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  #1881  
Old Posted Jan 1, 2007, 6:08 AM
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EDC’s Connect2Edmonton—C2E—continues to grow. With more than 600 members in nine countries, it has become one of the best means of learning and informing about what’s happening in Edmonton, sharing ideas about the city, commenting on current topics, introducing new ones, and promoting the city’s many attributes. You can vent there too.

C2E’s latest contest, “Great Ideas for a Greater Edmonton,” ran in October and November, and the results should be available about the same time this column appears. As EEDC Director of Communications Kenn Bur put it to me, “This concept is really without precedent as it’s an attempt to gather up ideas from everyone who cares about Edmonton, big and small, that could improve our community. Perhaps most importantly, there will be a process with C2E volunteers to prioritize the top-10 ideas to transform our region from good to great.” The list should be interesting and likely constructive; and one of the people who contributed to the list will be rewarded with a trip for two from Edmonton to London Heathrow, with Air Canada’s non-stop service between the two cities. If you haven’t checked out C2E, it’s definitely worth a visit: www.connect2edmonton.ca/

I suppose it’s understandable that large-scale urban redevelopment is almost always controversial. Century Park, for example, faced open hostility from some people because of its size. Yet once approved, its first residential phase, One Century Park, sold out in six hours, and I expect that the second phase, Regent at Century Park, will more-or-less follow suit. What I find puzzling, however, is the opposition to a proposed development that will be esthetically harmonious and significantly superior to what currently exists on the site. I’m referring to the Humanity Projects’ proposal for western edge of Glenora—the area bounded by Stony Plain Road on the south, 103 Avenue on the north, 140 Street on the east, and 142 Street on the west.

The project, sitting on 4.1 acres of land, the majority of which is currently commercial or vacant (and yes, a couple of single-family homes are on the site as well), will combine residences with commercial services as well as park space with a formal garden and water feature. More specifically it would feature five slim, rounded towers of descending heights (18 to 10 storeys)—up to 255 condo units, 75 brownstone townhomes, main floor retail and second floor professional offices, a park with formal garden and central water feature, pedestrian mews, widened sidewalks and an entrance plaza, rooftop gardens, full landscaping, and public art. The renderings I have seen indicate that the project encompasses conspicuously upscale architecture by Brinsmead Ziola Kennedy, which also is responsible for the distinctive and visually pleasing Omega and Icon condos downtown, among other projects. The tallest tower, at 18 floors, is no higher than the existing Crescent Place just east of the site; it was constructed in 1968.
I do understand that change can sometimes be difficult to embrace. But when that change is a demonstrable improvement on something that currently exists, it should be welcomed. Edmonton is in fact a growing city, not just in terms of its population but also in sophistication. This project, in my view, reflects that. I truly hope it goes ahead.

David Norwood is a freelance writer/editor. Contact [email protected] Click here to see archive editions of Civic Buzz by David Norwood
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  #1882  
Old Posted Jan 1, 2007, 5:21 PM
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HAPPY NEW YEARS ALL....


What did you guys.. or gals? (we have any?) do last nite?
     
     
  #1883  
Old Posted Jan 1, 2007, 5:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SunCoaster View Post
/\ Come on Edmonton think BIG for a change ... Edmonton has lots of 'low' high rises (10 - 20 stories) all the way from 105 Street to 124 Street ... so, tis well past time for 20 stories to be the MINIMUM .... 30 story minimum even better ... and, dare Edmonton dream of some 40 story + towers ... particularly in the core !!!

Not trying to create controversy but, construction of new 10 -20 story buildings in Calgary and Vancouver are hardly even noticed these days with attention instead focusing on 30 - 40 -50 - 60+ story buildings ... so, does Edmonton consider itself in the same league as those 2 cities ... or, does Edmonton consider itself in the same league of much smaller Western Canadian cities (eg. Regina, Saskatoon, Victoria etc.) where construction of new 10 - 20 story buildings are big deal?

You're right.

