condominium development and hotel that will have 732 units and 218 hotel rooms.

Developer Meruelo Maddux Properties has said it's moving forward with plans for a 36-story, $120 million condominium tower in downtown Los Angeles' South Park neighborhood. Both developers have timed their projects to come out of the ground and be completed in the same time frame.

"There is a huge renaissance occurring downtown," said Rich Marr, a project manager at Brentwood-based Namco Capital Group Inc. "We are not pioneers. We are looking at what has already happened downtown."

The project that would overlook Pershing Square was originally entitled as a mixed-use development with an office component in 1990, said David Houk, founder of Houk Development Co. Those plans, called Pershing Square Center, comprised a 700,000-square-foot tower with a hotel and retail component. Then the recession of the early 1990s hit just as financing for the project was coming together and Houk shelved plans for the project.

Houk and his capital partners decided now was the time to dust off the entitlements and move forward with a project that replaces office space with a condo-hotel project. Marr discounts talk that absorption in existing downtown condominiums has ground to a halt, rattling off numbers that indicate what he said would be a normal market in most places. "There has been an 8 percent year-over-year increase in pricing and an average 89-day holding period for units on the market," Marr said. "That is a normalized market anywhere else."

Price points have been set in Park Fifth to appeal to many levels of demand. The units, which range from 500-square-foot studios to 3,000-square-foot penthouses, are priced from $400,000 to $3 million. Marr is also banking on the 10 million square feet of office space within a one-mile radius of the project located on the corner of Fifth and Olive streets, just across from Pershing Square, to help stock the buying pool. "It may be a CPA who works late three nights a week or a guy like me who's an empty-nester and would rather have a place in the desert and another one that is close to work," Marr said. "There are a lot of different lifestyles and a lot of very successful projects in South Park."

The sales center, which will include life-sized models of its 732 condominiums, opens this summer. Groundbreaking is planned for first quarter 2008.

Betting on the Hotel Market

It's not just the downtown residential market that the Park Fifth joint venture is banking on, however. As a condo-hotel project, Park Fifth is also dependent on the health of the hotel industry. Park Fifth joins a slew of other hotel developers building in Los Angeles, where 965 units are projected to be completed by the end of 2007, according to Marcus & Millichap Real Estate Investment Services.

"Downtown L.A. is maturing. There is not a midweek hotel business," Marr said. "The average occupancy was 76 percent for the trailing 12 months. That is pretty good in the hotel business." Occupancy levels that high can't be achieved by just booking rooms on the weekend, said Marr, adding that this is an indication that business and convention guests are increasing midweek.

While both L.A. Live and Grand Avenue are receiving subsidies to make their hotels work, Marr said his model will work without them. "We are selling hotel rooms as condos. L.A. Live has condos sitting on top of hotels," Marr said.

Buyers will purchase the hotel rooms, but are only allowed to use them 28 days a year. The rest of the time, the rooms will be available to be rented out to hotel guests. "It's easier to finance this model because the financing is based on the fact that we are selling the rooms," Marr said.

Marr said he has so much faith in downtown Los Angeles' hotel market that his company purchased the 469-room Los Angeles Marriot Downtown, located at 333 S. Figueroa St., from an affiliate of Blackstone Real Estate Acquisitions V LLC for an undisclosed price. This was a deal separate from the joint venture involved in the Park Fifth project. "We plan to invest a significant amount of money renovating that property," Marr said.

Marr, who said he has done a comprehensive analysis of the market, predicted that room rates three times as high as the current average could be achieved by the time the project opens in 2008. But Alan X. Reay, president of Atlas Hospitality Group, called a projection in which rates triple over the next few years "simply unrealistic."

In 2005, the average daily rate for Los Angeles County was $104. In 2006 it went up to $113, an increase of 9.5 percent. For 2007, Atlas is projecting it to increase by about 8 percent and around 5 to 7 percent for 2008. "That is a far cry from tripling in the next few years, which would mean an average rate of over $350," Reay said.

Last edited by citywatch; Jun 7, 2007 at 3:19 PM.
     
     
  #306  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2007, 4:07 AM
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Originally Posted by citywatch View Post


Marr said he has so much faith in downtown Los Angeles' hotel market that his company purchased the 469-room Los Angeles Marriot Downtown, located at 333 S. Figueroa St., from an affiliate of Blackstone Real Estate Acquisitions V LLC for an undisclosed price. This was a deal separate from the joint venture involved in the Park Fifth project. "We plan to invest a significant amount of money renovating that property," Marr said.

