Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by someone123

They are proposing to lease the land from the city. The stadium construction itself would not involve public funds, at least according to the initial pitch. So I don't think the municipality has a lot of leverage to make demands.

It's an interesting question how this might be designed to be expandable but it's for the Wanderers and isn't necessarily tied up with any speculative CFL project.

Free land and not using the land for a city parking garage (forgone revenue).

Making demands is one thing, but I doubt it would pencil with a more substantial stadium.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Free land and not using the land for a city parking garage (forgone revenue).

Is it free land? They are proposing to lease the site, upgrade the field itself, and make thousands of additional hours of field time available to community groups. They are proposing to build a 650 space parking garage; there is currently no parking on this site. Details are currently limited.

I'd guess that economically the promoters and team are able to generate far more revenue from this site than the municipality ever would have. It was previously a poorly maintained weedy lot with occasional amateur rugby teams playing there and dog walkers. Citizen groups ("Friends of the..") used to demand nothing be done with this site but the Wanderers have shown what is possible, creating politically viable options that weren't there before.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by someone123

Is it free land? They are proposing to lease the site, upgrade the field itself, and make thousands of additional hours of field time available to community groups. They are proposing to build a 650 space parking garage; there is currently no parking on this site. Details are currently limited.

I'd guess that economically the promoters and team are able to generate far more revenue from this site than the municipality ever would have. It was previously a poorly maintained weedy lot with occasional amateur rugby teams playing there and dog walkers. Citizen groups ("Friends of the..") used to demand nothing be done with this site but the Wanderers have shown what is possible, creating politically viable options that weren't there before.

The city could choose to build the parking garage.

Someone else building it on a city asset is not a neutral proposition.

I doubt the lease revenue to the city will be anywhere near what it would be if the same project without a stadium was built.

That doesn't mean the project is bad. Just that it needs to be compared to something other than 'do nothing'.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

The city could choose to build the parking garage.

Someone else building it on a city asset is not a neutral proposition.

I doubt the lease revenue to the city will be anywhere near what it would be if the same project without a stadium was built.

That doesn't mean the project is bad. Just that it needs to be compared to something other than 'do nothing'.

This is well understood as the concept of opportunity cost, but an analysis would rely on details that are not public.

As somebody who follows this saga and municipality closely, I don't agree that we can know ahead of time that the private Wanderers proposal must require some kind of net municipal subsidy to be viable. Actually it is very likely the municipality can get more utility and revenue out of this land parcel with this private partner. I think it's premature to frame this as municipal largesse or a generational publicly-led project.

One factor is that it is a public common with specific zoning requirements. It has to have a public use, for example, and it cannot be sold. Most of the common land around there has been underused for decades.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by someone123

This is well understood as the concept of opportunity cost, but an analysis would rely on details that are not public.

As somebody who follows this saga and municipality closely, I don't agree that we can know ahead of time that the private Wanderers proposal must require some kind of net municipal subsidy to be viable. Actually it is very likely the municipality can get more utility and revenue out of this land parcel with this private partner. I think it's premature to frame this as municipal largesse or a generational publicly-led project.

One factor is that it is a public common with specific zoning requirements. It has to have a public use, for example, and it cannot be sold. Most of the common land around there has been underused for decades.

The city can change the zoning.

It is pretty clear that the parkade is paying for the stadium. That is fine. But it is also a choice.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

The city can change the zoning.

No. The province set this rule in 1749. People would not allow it.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by someone123

No. The province set this rule in 1749. People would not allow it.

Who is the government, but the people.

[jonny24]

As much as I'd love the CFL to have a team in Halifax - they've had what, 40 years to do it and accomplished nothing?

They (who even? there's no ownership group anymore) can't complain or demand future accommodations from someone who actually is saying "we'll do it ourselves".

The only that happens is if someone real comes in and puts up another $50 million of their own money.

[someone123]

Well, there's one group who said they are trying to build some kind of suburban entertainment district with a large stadium. Then there are the Wanderers and owner who want to improve their facilities that are in use for the CPL. The municipality is always involved for development servicing and approval, and they're extra involved with the Wanderers because that site is on municipal land.

I'm not sure what to make of narratives of how beggars can't be choosers or it took too long, etc. There are proposals that come forward and they work out or they don't. The city isn't obsessed with the CFL, but I think it could be successful. There isn't political will for large amounts of funding because there are a bunch of other municipal priorities and HRM council is like a herd of cats while the province does not care. There doesn't seem to be any single wealthy prospective owner who is interested in creating a team. But these things can change. I'm sure the economics are very different now compared to 10 or 20 years ago, and the city has grown a lot.

[Wpg_Guy]

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[trueviking]

Seems wild to pay $100m for a soccer league that could vanish at any moment.

[Dalreg]

Originally Posted by trueviking

Seems wild to pay $100m for a soccer league that could vanish at any moment.

Or hundreds of millions on a league that is doing it's best to self implode?

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Halifax building a stadium that could accommodate both a CFL and a CPL team seems to make sense to me. What doesn’t make sense is to invest in a new stadium designed for one sport over the other.