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Originally Posted by Coldrsx View Post
^a nice 15-20 storey id take in a second over a mediocre, sasso cough, 30 storey.
You're right too.

But it doesn't have to be one or the other (tall and ugly or short and pretty). We need both tall and pretty. If developers don't take Edmonton seriously then the rest of the country won't either. Nobody outside of Edmonton will notice another 20 story building.
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  #1884  
Old Posted Jan 1, 2007, 6:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danby View Post
HAPPY NEW YEARS ALL....


What did you guys.. or gals? (we have any?) do last nite?
Partied it up at a Ukrainian hall party.

Yourself?
     
     
  #1885  
Old Posted Jan 1, 2007, 7:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Coldrsx View Post
^a nice 15-20 storey id take in a second over a mediocre, sasso cough, 30 storey.
I agree. Once again, formers fascination with height blows my mind. As I have clearly stated in the past, a good urban environment is created / established on the first 2-5 floors. Everything else after that is decoration. Some of the greatest cities in the world are not 'highrise' cities ~ Paris, Geneva, etc.
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  #1886  
Old Posted Jan 1, 2007, 7:42 PM
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Quote:
Nobody outside of Edmonton will notice another 20 story building.
height seems of less importance whenever I check out the Vancouver thread
     
     
  #1887  
Old Posted Jan 1, 2007, 7:48 PM
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there are many wicked buildings under 20 storeys....but i do agree we need a 30 + architectural icon:>

as for new years, im in van with my girl.
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  #1888  
Old Posted Jan 1, 2007, 8:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goodlookin' View Post
height seems of less importance whenever I check out the Vancouver thread
I always notice on the Vancouver thread that lots of people say, Damn we need an 800' tower to make this city great.

It is true though that height is not important to the quality of the urban environment. Design is paramount. That is why I really don't care if Calgary ever gets a 1000' building as long as the designs are great. With EnCana, City Centre and potentially FCC2, this is definitely happening.

I think that really noticable or landmark towers can have an important psychological effect though. Skyscrapers and skylines are important symbols of our time.
     
     
  #1889  
Old Posted Jan 1, 2007, 8:23 PM
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^bingo, although portland is recognized as a very good city for urban design and doesnt really have a skyline....same with many european cities.

However, in NA and Asia, it is all about size of your ______ skyline.
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"The destructive effects of automobiles are much less a cause than a symptom of our incompetence at city building" - Jane Jacobs 1961ish

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  #1890  
Old Posted Jan 1, 2007, 8:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldrsx View Post
as for new years, im in van with my girl.
you're in a van, down the river with your g/f? I thought you said you had a condo with a view, but I had NO idea
     
     
  #1891  
Old Posted Jan 1, 2007, 11:55 PM
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Cold, when are you back in Edmonton?

I'm back from Van on the 2nd this week.
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  #1892  
Old Posted Jan 2, 2007, 12:04 AM
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Just a FEW factors that prevent tall condos or offices from being built in downtown Edmonton:

- labour shortage
True

- labour costs
True

- sprawl: Edmonton just keeps getting wider and fatter...no reason to build up.
On average it cost more money to maintain streets in Edmonton than it costs other cities around the world due to our unpredictable winters.

- only 10-15% of North Americans really want to live downtown anyhow
That is not true, there is a silent portion of the population that would like to live downtown but can't find anything that meets their needs. I wanted to live downtown but I couldn't find any place that was big enough to raise a family in so I was forced to compermise and live in a house on a bus route to downtown.

- commodity prices/material cost
True

- lack of a skyscraper-quality glass manufacturer in Edmonton
I recall All Weather Windows once had a contract with China in the 90's to supply windows to a large resicentaial project. There are many window manufactures in Edmonton so it wouldn't be hard to find one willing to retool a factory to produce skyscraper quality glass.

- oil prices
True in it's current state, but this issue could be solved if the city of Edmonton worked with the provincial government, or invested in oil.