Marr, who said he has done a comprehensive analysis of the market, predicted that room rates three times as high as the current average could be achieved by the time the project opens in 2008. But Alan X. Reay, president of Atlas Hospitality Group, called a projection in which rates triple over the next few years "simply unrealistic."

In 2005, the average daily rate for Los Angeles County was $104. In 2006 it went up to $113, an increase of 9.5 percent. For 2007, Atlas is projecting it to increase by about 8 percent and around 5 to 7 percent for 2008. "That is a far cry from tripling in the next few years, which would mean an average rate of over $350," Reay said.
Am I reading this right? Did the reporter make a huge dumbfuck mistake? Marr is talking about DT LA rates tripling and then Reay (with obvious vested interest) cites rates for LA County to refute Marr's claim? Why in the world would anyone think that the two are comparable? Seems like the kind of thing a reporter should catch.

Or I'm an idiot, sometimes that's true too.
     
     
  #307  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2007, 4:24 AM
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^ If anything that may mean Marr, who has the vested interest, is really stretching his estimates, because hotel booking rates tend to be better for the county than just for DT alone. IOW, if rates for hotels throughout LAC aren't going to be tripling, then it's even less likely the ones for DT will be doing better, or even as well.

And the term I couldn't remember til just now for hotel rms that are sold to a group of buyers, & that are shared throughout the yr, is CO-OP. Still not sure how well the devlprs of parkfifth will do in promoting that type of accomodation.
     
     
  #308  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2007, 4:38 AM
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Originally Posted by citywatch View Post
^ If anything that may mean Marr, who has the vested interest, is really stretching his estimates, because hotel booking rates tend to be better for the county than just for DT alone. IOW, if rates for hotels throughout LAC aren't going to be tripling, then it's even less likely the ones for DT will be doing better, or even as well.
I'll take your word for it. So long as Marr's project isn't absolutely dependent on the hotel market tripling this isn't necessarily bad is it?

If I may ask a stupid question: why would hotel booking rates be higher countywide? I can understand areas in hollywood, santa monica, maybe pasadena, etc but countywide? I guess I was just surprised.
     
     
  #309  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2007, 7:47 AM
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Marr is talking about a specific building that is being renovated having tripled room rates in three years. Not hard to believe. The reporter probably misquoted him to Reay and Reay reacted with the countywide stats.

The reporter likely did it on purpose to generate some conflict in his article.
     
     
  #310  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2007, 9:15 AM
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Originally Posted by cava View Post
Edluva, your right about the lack of real transit infrastructure here in LA, the result of many years of neglect, lack of vision, and bad planning. And this lack doesnt help the "quality of life" in LA and surely has contributed to the "brain drain" out of california being more acute in Los Angeles as was recently written about here. Having a real mass transit rail system on par with other world class cities is a fundamental requirement for the quality of life here to improve. Think of all the tax money that has gone into building and maintaining the Freeway system, and the city roads and our car culture. Think if instead a significant portion of that tax investment had gone into developing a real rail system here - that was fast, efficient and served most areas of Los Angeles - what a difference that would be. The longer we avoid the reality of this necessity, the worse congestion and sprawl and all that that entails will get. The longer we opt for short-term solutions to this real problem the worse it will get.

Yes, some shiny new skyscrapers will not make LA into an urban dream, but thats not all that this forum is about. People here understand the complexity of the situation, and though sometimes getting excited about a new building may seem superficial, most here understand the problems LA faces yet still hope for a better, more urban future for this city of ours. Yes dont go crazy with excitement, or be unrealistic about the reality, but to have hope for a better future and to get excited about moves towards this future - is a good thing.

Well said
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  #311  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2007, 3:26 PM
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If I may ask a stupid question: why would hotel booking rates be higher countywide? I can understand areas in hollywood, santa monica, maybe pasadena, etc but countywide? I guess I was just surprised.

I know that til at least not too long ago hotels in DT had the lowest booking rates in LA county, meaning that even when all the different hoods in the county were averaged together, DT still would come up short. but if timquinn is correct about what the rep from one of parkfifth's investors actually was describing, then that's a relief. I'd hate to see devlprs of such a huge proj going in with their eyes wide shut.

And the term that I've been trying to remember all night long is...TIMESHARE. Not co-op. Duh! & do'h! to me.
     
     
  #312  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2007, 3:51 PM
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^ I think you guys are reading too much into that article. The only thing you can do effectively is wait and see. Everything else will be a waste of energy.