[Drybrain]

The Halifax project is not a CFL stadium, nor is it intended to be. It shouldn't be judged based on "can it be a CFL stadium." There is no CFL franchise in the city nor any credible proposal for one. There IS a very popular soccer outfit that's proposing to self-finance a stadium, and honestly, if I were involved with The Wanderers, it would be incredibly frustrating to watch people acting like the main question about this is "but what about football?"

The Wanderers are not going to pay for a CFL-ready stadium, and it's their money. The city is not going to pitch in to enlarge the project for a hypothetical CFL team that may never exist. It's not even clear the location is large enough. The project should be evaluated based on what it is, not what it isn't.

[jonny24]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

The Halifax project is not a CFL stadium, nor is it intended to be. It shouldn't be judged based on "can it be a CFL stadium." There is no CFL franchise in the city nor any credible proposal for one. There IS a very popular soccer outfit that's proposing to self-finance a stadium, and honestly, if I were involved with The Wanderers, it would be incredibly frustrating to watch people acting like the main question about this is "but what about football?"

The Wanderers are not going to pay for a CFL-ready stadium, and it's their money. The city is not going to pitch in to enlarge the project for a hypothetical CFL team that may never exist. It's not even clear the location is large enough. The project should be evaluated based on what it is, not what it isn't.

Completely agree, and I say this as someone who loves CFL football and can't actually stand watching soccer (although I wish the CPL all the success possible, I wish Canadians supported Canadian leagues better in all sports).

[someone123]

Originally Posted by trueviking

Seems wild to pay $100m for a soccer league that could vanish at any moment.

The Wanderers are owned by a company called Sports and Entertainment Atlantic that is behind a lot of local events. They are also planning for the venue to be used for concerts or other similar events and to be used by local community groups. They have been quite successful and propose to invest their own capital so I would imagine that they have put thought into this proposal.

Halifax is under-served by this type of infrastructure and there are a lot of existing local events that attract a large number of people but don't have amenities like permanent washrooms. I'd argue that this is one of a few areas where the infrastructure in Halifax is below what you'd expect for a medium-sized regional capital.

If this is built they said it could be configured for CFL and have some expanded temporary seating. I don't think it would be built "for the CFL", but it might be usable as a proof of concept for a CFL team similar to what this site has been for the Wanderers. If that's not good enough for the CFL then I would start to wonder if they are being realistic.

[Wpg_Guy]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

Any update on Jets new dressing room and player facilities? I'm really curious on the branding. If they went with the 70s logo that basically confirms the rebrand

Originally Posted by Wpg_Guy

No photos of the finished room yet — just this recent press release on the overhaul (new medical/therapy space, S&C, circadian lighting, extra 3,000 sq ft, tunnel to the visitors’ bench, etc.). I don’t think they’re dropping the current primary logo. The 70s one will stay an alternate/heritage mark.

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Winnipeg Jets[/I][/SIZE]

[Wpg_Guy]

theprettyreckless

[zoomer]

/\ Nice photos Wpg guy - AC/DC in Winnipeg, perhaps only rivalled by AC/DC in Edmonton in terms of match made in heaven. I saw some pics from a friend in Edmonton who went to AC/DC and looks like he and the entire crowd was having a blast.

As for the Canadian stadium discussion - let's be honest, our stadiums generally —, and that's probably ok, it's a choice we've obviously made based on what we value. In terms of football our two largest cities have stadiums.. well, let's just leave it there, but at least Montreal has an interesting location. Ranking all stadiums, including baseball I'd have to rank them as Skydome (yep, old school) first mainly because of the revamped restaurants/bars, etc plus the experience of a large stadium especially when the roof is open. Second is BC Place, looks good from the outside, especially at night, great location, and feels big league even though built in the 1980's. Third is Commonwealth, sure, the track and being too far from the field, but it has classic lines, looks great in aerial shots and the seating pattern with the yellow flicks in the upper levels is awesome. Fourth I'd go with Winnipeg - looks good for an 'affordable' stadium followed by Regina, I'd probably rank Regina higher if the outside design and location wasn't so bleak, inside looks like a party though. Next we'll go Hamilton, followed by Toronto (CFL) Ottawa, Montreal with Calgary bringing up the rear. So three of the four biggest cities in the country have seriously substandard football stadiums.

As for $100 million cost of the stadium in Halifax, that's seriously affordable and I can't see why anyone would object to that, although I understand the concern about use of public land. Your average run of the mill residential tower nowadays is $100 million, heck, the replacement of the swimming pool in Victoria has a $200 million dollar budget, and that seems to be the ballpark range for a 50 metre pool/fitness/community facility.

Maybe there is a place for partial public funding of stadiums, but not NHL arenas. Credit to the Canucks ownership though, despite being labelled as cheap they paid the full fare for their arena with no public funds.

[cjones2451]

Originally Posted by Wpg_Guy

theprettyreckless

Hard to believe this used to be the singer of the Petty Reckless