- zoning regulations that don't work for a particular site
Very true, they need to be updated.

- developers that don't care to take risks
The 80's should be a distant memory by now, it's time for new decision makers to take the helm.

- lack of head offices moving to the city
True but there are many home grown companies that are growing.

- most of "office" and Edmonton economy is suburban and being built in new suburban business parks
Almost all industrial offices are connected to the plants that product the product.

- difficulty of doing main floor retail downtown...has taken 25 years for downtown to recover from drain that is WEM
Progress is being made but more work needs to be done.

- anxiety about the future
The only anxiety Alberta has to worry about is the Kyoto agreement.

- developers that don't believe in Edmonton for highrise condos
Developers, WAKE UP!

- problems getting concrete and steel considering all the other infracstucture projects on the go. ei. AH drive construction push caused delays in concrete deliveries of 3-6 months
Other provinces need to pitch in and fill the void, expecially when it comes to steel.

- problems getting a general contractor to even bid on the project...many projects are 6month to a year behind schedule as the backlog builds.
We need to broaden the scope on this one by asking contractors from outside of Alberta to help out.

- land prices that are pushing developers profit margins down
Alot of developers already have land to build on.

- politics
We need to keep the record straight so that we don't loose track of where we are going.

- long term planning that has some of these built in the next 10-15 years...rather than now
True, it's more like wait 15 years and build at the last minute or find another excuse to delay it further. (Stationlands)
However, Century Park is on schedule.

- forgettableness of downtown does not inspire suburban developers to see what potential downtown has
True, see point 3, 4, 9, 13

- land owners that are sitting on property...for like 50 years
Very true, we need bylaws that will encourage activity. This could be increased adminstration fees for land owners who don't live in Edmonton. (if they don't live here then they don't care) Look at the Printz building on Jasper Ave.

- land owners that are making more money for their parking lot than selling it
True, we need bylaws that will discourage using parking lots as a revenue source.

- geographic situation
This is debateable.

- airport overlay (superficially)
The Muni needs to be downsized, and transport Canada needs to update it's flight regulations over Edmonton.

- development of Plans such as Downtown East, North Edge Study, update of Capital City Downtown Plan causes many stakeholders to take a "wait and see" approach.
True, we need to make things run faster in government.

- etc, etc, etc.
     
     
  #1893  
Old Posted Jan 2, 2007, 1:39 AM
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Greenspace.

Yes there are many factors that are impacting profitability, but to say we are in the position were you can not make money in a downtown condo development, I don't buy. If that was the case we would not be seeing any of these dinosour paced developments.

All those things you listed can be blamed for the high prices, but people are still buying them faster than ever. Thats the key. If we were to see the next significant tower come along and claim they need $450-500/sqft to see an average roi, and it didn't sell enough units, then fine. We could then say that land and labour costs are to blame.
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  #1894  
Old Posted Jan 2, 2007, 3:13 AM
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Quote:
I always notice on the Vancouver thread that lots of people say, Damn we need an 800' tower to make this city great.
I do visit infrequently, however, rarely do I see discussions pretaining to specific projects dominated by how tall it could be

Quote:
Skyscrapers and skylines are important symbols of our time.
our time of superficialities and faceless suburbs - it must be true
     
     
  #1895  
Old Posted Jan 2, 2007, 4:00 AM
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There are MANY factors you fail to realize. It is not a simple black-and-white issue. I am getting tired of people talking about things they really know nothing about. Sure it's fun to ponder what "could" or "should" be done, but I can tell why people are getting tired of this particular thread...same old talk. Get with it already...Edmonton is NOT skyscraper central.