On another note, upon a recent visit to Seven Grand, I noticed that virtuall all the courtyard units at the Gianinni Building will directly face the outdoor smoking patio of Seven Grand, with some windows being no more than 20 ft. or so from the patio. With Seven Grand open (natch!) seven days a week, I wonder how they will deal with noise issues there. From my experience (which is pretty thorough), not a bar in the world exists after 12:30 p.m. without at least two loud, drunken idiots either speaking too loudly or causing a general ruckus. I bet this is something we hear a lot about when Gianinni opens.
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  #313  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2007, 7:08 PM
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The transit system here is laughable.
Does anybody know what happened to 3 California Plaza, and does any developer want to revive the proposal to build it?
It would be taller than AON Center, just a block north of Park Fifth.
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  #314  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2007, 8:16 PM
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It's hardly laughable. We had no rail system in 1988. LA still has a way to go in terms of connecting downtown altogether and getting a subway to the Westside but I've think we've done pretty well.
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  #315  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2007, 8:27 PM
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Originally Posted by citywatch View Post
[/b]
I know that til at least not too long ago hotels in DT had the lowest booking rates in LA county, meaning that even when all the different hoods in the county were averaged together, DT still would come up short. but if timquinn is correct about what the rep from one of parkfifth's investors actually was describing, then that's a relief. I'd hate to see devlprs of such a huge proj going in with their eyes wide shut.
The commonly used term is "occupancy rates" rather than "booking rates," which could be confused for "daily room rates." Downtown has typically had low occupancy rates, but not the lowest daily room rates.

My interpretation of the article is that the developer believes that by renovating the Marriott and bringing it up to 4-5 star status, they will be able to achieve daily room rates for that property which are up to 3 times higher than they are currently. It still seems unlikely, but I guess it's not totally out of the question with sufficient money if they made it into a 5 star property or something.
     
     
  #316  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2007, 10:10 PM
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It's hardly laughable. We had no rail system in 1988. LA still has a way to go in terms of connecting downtown altogether and getting a subway to the Westside but I've think we've done pretty well.
Agreed. We have a ways to go, but we've done well considering the lack of public support over the years.
     
     
  #317  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2007, 4:45 PM
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From SkyscraperCity:

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Originally Posted by MR STAPLES CENTER View Post
June 7th 2007 UPDATE












Is this new? ive never noticed this lcd panel on staples:nuts:
     
     
  #318  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2007, 2:23 AM
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I just walked by the Sky lofts bldg and noticed a banner for a new restaurant...Tranquility Base. Looks cool.

BTW, the LCD for Staples has been there since at least March.
     
     
  #319  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2007, 7:54 PM
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The problem right now is that LA isn't ready to truly embrace urbanity. The current zoning laws, while perhaps densifying the city, aren't doing anything to make it more pedestrian friendly. Density is unrelated to pedestrian accessabilty nor height, and as long as new developments are forced to incorporate 2.5 parking spaces per unit, and mixed use isn't the norm, LA is going to remain an auto oriented city.
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  #320  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2007, 11:13 PM
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The problem right now is that LA isn't ready to truly embrace urbanity. The current zoning laws, while perhaps densifying the city, aren't doing anything to make it more pedestrian friendly. Density is unrelated to pedestrian accessabilty nor height, and as long as new developments are forced to incorporate 2.5 parking spaces per unit, and mixed use isn't the norm, LA is going to remain an auto oriented city.
Actually, they are doing something to make LA a more pedestrian-friendly city, and it's starting downtown. There's are just decades of bad planning to undo... it will take time:

Paving the Way
Effort to Make Downtown More Walkable Takes Big Step This Week
by Evan George

When the city's Planning Commission released a fiery memorandum in April, under the banner "Do Real Planning," one concern rose to the top. "Demand a walkable city," read its first sentence.

The wide sidewalks at 11th and Grand, part of South Group's housing project, exemplify the pedestrian-friendly design standards the Planning Department is pushing. The South Group effort includes benches, planters and double rows of trees. Photo by Gary Leonard.
That's easier said than done. Many officials praise so-called smart growth, yet few planning regulations mandate it.

But on Thursday, June 14, in a presentation before the Planning Commission, city planners will unveil how they intend to actualize that demand, starting with Downtown. It marks the first official report for a project charged with implementing widespread design changes to Downtown streets.

If approved and adopted, the new effort, known as the Downtown Urban Design Guidelines and Standards, could mean that developers who are currently asked to widen streets for cars could instead be required to create wide, tree-lined pedestrian walkways and paseos for foot traffic.

Read the rest of the article here.
     
     
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