Just a FEW factors that prevent tall condos or offices from being built in downtown Edmonton:
- labour shortage
- labour costs
- sprawl: Edmonton just keeps getting wider and fatter...no reason to build up.
- only 10-15% of North Americans really want to live downtown anyhow
- commodity prices/material cost
- lack of a skyscraper-quality glass manufacturer in Edmonton
- oil prices
- zoning regulations that don't work for a particular site
- developers that don't care to take risks
- lack of head offices moving to the city
- most of "office" and Edmonton economy is suburban and being built in new suburban business parks
- difficulty of doing main floor retail downtown...has taken 25 years for downtown to recover from drain that is WEM
- anxiety about the future
- developers that don't believe in Edmonton for highrise condos
- problems getting concrete and steel considering all the other infracstucture projects on the go. ei. AH drive construction push caused delays in concrete deliveries of 3-6 months
- problems getting a general contractor to even bid on the project...many projects are 6month to a year behind schedule as the backlog builds.
- land prices that are pushing developers profit margins down
- politics
- long term planning that has some of these built in the next 10-15 years...rather than now
- forgettableness of downtown does not inspire suburban developers to see what potential downtown has
- land owners that are sitting on property...for like 50 years
- land owners that are making more money for their parking lot than selling it
- geographic situation
- airport overlay (superficially)
- development of Plans such as Downtown East, North Edge Study, update of Capital City Downtown Plan causes many stakeholders to take a "wait and see" approach
- etc, etc, etc

BULL SHIT........Calgary has the same issues if not worse around construction and labour....as well as costs and planning might be marginally better. It's the sleepy hollow mind set and the perception that Edmontons downtown is lacklustre. Why in the hell would Procura go ahead and work on Century Park when they have Fabulous realestate downtown that they could develop?
     
     
  #1896  
Old Posted Jan 2, 2007, 4:07 AM
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Further more I think that Century Park will actually hurt downtown development. Although it is a nice Project those people should be downtown. That project should be behind Boston Pizza on 107 not out in the burbs. It will be the West Edmonton Mall phenomenon for Condos. All teh good retailers were sucked from being in the core to the mall.......why are they looking at so much infill and redevelopment like heritage mall, stony plain rd and 142 st, and strathern before we get rid of some of the hundreds of parking lots we have downtown.
     
     
  #1897  
Old Posted Jan 2, 2007, 4:30 AM
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I was thinking about Century Park. Although a cool TOD, what if something of that scale were downtown? That would be transformative.
     
     
  #1898  
Old Posted Jan 2, 2007, 4:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by josh white View Post
I was thinking about Century Park. Although a cool TOD, what if something of that scale were downtown? That would be transformative.
Aurora should be nice for 3-4 towers. Others things in the North Edge project hopefully. I'm curious to find out whats going to happen with Downtown East revitalization.

As for the empty lots north of jasper around 107 st, yes, condos/office towers should already be filling in this space
     
     
  #1899  
Old Posted Jan 2, 2007, 5:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldrsx View Post
^bingo, although portland is recognized as a very good city for urban design and doesnt really have a skyline....same with many european cities.

However, in NA and Asia, it is all about size of your ______ skyline.

Athens has a lot of old looking 7 to 10 story buildings but collectively makes up a cool and very dense city.

Edmonton has a pretty good skyline for its size. Lets get some density.
     
     
  #1900  
Old Posted Jan 2, 2007, 5:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supai View Post
Athens has a lot of old looking 7 to 10 story buildings but collectively makes up a cool and very dense city.

Edmonton has a pretty good skyline for its size. Lets get some density.
Athens is a city that is thousands of years old halfway around the world... not much comparison there. Athens also has the advantage of having the Acropolis as its skyline.

Density is great, but having more skyscrapers wouldn't be a bad thing in Edmonton's case. Some people see them as superficial, but I think of them as symbols (of power, wealth, ambition, ego, etc... as opposed to government buildings which tend to be brutalist fatscrapers). For North America, the skyline is the face of the city. It's there to say "Hello!" as you are approaching the city, and a part of a city's character. Edmonton should celebrate what it does right, but that can easily turn into complacency.

Edmonton, IMHO, should always strive to be bigger than it is.
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Last edited by Boris2k7; Jan 2, 2007 at 5:23 AM.
     
     
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